ebikes on new trains unable to be stored correctly

[alxndr]

The issue with that is that adapting trains is quite expensive. For example, back when the 80x fleet was being specced and produced, e-bikes weren’t even a thing. I understand several have detachable batteries though?

Most of the additional weight comes from the motor. The battery isn't light, but it's also not massively heavy.

 

[laseandre]

Can you elucidate? Surely the only ways that anybody can get on or off any train is via doors on the side.

Are you talking about ‘letting yourself into trains’ that are stabled in platforms with the doors locked before staff arrive?

Regardless, using a T key as a member of the public is maybe not the most advisable thing to do (or post on a public forum about)...

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Regardless, using a T key as a member of the public is maybe not the most advisable thing to do (or post on a public forum about)...

Indeed, WHAT protocol would kick in there for me! If a compartment or door on a train is locked, nobody but the Conductor/Guard/Train Manager has permission to unlock it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed, WHAT protocol would kick in there for me! If a compartment or door on a train is locked, nobody but the Conductor/Guard/Train Manager has permission to unlock it.

While we can't condone this, invoking an anti terror protocol (assuming I understand correctly what that means) when a passenger has unlocked an internal door to an area of the train that is already accessible to them is just wasting Police time.

The sensible action would be to tell the passenger they shouldn't do that next time, and ensure when you see a cyclist boarding you proactively go and do it for them rather than just watching them struggle

As for the T key there is nothing illegal about owning one; there are plenty of non railway applications for a square key. If the railway is concerned about that it needs to install proper locks on trains accessed via patented security keys so they can properly control who has them. It's really not hard, my house is fitted with such locks.

The best thing for these areas is probably just to remove the doors.

 

[laseandre]

While we can't condone this, invoking an anti terror protocol (assuming I understand correctly what that means) when a passenger has unlocked an internal door to an area of the train that is already accessible to them is just wasting Police time.

The sensible action would be to tell the passenger they shouldn't do that next time, and ensure when you see a cyclist boarding you proactively go and do it for them rather than just watching them struggle

As for the T key there is nothing illegal about owning one; there are plenty of non railway applications for a square key. If the railway is concerned about that it needs to install proper locks on trains accessed via patented security keys so they can properly control who has them. It's really not hard, my house is fitted with such locks.

The best thing for these areas is probably just to remove the doors.

How are you going to ensure that they don't repeat the same actions, short of getting BTP involved? I'm all ears... The point still stands that, while owning such a key is perfectly legal, using it on the railway as a member of the public (and posting about doing so) is perhaps not the wisest course of action.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

While we can't condone this, invoking an anti terror protocol (assuming I understand correctly what that means) when a passenger has unlocked an internal door to an area of the train that is already accessible to them is just wasting Police time.

The sensible action would be to tell the passenger they shouldn't do that next time, and ensure when you see a cyclist boarding you proactively go and do it for them rather than just watching them struggle

As for the T key there is nothing illegal about owning one; there are plenty of non railway applications for a square key. If the railway is concerned about that it needs to install proper locks on trains accessed via patented security keys so they can properly control who has them. It's really not hard, my house is fitted with such locks.

The best thing for these areas is probably just to remove the doors.

Whilst the protocol is aimed at anti-terrorism, it should be used in any situation where someone is acting in a suspicious way or attempting to access an area they should not be.

There will likely be a reason a door is locked, regardless of the other door being open.

I reported someone yesterday as they had a t-key and we're messing with the internal cab door (class 350). Yes it's not illegal to have such a key, but using it on a doorway that is locked surely should raise suspicious no?

Whilst the situation the post I was referencing doesn't quite come under suspicious activity where BTP should be involved, I do think there should be a line drawn where you don't do that sort of thing.

Fans of the railway do themselves more harm then good fairly frequently with their intimate knowledge of all things railway and if we don't say that this sort of thing is unacceptable, maybe someone will do something which seriously gets them into trouble.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Whilst the protocol is aimed at anti-terrorism, it should be used in any situation where someone is acting in a suspicious way or attempting to access an area they should not be.

They are permitted to access the area, and there's nothing remotely suspicious about someone with a bicycle trying to ease access to their reserved bicycle space. Seriously?

There will likely be a reason a door is locked, regardless of the other door being open.

The fact that nobody has thought to unlock it, I bet you fifty quid.

I reported someone yesterday as they had a t-key and we're messing with the internal cab door (class 350). Yes it's not illegal to have such a key, but using it on a doorway that is locked surely should raise suspicious no?

I'd agree if they were trying to access a cab, absolutely, that is suspicious as they have no reason to do so. Whereas someone with a booked bicycle does have a reason to access their booked bicycle space!

Whilst the situation the post I was referencing doesn't quite come under suspicious activity where BTP should be involved, I do think there should be a line drawn where you don't do that sort of thing.

Fans of the railway do themselves more harm then good fairly frequently with their intimate knowledge of all things railway and if we don't say that this sort of thing is unacceptable, maybe someone will do something which seriously gets them into trouble.

Probably true, but the real fix here is to either take those doors off or ensure staff proactively assist with bicycle loading. People only use their own keys in this situation because the staff are failing in their duties. See also proactively checking the aircon is working on 166s and if not opening the windows before anyone else does. I've done that with my house key and as I've said before, in a train where the interior had reached well over thirty degrees, I would stand up in Court and defend having done so, and counter-allege a serious H&S breach by the TOC.

Some enthusiasts are mucking about and should not be encouraged, but mostly it's because the railway is failing to provide the relevant assistance. It's bad enough at doing it for wheelchair users where a failure is potentially a serious breach of equality law, so it shouldn't design bicycle accommodation that requires any kind of intervention to access it.

And it should absolutely, 100% change T-key locks to something actually secure.

 

[Harpers Tate]

Ebikes don't have to weigh so much that one can't (easily, or at all) lift them. Mine is around 15kg which is similar to an unassisted mountain bike I had previously. And that includes a gearbox (as distinct from derailleurs) which on its own weighs about 2kg as well as the internal battery and motor (weight not known).

But lightness (and you can go as low as under 10kg) costs. Weight was a significant factor in my purchase choice.

I can't see legal EBikes (i.e. those that are within the current restrictions on power and speed) ever being recategorised as motor vehicles. It would either
- result in a huge degree of lawbreaking (as happens already with EScooters and with those illegal EBikes that will happily propel themselves) which would not actually be enforced any more than those very EScooters and self propelled bikes
or
- involve registration, insurance, and a number plate, and the mandatory wearing of a substantial helmet. That would simply kill the (legal) market stone dead. And put more people back into their cars.

It's the same old debate. We have a supposed "green" agenda and targets. We have a supposed "active travel" agenda and targets. Travel by (assisted or not) bike + train + bike to reach a given destination is arguably part of the approach that should be taken. And that, in turn, means that loading a bike onto a train needs to be easier and more reliable (as was the case in the past with room for 10-15 in every 2- or 3-car DMU. But that costs space and/or seats and/or money.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's also worth noting that the vast majority of battery fires happen when charging. Ensuring there isn't a socket in the bike area (and if there is plating it over or providing USB only) will mitigate that fairly well.

 

[occone]

Thanks all for the replies. Interesting thoughts on the topic.

It's very turn-of-the-last-decade (and even current) DfT thinking: designing for tall, slender people who can lift their feather-light curly-handlebar racing bikes into the racks. It's not just e-bikes that struggle to fit in. Try fitting in any decently-sized family cycle, or anything with a basket, or anything with wide handlebars.

By chance I came across the IEP train technical specification when looking at something else, which I believe is what was used when scoping the 800s.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/82840/tts-redacted.pdf

I thought I'd see if they specified the bike storage and sure enough:

TS1667: "Bicycle: Full size ‘road’ bicycle with 25inch frame"

I'm not an expert but I believe that road bikes are the ones you describe with the curly handlebars. So they quite literally don't design these for leisure bikes with the flat handlebars, and it is from leisure bikes that ebikes have grown out of. I guess racers don't want or need a heavy battery and motor!

Then again the train designers didn't appear to go a centimetre beyond the minimum specification either...

 

[VC00]

Regardless, using a T key as a member of the public is maybe not the most advisable thing to do (or post on a public forum about)...

I don't see a problem - many other cyclists have such a key and post about it on other forums. If you have a reservation then it's fair game, if staff would rather have a chat than do their job then I don't see the problem with open a door to avoid scratching an expensive bike.
I think one of the bigger problem here is the lack of effort put in by most staff, all over the railway

 

[banjo125]

It's also worth noting that the vast majority of battery fires happen when charging. Ensuring there isn't a socket in the bike area (and if there is plating it over or providing USB only) will mitigate that fairly well.

The problem there is the sockets in the vestibules are designed for use by the cleaners, so that would create an issue there

 

[Bletchleyite]

The problem there is the sockets in the vestibules are designed for use by the cleaners, so that would create an issue there

Sockets not for public use should be locked. With a proper secure key, not a T key.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

With 80x I would suggest repurposing the stupid bike spaces as luggage space for end to end journeys (locked on departure for security) and adding new bike spaces elsewhere. Space for three bikes would cost about six seats, two of which would be the unpleasant windowless ones at the end, and a luggage rack could be fitted above it.

On GWR’s 5-car 800s you don’t even have to lose any seats: take out the unused kitchen, replace it with bike spaces and a small additional catering store if needed. Diagram the Pullmans so they’re always 9-car units. (This will apparently disadvantage the three Pullman customers going to Carmarthen. I’m sure the world can cope.)

 

[JohnMcL7]

For those who don't know - ebikes are considerably heavier than traditional pushbikes as they have a battery and electric motor. For the scope of this discussion, ebikes are the ones that are pedal assisted, and fully in line with UK law.

Many trains (including the new 800s hitting the rails as we speak) have small cupboards that require the user to lift upright and then hang their bike vertically from a giant hook. The issue is that with the sweeping popularity of ebikes, a lot of people are unable to lift their bike due to the weight and thus unable to correctly stow their bikes on board.

It's common to see bikes (ebikes and pushbikes alike) just stored horizontally into the bike spaces, and the issue is the bike spaces aren't long enough which means a wheel or handlebars end up sticking out by the doors. Not only does this look messy it can be an obstruction.

It seems that being able to lift your bike upright was either an assumption or oversight the designers made with the 800s. Either way, these vertical storage spaces are already obselete and I don't see ebikes going anywhere soon given they let basically anyone cycle. It seems a shame when new trains are already obselete in any regard.

What's the solution? Should people wanting to take the train longer distances than they can cycle with their bike take/get a car instead? Can 800s be modified? Do we just put up with the inadequate storage space on board the soon-to-be ubiquitous 80x trains?

It's not just ebikes, I don't think there's any chance I'd get one of my MTBs into those bike slots either and I wouldn't take my road bike on a train unless I could see it while sitting. While it would be great to be able to take the bike more on the train my solution has to be to take the car unfortunately. Although I'm pleased Scotrail have added four proper bike slots to their HSTs and improved their booking system now to easily check for availability.

 

[ruaival]

If these "hang up your bike" style lockers were introduced in France or Spain it would be less challenging with the greater number of lighter road racing style bikes you see regularly there.

Our chunkier mountain bikes and touring bikes with racks for pannier luggage are much harder and have only really enjoyed travelling in the Guards van (BR) or HST power car space on longer journeys back in the day, even 2 side by side opposite the wheel chair on Class 323 or 331 regional Northern services isn't great.

What we need is a more enlightened specification to start with - like
Öresundståg (Southern Sweden and nearby Denmark - 9 bikes per train) - which has half a carriage of only tip-up seats along the side for bikes priority use ... or even Seattle buses where 4 bike racks are fixed to the front of every bus for areas not served by the train.