Attachments/detachments

[Jan Mayen]

I'm familiar with Southern services going from London Victoria to Horsham, then the front portion detaching and going fast down the Arun Valley, whilst the rear portion calls all/almost all stations to Bognor Regis. I'm sure there are many other examples of trains dividing enroute (such as the Caledonian Sleeper).
However are there any examples where a passenger train starts its journey at Station A, picks up an attachment en-route at Station B, followed by a detachment at Station C, then completing it's journey at Station D?

Many Thanks

 

[snowball]

As I mentioned in the "reverse formation" thread earlier today, in the 1970s there were trains comprising Liverpool-Glasgow, Manchester-Glasgow and Manchester-Edinburgh portions, joining at Preston and separating at Carstairs. They were loco-hauled and, after electrification was completed in 1974, they would also change locos at Preston, so each train would use one electric and three diesel locos for different parts of its journey.

 

[Krokodil]

TfW's 1D15 is booked to run as a four car from Birmingham to Chester, attach to another unit at Chester (ex-1D95) and detach that unit again at Llandudno Junction (for 1D70). It's not portion working though, with each attachment and detachment the extra unit is merely heading back whence it came so no one who arrives on the unit will remain on it for the next leg.

Where you really do see lots of complex portion working (at both ends of the journey, not just one) is with sleeper services on the continent. A sleeper train might leave station A with portions for stations C and D. At a junction it will meet with a train from station B which also has portions for C and D, joining the appropriate portions together before the two trains divide for their respective destinations. This was the plan for Nightstar.

 

[swt_passenger]

I'm familiar with Southern services going from London Victoria to Horsham, then the front portion detaching and going fast down the Arun Valley, whilst the rear portion calls all/almost all stations to Bognor Regis. I'm sure there are many other examples of trains dividing enroute (such as the Caledonian Sleeper).
However are there any examples where a passenger train starts its journey at Station A, picks up an attachment en-route at Station B, followed by a detachment at Station C, then completing it's journey at Station D?

Many Thanks

I think back in the mid 2000s, SWT had such a service. Something like an attachment at Exeter St David’s and a split at Salisbury into Waterloo and Portsmouth portions. Details are hazy now but someone might have a timetable. I think it came up in response to a similar question quite a while ago.

edited to add:

I’ve found it in the Feb 2007 CWNs, Sunday only:

1L68 1350 from Penzance and 1L66 1610 from Paignton joined at Exeter to form 1L68 1720 to Waterloo and Portsmouth Harbour. The ex-Penzance portion led the two 159s as far as Salisbury, the rear portion split to form 1Y68 to Portsmouth Harbour.

 

[SargeNpton]

There are no such advertised portion workings currently. Any that do attach/divide as per the OP will do so purely for operating purposes.

 

[Bartsimho]

This might need to be split into speculative but would a splitting London-Shrewsbury/Wrexham/Holyhead service via Birmingham service be there?

I guess the idea of a splitting service is to go from an area with only a few paths but lots of desired travel to and from to areas with more paths available.

 

[higthomas]

One of the reasons they supposedly went for so many 5 car IETs was that we'd get more through journeys to places like Paignton and Newquay by splitting them on-route to Penzance. Sadly that never happened, so we just ended up with trains which are either too short or have a whole wasted coach in the middle.

 

[norbitonflyer]

I'm familiar with Southern services going from London Victoria to Horsham, then the front portion detaching and going fast down the Arun Valley, whilst the rear portion calls all/almost all stations to Bognor Regis. I'm sure there are many other examples of trains dividing enroute (such as the Caledonian Sleeper).
However are there any examples where a passenger train starts its journey at Station A, picks up an attachment en-route at Station B, followed by a detachment at Station C, then completing it's journey at Station D?

Many Thanks

Certainly used to be. Taking overnight trains back in the 1980s you would often find on waking up in, say, Retford or Newcastle, that the newspaper vans that had been on the front of your train when you left Kings Cross were nowhere to be seen, but another lot of vans were now on the back.
Another example was the Fort William sleeper which, in Mark 1 days, left Euston on the rear of the Inverness sleeper, was detached at Mossend and taken round to Cowlairs (by whatever was to hand - could be a 40, could be a 20, but usually a 27), and then backed into Queen Street to be attached to the front of the morning train to Mallaig, from which it would be detached at Fort William.

 

[randyrippley]

When the 156s were first introduced on the NW-East Anglia route, on some services a 150 was added to the rear at Sheffield for the sprint down the MML as far as Langley Mill, where it came off.
The 156 then ran Nottingham-Grantham-Ely and beyond as express, I assume the 150 followed as a stopper.
Or maybe it was to avoid the risk of the MML getting blocked by a breakdown......?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Are there any multiple joinings and dividings on the mid-Wales route these days? For example a 158 from Birmingham International joining at Shrewsbury with another from the North or South, then splitting again at Machynlleth?

 

[43055]

I'm familiar with Southern services going from London Victoria to Horsham, then the front portion detaching and going fast down the Arun Valley, whilst the rear portion calls all/almost all stations to Bognor Regis. I'm sure there are many other examples of trains dividing enroute (such as the Caledonian Sleeper).
However are there any examples where a passenger train starts its journey at Station A, picks up an attachment en-route at Station B, followed by a detachment at Station C, then completing it's journey at Station D?

Many Thanks

0925 Penzance to Edinburgh starts off as a 1 unit then attaches to another at Bristol and then becomes a single unit again at Newcastle.

Realtime Trains | 1S49 0925 Penzance to Edinburgh | 20/04/2023

Real-time train running information for 1S49 0925 departure from Penzance to Edinburgh on 20/04/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Bartsimho]

Are there any multiple joinings and dividings on the mid-Wales route these days? For example a 158 from Birmingham International joining at Shrewsbury with another from the North or South, then splitting again at Machynlleth?

I don't think their are but a London-Shrewsbury/Holyhead which splits in Birmingham might be viable even if it stops at MKC, Northampton, Rugby, Coventry, Birmingham International before it reaches New Street with the Shrewsbury half stopping at Wolverhampton and the Holyhead half stopping at Stafford, Crewe, Chester, Rhyl, Colwyn Bay, Llandudno Junction and Bangor.
I also think it was in another thread discussing direct trains and easy changes that many people don't change even if it is easy so using less paths in the congested London area to serve more secondary Population Centres could be good.

 

[3141]

I think back in the mid 2000s, SWT had such a service. Something like an attachment at Exeter St David’s and a split at Salisbury into Waterloo and Portsmouth portions. Details are hazy now but someone might have a timetable. I think it came up in response to a similar question quite a while ago.

edited to add:

I’ve found it in the Feb 2007 CWNs, Sunday only:

1L68 1350 from Penzance and 1L66 1610 from Paignton joined at Exeter to form 1L68 1720 to Waterloo and Portsmouth Harbour. The ex-Penzance portion led the two 159s as far as Salisbury, the rear portion split to form 1Y68 to Portsmouth Harbour.

On the occasion I travelled on it from Exeter, another class 159 attached at Salisbury, so there were six cars that continued to Waterloo,

 

[Bartsimho]

The splitting could work well for the MML into St Pancras with only 4 platforms an very limited paths into the station due to TL on the slows. During the middle of the day have 2 5 car sets join/split at Leicester for Derby/Sheffield and Nottingham to allow for more frequent service to all 3 cities as you could have 4tph then. 2tph with the stops and 2tph with the direct.
I'm unsure what would be considered more desirable at peak times though? 4 5 car trains an hour or 2 10 car trains an hour?

The Midland side of the MML isn't struggling for paths only at St Pancras for platform space (I'm unsure how busy the fasts are around Kentish Town but the Slows look rammed)

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Whilst not quite a match for the OPs original question, but an interesting summer Friday afternoon manoeuvre at Preston nonetheless.

In 2010, TPE having become established as the Manchester to Scotland operator using class 185s and gradually increasing the frequency and capacity decided to operate a summer weekends direct Glasgow to Blackpool service - last provided by BR probably in the 1980s.

The model was southbound from Glasgow Friday lunchtime and Saturday mornings, returning from Blackpool around the middle of the day on Saturdays and Sundays, in all cases attached to an existing Glasgow to Manchester Airport or return service north of Preston. the Friday southbound working had an unusual feature.

Having departed Glasgow Central with six cars - 3 for MIA, 3 for BPN, arrival at Preston was in platform already occupied by a 3 car class 185 as this train was booked to attach a set at Preston SX to Manchester for the return evening peak working. Thus on arrival at Preston the leading set from Glasgow detached from the Blackpool set and drew forward to attach to the 'Preston' set to go forward as six cars. Meantime the now detached rearmost set ran to Blackpool and then attached to another Manchester bound class 185 again to provide strengthening for the evening peak out of Manchester.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Prior to the 1974 West Coast electrification there was a Liverpool to Glasgow train which at Preston attached a portion from Manchester on the rear. the Manchester portion was in fact two portions, one for Glasgow (the middle section of the combined train) and on the rear a portion for Edinburgh detached at Carstairs.

 

[swt_passenger]

On the occasion I travelled on it from Exeter, another class 159 attached at Salisbury, so there were six cars that continued to Waterloo,

Yes, I’ve now double checked the Salisbury detailed movements and there was another 159 arrived as ECS 5L68 in P2 at 1906. The two units from Exeter arrived in P2 at 1916, the 2 units for Waterloo departed as 1L68 at 1926, and the single unit to Portsmouth departed as 1Y68 at 1930.

So the whole procedure occupied P2 for 24 mins. I expect they needed that to make sure everyone who’d missed all the announcements ever since Penzance and Paignton could be personally advised where to sit down when the music stopped…

 

[Big Jumby 74]

On the occasion I travelled on it from Exeter, another class 159 attached at Salisbury, so there were six cars that continued to Waterloo,

Indeed so, that was the unit off the rear of the 1615 Waterloo-Yeovil. A veritable marshalling yard was (is?) Salisbury, out of necessity I should add.

 

[snowball]

Prior to the 1974 West Coast electrification there was a Liverpool to Glasgow train which at Preston attached a portion from Manchester on the rear. the Manchester portion was in fact two portions, one for Glasgow (the middle section of the combined train) and on the rear a portion for Edinburgh detached at Carstairs.

I think it continued for at least a year or two after electrification. (Maybe longer, but I stopped travelling on that route in 1975.) It's the southbound working corresponding to the northbound one that I mentioned in the second post of this thread.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

I think it continued for at least a year or two after electrification. (Maybe longer, but I stopped travelling on that route in 1975.) It's the southbound working corresponding to the northbound one that I mentioned in the second post of this thread.

Firstly apologies for overlooking your post no.2.

The May 74 electrification timetable delivered a step change in North West to Scotland frequency from just two per day (plus one summer daily and some weekend extras) to five per day Mon to Sat, all five of which ran full train to either Glasgow or Edinburgh, three of them combining at Preston and the other pair offering cross platform connections at Preston - full train LIV to EDB and MCV to GLC and return. On Sundays splitting of these trains at Carstairs continued but now only two portions. I don't recall whether three portion working was reintroduced later although it seems unlikely.

In earlier years there were other three portioned workings including the overnight train, the Edinburgh to Manchester portion of which (two coaches plus a BG) ran to Carstairs attached to the Edinburgh to Birmingham portion. Although both Glasgow and Edinburgh had sleeping cars to Birmingham, both Liverpool and Manchester only received sleepers from Glasgow.

Incidentally, in the era of double headed class 50s the aforementioned daytime train (a.m. southbound p.m. northbound) was the only year round daytime train which had just a single class 50 although summer dated and weekend additionals were also single headed.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Where you really do see lots of complex portion working (at both ends of the journey, not just one) is with sleeper services on the continent. A sleeper train might leave station A with portions for stations C and D. At a junction it will meet with a train from station B which also has portions for C and D, joining the appropriate portions together before the two trains divide for their respective destinations. This was the plan for Nightstar.

And in some cases there's an E and an F too, even quite recently... such as, I seem to remember, some of the overnights departing from Zurich in recent years. They mixed and matched at least 2 origins with at least 4 destinations.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

And in some cases there's an E and an F too, even quite recently... such as, I seem to remember, some of the overnights departing from Zurich in recent years. They mixed and matched at least 2 origins with at least 4 destinations.

Many trains across Europe had multiple portions, and not just overnight. In the '70s the TEE Rheingold conveyed five portions over it's core route, originating in Amsterdam and Hoek van Holland combining at Utrecht and attaching a portion from Hannover at Duisburg. From Basel these went forward in various combinations to Geneve, Milano and Chur.

EDIT: Today's NightJet network is predominantly multi portion workings

 

[snowball]

Incidentally, in the era of double headed class 50s the aforementioned daytime train (a.m. southbound p.m. northbound) was the only year round daytime train which had just a single class 50 although summer dated and weekend additionals were also single headed.

Between 1972 and 1975 I travelled several times a year between Edinburgh and Manchester. Southbound was usually on the Edinburgh portion of a train for Birmingham, changing to a DMU at Preston. Northbound was mostly on the Manchester-Edinburgh portion of a two- or three- portion train. I kept reading that Anglo-Scottish west coast trains had double-headed 50s, but I nearly always seemed to get a single 50.

 

[3141]

I've now recalled an occasion in April 1962 when I travelled on a train from Exeter to Manchester. I think the train had originated at Plymouth. It travelled through the Severn Tunnel, and I think the route was Newport - Hereford - Shrewsbury to Crewe. There may have been some attachments on the way, and there were certainly detachments, because from Crewe to Manchester there were only three coaches, hauled by an electric locomotive.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

I've now recalled an occasion in April 1962 when I travelled on a train from Exeter to Manchester. I think the train had originated at Plymouth. It travelled through the Severn Tunnel, and I think the route was Newport - Hereford - Shrewsbury to Crewe. There may have been some attachments on the way, and there were certainly detachments, because from Crewe to Manchester there were only three coaches, hauled by an electric locomotive.

In that era there was a daily Plymouth to Glasgow portion detached from a Manchester bound train - possibly the one you travelled on - at Crewe

 

[swr444]

The sunday Basingstoke/Alton services attach and detach at Woking

 

[Cheshire Scot]

In that era there was a daily Plymouth to Glasgow portion detached from a Manchester bound train - possibly the one you travelled on - at Crewe

Further research reveals 08.00 Plymouth to Liverpool with seven coaches for Liverpool, the two day coaches for Glasgow, and on the rear presumably attaching Newton Abbot, three coaches for Manchester from Kingswear.

Alternatively 12.00 'Penzance to Manchester' attaching three coaches for Manchester at Plymouth detaching a Postal Van from Cardiff (attach Newport?) (front) at Crewe, also detaching 3 coaches Penzance to Glasgow (overnight from Crewe) and 2 parcel vans Penzance to Wavertree leaving just the three coaches from Plymouth forward to Manchester from Crewe.

 

[Master29]

Didn't the Atlantic Coast Express of the 1950's from Waterloo detach/attach several times at different points. Portions from Padstow, Ilfracombe, Torrington, Sidmouth and Exmouth although at the height of the season there were several trains all using ACE named train. When and where they attached/detached I'm not sure but some experts from the area may indeed inform us possibly?

As an aside a couple of Penzance trains attach/detach at Plymouth from Paddington.

 

[QueensCurve]

As I mentioned in the "reverse formation" thread earlier today, in the 1970s there were trains comprising Liverpool-Glasgow, Manchester-Glasgow and Manchester-Edinburgh portions, joining at Preston and separating at Carstairs. They were loco-hauled and, after electrification was completed in 1974, they would also change locos at Preston, so each train would use one electric and three diesel locos for different parts of its journey.

Although the Carstairs remodelling is a big improvement, I have certain sadness to see a change from the familiar layout and operations in the 1980s. Southbound, the Edinburgh portion (xx:10 off Waverley) would arrive in advance of the Glasgow portion (xx:25 off Central). Having stopped to set-down, it would wait in the loop to the North of the station for the Glasgow portion and then be propelled back into the station to join it.

I don't ever remember the Edinburgh portion being late. The Glasgow portion was frequently a few minutes later and sometimes much more. Despite this, there was an unwillingness to hold the edinburgh portion for connections. I once missed the last Birmingham by seconds at Haymarket (17:13) off a late running connection from Dundee. I was able to make it to Hatrford (Cheshire) that day by taking the 18:10 Edinburgh to Liverpool (18:25 Glasgow to Manchester) and make the unpublished connection into the Liverpool to Crewe. I even found time for a pint of Guiness at Liverpool Lime Juice.

 

[Ken H]

Although the Carstairs remodelling is a big improvement, I have certain sadness to see a change from the familiar layout and operations in the 1980s. Southbound, the Edinburgh portion (xx:10 off Waverley) would arrive in advance of the Glasgow portion (xx:25 off Central). Having stopped to set-down, it would wait in the loop to the North of the station for the Glasgow portion and then be propelled back into the station to join it.

Ah. so that how they made the liverpool - Glasgow portion become a glasgow - Manchester portion to rotate the stock. The portions had to go to manc for servicing, I believe