ebikes on new trains unable to be stored correctly

[occone]

For those who don't know - ebikes are considerably heavier than traditional pushbikes as they have a battery and electric motor. For the scope of this discussion, ebikes are the ones that are pedal assisted, and fully in line with UK law.

Many trains (including the new 800s hitting the rails as we speak) have small cupboards that require the user to lift upright and then hang their bike vertically from a giant hook. The issue is that with the sweeping popularity of ebikes, a lot of people are unable to lift their bike due to the weight and thus unable to correctly stow their bikes on board.

It's common to see bikes (ebikes and pushbikes alike) just stored horizontally into the bike spaces, and the issue is the bike spaces aren't long enough which means a wheel or handlebars end up sticking out by the doors. Not only does this look messy it can be an obstruction.

It seems that being able to lift your bike upright was either an assumption or oversight the designers made with the 800s. Either way, these vertical storage spaces are already obselete and I don't see ebikes going anywhere soon given they let basically anyone cycle. It seems a shame when new trains are already obselete in any regard.

What's the solution? Should people wanting to take the train longer distances than they can cycle with their bike take/get a car instead? Can 800s be modified? Do we just put up with the inadequate storage space on board the soon-to-be ubiquitous 80x trains?

 

[bob007]

Trains should absolutely adapt to the times. But in this current climate the trains aren’t really being run as a public service for a public good, so I can’t envisage much changing soon.

 

[Bletchleyite]

With 80x I would suggest repurposing the stupid bike spaces as luggage space for end to end journeys (locked on departure for security) and adding new bike spaces elsewhere. Space for three bikes would cost about six seats, two of which would be the unpleasant windowless ones at the end, and a luggage rack could be fitted above it.

Alternatively to locking the space CCTV could be fitted with a display showing it in the adjacent coach.

 

[Pigeon]

Many trains (including the new 800s hitting the rails as we speak) have small cupboards that require the user to lift upright and then hang their bike vertically from a giant hook.

That has never been an acceptable form of bicycle stowage whether the bicycle is electric or not. Just because someone is using a bicycle to address the "other end" problem inherent in railways doesn't automatically mean they must be a weightlifter as well.

 

[142blue]

How are escorted banned but an electric bike isn't

Not an area I'm that clued up on

 

[Tevion539]

As far as I'm aware, at least here in Wales, e-bikes and e-scootees with lithium batteries are banned because of fire hazards.

 

[alxndr]

As far as I'm aware, at least here in Wales, e-bikes and e-scootees with lithium batteries are banned because of fire hazards.

TfW say e-bikes are permitted.

Electrically assisted pedal cycles (e-cycles or e-bikes) are also allowed on our services under the same terms as standard pedal cycles. E-scooters however are not allowed on our trains.

I recently discovered that just trying to get some e-bikes onto the platform at some stations without lifts is a mission in the first place. I'd taken my partner's bike instead of my own and although they're very similar weights (approx. 23kg) the distribution is different.

 

[Krokodil]

How are escorted banned but an electric bike isn't

Not an area I'm that clued up on

Ebike construction is better regulated.

I always found the similar bike spaces in Voyagers to be unusable - could never get my (perfectly ordinary) handlebars to fit.

 

[43096]

That has never been an acceptable form of bicycle stowage whether the bicycle is electric or not. Just because someone is using a bicycle to address the "other end" problem inherent in railways doesn't automatically mean they must be a weightlifter as well.

Is that why cyclists leave them anywhere except the designated bike spaces?

 

[plugwash]

With 80x I would suggest repurposing the stupid bike spaces as luggage space for end to end journeys (locked on departure for security) and adding new bike spaces elsewhere. Space for three bikes would cost about six seats

The elephant in the room with bikes on trains is that a cyclist takes up significantly more space than a normal passenger. You are essentially proposing two seats worth of space for the bike plus one for the person.

That is a pretty hard sell when cyclists pay the same as a regular passenger.

 

[172007]

How are escorted banned but an electric bike isn't

Not an area I'm that clued up on

Ebikes are expensive and are from well known brands who use quality controlled reputable battery manufacturers so are generally deemed a very low fire risk.

E-scooters are available on e-bay as well as the local market and are available in some case for less than £100 and are often cheap knock offs. The batteries are made as cheaply as possible by unknown manufacturers and statistical way more likely to catch fire because of this.

So that's why often e-scooters are banned but bikes not.

 

[Falcon1200]

The elephant in the room with bikes on trains is that a cyclist takes up significantly more space than a normal passenger.

An issue raised before, but then passengers with prams, pushchairs, large luggage (and as I saw the other day, two large planks of wood!) also take up more space; Trains should be able to accommodate us all.

 

[Tevion539]

TfW say e-bikes are permitted.


I recently discovered that just trying to get some e-bikes onto the platform at some stations without lifts is a mission in the first place. I'd taken my partner's bike instead of my own and although they're very similar weights (approx. 23kg) the distribution is different.

Hmm, I'll have to double check my documents. It might just be e-scooters then.

 

[ChrisC]

Ebikes are expensive and are from well known brands who use quality controlled reputable battery manufacturers so are generally deemed a very low fire risk.

E-scooters are available on e-bay as well as the local market and are available in some case for less than £100 and are often cheap knock offs. The batteries are made as cheaply as possible by unknown manufacturers and statistical way more likely to catch fire because of this.

So that's why often e-scooters are banned but bikes not.

The subject of unsafe batteries on cheap illegal e-scooters has been discussed at length over the last few months in a number of threads.

I have a folding e-bike which was extremely expensive and from a very reputable company and so I have no worries about the safety of the battery. When riding this e-bike on the flat I just ride it peddling as if on a standard cycle. As someone who has just taken up cycling in my 60’s, having not been in a bike for over 40 years, it’s great to have assistance on hills and when when starting off. My e-bike is quite an upmarket model and is fully automatic changing gears when necessary and the electric motor kicking in to help me when needed. However, although it does have an uphill boost button, I rarely use it and peddle as if on a normal cycle albeit with a bit of assistance up hills.

I’m not sure if some of these large wheeled e-bikes that I regularly see being ridden at speeds around towns, by a similar type of characters who ride the illegal e-scooters, have batteries that are from a reputable manufacturer like mine. They whizz along at speed on the flat with no peddling as though they are riding a motor cycle. I would imagine that many of these probably have even more doggie batteries than the e-scooters due to the size and power of them.

Most people who ride e-bikes are responsible people like me and they have been a great help to older cyclists. Let’s hope that they don’t get the same reputation as the e-scooters because of misuse by those less responsible.

 

[jon0844]

Ebikes are expensive and are from well known brands who use quality controlled reputable battery manufacturers so are generally deemed a very low fire risk.

E-scooters are available on e-bay as well as the local market and are available in some case for less than £100 and are often cheap knock offs. The batteries are made as cheaply as possible by unknown manufacturers and statistical way more likely to catch fire because of this.

So that's why often e-scooters are banned but bikes not.

There is now a growing community of people modifying existing bikes to make them electric, using components from AliExpress and the like - so I do expect there to be issues with them in the future (indeed, e-bikes have caught fire on charge in people's homes already, with advice to not sleep when charging a bike and not to charge a bike in a hallway if that's your only means of escape).

As an e-bike owner myself, I'm concerned that we might end up with all electric assisted 'vehicles' banned if the Government can't find a way to properly regulate and enforce things, given most 'hacked' bikes are usually fitted with motors in excess of 250W and built with no speed limiting. As such, they're as illegal as the e-scooters we all love to hate.

Enforcement would of course be a problem, as you'd need the police to know how to identify an approved and unapproved/illegal bike. Clearly they're not going to consider doing any of that until such time there's an incident that causes a serious injury or death.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Apr 2023 ==

I’m not sure if some of these large wheeled e-bikes that I regularly see being ridden at speeds around towns, by a similar type of characters who ride the illegal e-scooters, have batteries that are from a reputable manufacturer like mine. They whizz along at speed on the flat with no peddling as though they are riding a motor cycle. I would imagine that many of these probably have even more doggie batteries than the e-scooters due to the size and power of them.

Most people who ride e-bikes are responsible people like me and they have been a great help to older cyclists. Let’s hope that they don’t get the same reputation as the e-scooters because of misuse by those less responsible.

This is the problem. Indeed, once people can't take e-scooters on any public transport, a lot more people are going to get e-bikes and there are more and more cheap e-bikes becoming available, which will see the problem cross over.

The Government has specific rules for e-bikes and they need to have a certification, possibly even registration system, to ensure the legal bikes aren't penalised for the many illegal ones that we will absolutely see in the coming years. The cost of all the components is falling all the time.

The only positive is that, hopefully, most people will see the benefit of using safe and approved motors and batteries for their own good - but I doubt the delivery drivers and county line drug dealers are going to want to shell out more than they have to.

 

[Krokodil]

but I doubt the delivery drivers and county line drug dealers are going to want to shell out more than they have to.

I find that the best way to refuse their e-scooters is to ask them for a ticket before leaving.

 

[JamesRowden]

Perhaps the simple solution is for society to class all electric powered or partially powered scooters and bikes as motorbikes, and enforce all of the existing motorbike restrictions and regulation on them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The elephant in the room with bikes on trains is that a cyclist takes up significantly more space than a normal passenger. You are essentially proposing two seats worth of space for the bike plus one for the person.

That is a pretty hard sell when cyclists pay the same as a regular passenger.

This isn't true except when the loading is precisely equal to the number of seats on the train.

When below, it's fine as those seats would be spare anyway.

When above, on peak trains, the bikes are usually banned and the space is used as standing room.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Apr 2023 ==

Perhaps the simple solution is for society to class all electric powered or partially powered scooters and bikes as motorbikes, and enforce all of the existing motorbike restrictions and regulation on them.

This would be a stupid idea.

 

[Oxfordblues]

The battery on my e-bike is easily removed and I stow it in my backpack before boarding a train. This makes my bike a pedal-cycle for the purposes of the train-operator.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’m not sure if some of these large wheeled e-bikes that I regularly see being ridden at speeds around towns, by a similar type of characters who ride the illegal e-scooters, have batteries that are from a reputable manufacturer like mine. They whizz along at speed on the flat with no peddling as though they are riding a motor cycle. I would imagine that many of these probably have even more doggie batteries than the e-scooters due to the size and power of them

I forget the name of the company but there is at least one reputable manufacturer of those "motorcycle style" ebikes.

 

[Horizon22]

Trains should absolutely adapt to the times. But in this current climate the trains aren’t really being run as a public service for a public good, so I can’t envisage much changing soon.

The issue with that is that adapting trains is quite expensive. For example, back when the 80x fleet was being specced and produced, e-bikes weren’t even a thing. I understand several have detachable batteries though?

Many argue even for regular bikes 80x aren’t suitable then we get into the old argument of how to balance luggage storage v bike storage v number of seats with a finite space.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Apr 2023 ==

There is now a growing community of people modifying existing bikes to make them electric, using components from AliExpress and the like - so I do expect there to be issues with them in the future (indeed, e-bikes have caught fire on charge in people's homes already, with advice to not sleep when charging a bike and not to charge a bike in a hallway if that's your only means of escape).

As an e-bike owner myself, I'm concerned that we might end up with all electric assisted 'vehicles' banned if the Government can't find a way to properly regulate and enforce things, given most 'hacked' bikes are usually fitted with motors in excess of 250W and built with no speed limiting. As such, they're as illegal as the e-scooters we all love to hate.

Enforcement would of course be a problem, as you'd need the police to know how to identify an approved and unapproved/illegal bike. Clearly they're not going to consider doing any of that until such time there's an incident that causes a serious injury or death.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Apr 2023 ==



This is the problem. Indeed, once people can't take e-scooters on any public transport, a lot more people are going to get e-bikes and there are more and more cheap e-bikes becoming available, which will see the problem cross over.

The Government has specific rules for e-bikes and they need to have a certification, possibly even registration system, to ensure the legal bikes aren't penalised for the many illegal ones that we will absolutely see in the coming years. The cost of all the components is falling all the time.

The only positive is that, hopefully, most people will see the benefit of using safe and approved motors and batteries for their own good - but I doubt the delivery drivers and county line drug dealers are going to want to shell out more than they have to.

The issue with the “hacking” as you call it and the lack of legislation makes e-bikes inherently more dangerous as they’re not up to electrical standards. It’s why many TOCs (the whole TfL network for example) have banned them after not insignificant fires on board or at stations.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The issue with the “hacking” as you call it and the lack of legislation makes e-bikes inherently more dangerous as they’re not up to electrical standards. It’s why many TOCs (the whole TfL network for example) have banned them after not insignificant fires on board or at stations.

Not a single TOC has banned ebikes. Please stop pushing this misinformation as several people on here keep doing.

Most TOCs have banned e-scooters, which no doubt isn't just because of battery fires but also because of their association with antisocial behaviour and drug dealing.

 

[Horizon22]

Not a single TOC has banned ebikes. Please stop pushing this misinformation as several people on here keep doing.

Most TOCs have banned e-scooters, which no doubt isn't just because of battery fires but also because of their association with antisocial behaviour and drug dealing.

Apologies for the confusion. So many e-products out there now! I did indeed mean e-scooters. I doubt the anti-social behaviour factor falls into it much or we’d be banning people not using headphones!

 

[Via Bank]

The issue with that is that adapting trains is quite expensive. For example, back when the 80x fleet was being specced and produced, e-bikes weren’t even a thing. I understand several have detachable batteries though?

Many argue even for regular bikes 80x aren’t suitable then we get into the old argument of how to balance luggage storage v bike storage v number of seats with a finite space.

It's very turn-of-the-last-decade (and even current) DfT thinking: designing for tall, slender people who can lift their feather-light curly-handlebar racing bikes into the racks. It's not just e-bikes that struggle to fit in. Try fitting in any decently-sized family cycle, or anything with a basket, or anything with wide handlebars. I don't know of a single person who actually likes these cupboards, and you can bet your bottom dollar it drives custom away from the railway.

 

[VC00]

Getting a bike on the 800s is hard to without scratching unless the side doors are open, usually staff don't bother so I got myself a "t-key" which manages to open and lock it fairly well

 

[Dr Hoo]

Getting a bike on the 800s is hard to without scratching unless the side doors are open, usually staff don't bother so I got myself a "t-key" which manages to open and lock it fairly well

Can you elucidate? Surely the only ways that anybody can get on or off any train is via doors on the side.

Are you talking about ‘letting yourself into trains’ that are stabled in platforms with the doors locked before staff arrive?

 

[Horizon22]

Can you elucidate? Surely the only ways that anybody can get on or off any train is via doors on the side.

Are you talking about ‘letting yourself into trains’ that are stabled in platforms with the doors locked before staff arrive?

I think they are referring to the bike storage cupboard on 800s, but not entirely clear.

 

[Towers]

The poster is referring to the two-door design of 80x cycle cupboards. There is a folding end door portion and then the main, sliding side door, both of which can be independently locked open or closed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's very turn-of-the-last-decade (and even current) DfT thinking: designing for tall, slender people who can lift their feather-light curly-handlebar racing bikes into the racks. It's not just e-bikes that struggle to fit in. Try fitting in any decently-sized family cycle, or anything with a basket, or anything with wide handlebars. I don't know of a single person who actually likes these cupboards, and you can bet your bottom dollar it drives custom away from the railway.

It's odd that nobody thought about the issue, as the 158 was as built lumbered with a similar awful design, and several TOCs have modified it to be more usable.

 

[Dr Hoo]

The 158 ‘cubby hole’ was primarily designed as a Red Star parcels ‘locker’, with use by cycles only if not needed (and to be controlled by reservations).