Utility cycling, hills and other practicalities - the Netherlands vs. elsewhere

[JohnMcL7]

Oh, that was a random ‘good old days’ anecdote rather than an example. He was an OS surveyor and never drove (though I think he had some sort of licence from WW2 service in the RE (maps bit) so train/bike everywhere (moaning about tram tracks) and walking up mountains!
If I was using him as an example I would have said how he had a full English every morning and lived to 90 odd
If we are to convince people to utility cycle they need to play down the Lycra image and promote jumping on a bike, ordinary clothes, no helmet, and carrying on as though you had walked. But it means cracking the security issue, and building homes with cycle rooms or cycle garages.
The best way to make it safer is simply to get more people cycling

I don't think they do play up the lycra image at all though, that seems to a bias many people have in their heads that they stick with. I've been involved with a local cycling enterprise and they've never in any way had anything to do with the lycra image instead providing services to help get all manner of different people on bikes. At the monthly and very visible critical and kiddical mass cycles you won't find people in lycra but you will see lots of day to day and utility bikes to promote every day cycling.

 

[biko]

If we are to convince people to utility cycle they need to play down the Lycra image and promote jumping on a bike, ordinary clothes, no helmet, and carrying on as though you had walked. But it means cracking the security issue, and building homes with cycle rooms or cycle garages.
The best way to make it safer is simply to get more people cycling

Indeed these are key elements for getting people on bikes, but I do wonder why the UK is so unsafe with respect to parking. I never think about if the spot where I park my ordinary bike is safe (I live in the Netherlands). The only place I don’t feel safe parking my bike is in the station bike racks. Also I didn’t buy a new bike as I don’t have room to store the bike inside and now live in a city centre. But in suburban areas I wouldn’t hesitate buying a new one.

 

[E27007]

Yeah, just found it, quite extraordinarily expensive for a bicycle component! Heading into the price of a car gearbox (though not quite)...

The Rohloff 14 speed hub is very expensive, Shimano make a range of 7-speed, 8-sppeed and 11-speed hub gears, all at a fraction of the cost of the Rohloff.
The 7-speed Shimano hub gear meets the requirements of most cyclists and is cheap to buy and durable..
The Rohloff-14,not only expensive but very noisy, in operation, known as the "Coffee Grinder" ,

 

[Meerkat]

I don't think they do play up the lycra image at all though, that seems to a bias many people have in their heads that they stick with. I've been involved with a local cycling enterprise and they've never in any way had anything to do with the lycra image instead providing services to help get all manner of different people on bikes. At the monthly and very visible critical and kiddical mass cycles you won't find people in lycra but you will see lots of day to day and utility bikes to promote every day cycling.

Its not that they play up the lycra image. Its that many of the campaigners are lycra wearing road bike riders, so they demand showers that they want for their style of bike riding, rather than just secure parking and encouraging people to just jump on and go.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Nail. on. the. head.

It is a way to make it safer but I don't agree it is the best. The best way (and the only way you'll get mass takeup from granny to a 5 year old) to make it safer is segregation on the Dutch model. There will always be larger road vehicles than a cyclist, even if all car use ceases immediately, there is no scope for lorries and buses to go away entirely. And because those road vehicles are driven by humans, those humans will make errors, and occasionally those errors will hurt or kill a cyclist. And sometimes the error will be made by the cyclist, who is also human (despite most Twitter cycling campaigners being unwilling to even vaguely countenance that possibiility).

If those vehicles physically cannot come into contact with a cyclist, then the cyclist is safest.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Apr 2023 ==

The Rohloff 14 speed hub is very expensive, Shimano make a range of 7-speed, 8-sppeed and 11-speed hub gears, all at a fraction of the cost of the Rohloff.
The 7-speed Shimano hub gear meets the requirements of most cyclists and is cheap to buy and durable..
The Rohloff-14,not only expensive but very noisy, in operation, known as the "Coffee Grinder" ,

Having ridden a bike with one I don't agree. As supplied first gear was way too high. I fitted a new input gear to reduce it, but it meant seventh was way too low despite first only just being low enough. Plus removing the rear wheel to mend a puncture or carry the bike in my car was an almighty faff of taking half the bike to bits.

I maintain that a derailleur with a "megarange" rear cassette is the best bet for British cycling as a whole. The Shimano 7 speed would be good for the Netherlands, but wasn't good for hilly Milton Keynes, and places like Sheffield and Bristol are far hillier than MK.

 

[zwk500]

It is a way to make it safer but I don't agree it is the best. The best way (and the only way you'll get mass takeup from granny to a 5 year old) to make it safer is segregation on the Dutch model. There will always be larger road vehicles than a cyclist, even if all car use ceases immediately, there is no scope for lorries and buses to go away entirely. And because those road vehicles are driven by humans, those humans will make errors, and occasionally those errors will hurt or kill a cyclist.

If those vehicles physically cannot come into contact with a cyclist, then the cyclist is safest.

I agree but it's also unaffordable at present. Increasing participation is key because a driver who cycles is much more aware of the danger and what it feels like to have a close pass. Also more people cycling means less traffic and therefore more space for everybody.

Making cycling normal is key, and part of that is having cycle parking as ubiquitous as car parking and cycling in normal clothes perfectly ordinary.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree but it's also unaffordable at present. Increasing participation is key because a driver who cycles is much more aware of the danger and what it feels like to have a close pass. Also more people cycling means less traffic and therefore more space for everybody.

Making cycling normal is key, and part of that is having cycle parking as ubiquitous as car parking and cycling in normal clothes perfectly ordinary.

I'd concede to something like "increasing the number of cyclists is the best way to make them safer if no cycling specific funding is available". However what that does is what we are seeing in London - increases the number of young, highly fit, aggressive, lycra-clad cyclists riding expensive road bikes, because those people with that equipment are the only way to really feel safe. Of course more cyclists are better than fewer cyclists, so it's not a bad outcome, but it won't get Old Granny Smith cycling to Tesco on her sit up and beg she's had since she was a kid with a basket full of bread and milk on the front, nor will it get parents allowing their 8 year old to ride to school* alone. Now, there are cheap ways to get partial segregation that help, like LTNs which just cost you a couple of planters and a load of soil plus the due process, but if you really want to grow cycling you need to keep bikes away from large road vehicles (particularly lorries), because even if everyone's behaving perfectly cycling alongside a vehicle the size of your house is just unpleasant.

* And I think it's fair to say that the "school run" is one of the most damaging "car misuse" scenarios there is, because it brings lots of large aggressively driven cars together in streets that can barely handle them at the same time as there are a load of small children walking around there.

 

[zwk500]

I'd concede to something like "increasing the number of cyclists is the best way to make them safer if no cycling specific funding is available". However what that does is what we are seeing in London - increases the number of young, highly fit, aggressive, lycra-clad cyclists riding expensive road bikes, because those people with that equipment are the only way to really feel safe. Of course more cyclists are better than fewer cyclists, so it's not a bad outcome, but it won't get Old Granny Smith cycling to Tesco on her sit up and beg she's had since she was a kid with a basket full of bread and milk on the front.

Nothing's going to get Granny Smith cycling on the bike she's had since she was a kid if she's got rid of the bike. The position the UK is in financially and with the cycling culture at the moment Granny Smith and the grandkids can be left to be lifted by the rising tide. The people we need to be focusing on convincing that cycling is a viable option or the working middle-aged with upper primary school or secondary school age kids. School runs and commuting are the journeys we need to be moving to bikes ASAP, a pensioner in a hatchback is a lesser evil at this point. To convince these people, we need a hell of a lot more cycle parking, a lot better security at these parking spaces, and a culture that normalises jumping on the bike for 20 minutes.

Now, there are cheap ways to get partial segregation that help, like LTNs which just cost you a couple of planters and a load of soil plus the due process, but if you really want to grow cycling you need to keep bikes away from large road vehicles (particularly lorries), because even if everyone's behaving perfectly cycling alongside a vehicle the size of your house is just unpleasant.

LTNs made of just a couple of planters are functionally very weak. You need properly seated bollards and visible street infrastructure to make proper LTNs, otherwise car-centric mindsets will see people just drive through them.

In the long run, segregated infrastructure would certainly be nice, but it's going to take time to get to a critical mass, and London will always be ahead of the curve on that as it has the money and people to make it worthwhile.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Local authority capability is at least as much of an obstacle to getting proper infrastructure as funding is, probably more. There's only a handful of authorities in England that have proved capable of designing and building decent cycling infrastructure. (TfL obviously; also Manchester, Leicester, Birmingham/Coventry/WMCA, Leeds/WYCA, Cambridgeshire.)

Active Travel England is trying to fix this but, to be honest, the fact we're still getting dreck delivered in Oxford of all places shows how far they have to go.

 

[Meerkat]

It is a way to make it safer but I don't agree it is the best. The best way (and the only way you'll get mass takeup from granny to a 5 year old) to make it safer is segregation on the Dutch model.

There isn't the room for that and if you take too much road space then its politically impossible. Aren't the Dutch starting to remove their segregation now?
Normalising cycling with numbers makes it safer as drivers are more familiar with cycling and expect them to be everywhere.
Current campaigns aren't really gaining much, and are putting people off by continually saying how dangerous it is.
Cycle storage should be a massive priority - the longer you leave it the more homes wont have provision built in. And stop tucking cycle racks a way - put them in highly visible locations where there is heavy passive surveillance and seeing scores of bikes makes people thinking riding to there is normal. Or build secure bike parking into the ground floor of multi storeys, maybe even staffed in combination with a bike shop/repair outfit.

 

[zwk500]

There isn't the room for that and if you take too much road space then its politically impossible. Aren't the Dutch starting to remove their segregation now?
Normalising cycling with numbers makes it safer as drivers are more familiar with cycling and expect them to be everywhere.
Current campaigns aren't really gaining much, and are putting people off by continually saying how dangerous it is.
Cycle storage should be a massive priority - the longer you leave it the more homes wont have provision built in. And stop tucking cycle racks a way - put them in highly visible locations where there is heavy passive surveillance and seeing scores of bikes makes people thinking riding to there is normal. Or build secure bike parking into the ground floor of multi storeys, maybe even staffed in combination with a bike shop/repair outfit.

There will always be a need for some segregation, and it will get easier as people start to get used to cycling around.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Nothing's going to get Granny Smith cycling on the bike she's had since she was a kid if she's got rid of the bike. The position the UK is in financially and with the cycling culture at the moment Granny Smith and the grandkids can be left to be lifted by the rising tide. The people we need to be focusing on convincing that cycling is a viable option or the working middle-aged with upper primary school or secondary school age kids. School runs and commuting are the journeys we need to be moving to bikes ASAP, a pensioner in a hatchback is a lesser evil at this point. To convince these people, we need a hell of a lot more cycle parking, a lot better security at these parking spaces, and a culture that normalises jumping on the bike for 20 minutes.

And segregation.

I think you're heavily underplaying just how unlikely it is that most parents will take an 8 year old on a busy main road. I'd cycle a kid to school in MK because we have the Redways. Would I do it in say Manchester? Absolutely no chance. When I was a student I used to dice with death on Oxford Road, I'm not sure even i would do that now (though it does have a bit of segregation now) and I'd definitely not do it with my kid (if I had one).

OK, it might work fine in some Cotswold village, but then you're just talking journeys where you can just walk anyway as they're very short.

It simply will not happen without segregation on any significant scale, and to pretend otherwise actually contributes to the problem.

Cycling will never be mainstream until it doesn't have to be done directly alongside vehicles the size of a small bungalow belching out choking diesel fumes. Cycles are fundamentally incompatible with large motorised vehicles.

 

[zwk500]

And segregation.

I think you're heavily underplaying just how unlikely it is that most parents will take an 8 year old on a busy main road. I'd cycle a kid to school in MK because we have the Redways. Would I do it in say Manchester? Absolutely no chance. When I was a student I used to dice with death on Oxford Road, I'm not sure even i would do that now (though it does have a bit of segregation now) and I'd definitely not do it with my kid (if I had one).

I'm not underplaying it, that's where things like LTN's come in. Busy major roads are where segregation is more possible. I'd be all in favour of converting 2 lane dual carriage ways to 1 lane, A hedge, and a cycle lane.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Of course, if you ban vehicles from city and town centres, then you don't really need cycles lanes - Nijmegen in NL is like this with shop deliveries by lorry etc only allowed in the early morning or late evening. Many streets are 'cycle streets' where cars are 'guests' permitting resident access to properties only - the equivalent of our LTNs. In Manchester, Oxford Road has dedicated cycle lanes on each side, but on the section past the University where only buses and taxis are permitted, then they are not really needed in all honesty. It is always pleasing see the cyclist counter - it typically reads c1500 so far that day in term-time when I ride past in early afternoon. The latest fiasco in Manchester is Deansgate, where a particularly cranky cycle lane zig-zagging all over the place has just been installed in the northbound direction, and a combined bus / cycle lane in the southbound. A missed opportunity to create an attractive boulevard for pedestrians and cyclists only.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Of course, if you ban vehicles from city and town centres, then you don't really need cycles lanes - Nijmegen in NL is like this with shop deliveries by lorry etc only allowed in the early morning or late evening. Many streets are 'cycle streets' where cars are 'guests' permitting resident access to properties only - the equivalent of our LTNs. In Manchester, Oxford Road has dedicated cycle lanes on each side, but on the section past the University where only buses and taxis are permitted, then they are not really needed in all honesty.

Taxis are some of the worst driven vehicles in the UK, and I dislike sharing the road with buses, because however well driven they are they're a major threat by being so big.

You won't sell cycling if it has to share the road with large vehicles.

 

[zwk500]

Taxis are some of the worst driven vehicles in the UK, and I dislike sharing the road with buses, because however well driven they are they're a major threat by being so big.

You won't sell cycling if it has to share the road with large vehicles.

Buses can also be driven extremely badly, especially against cyclists. Bus only restrictions are useful for reducing the overall volume of traffic on a road, but I'd still want a separate cycle lane if there's room for it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Buses can also be driven extremely badly, especially against cyclists. Bus only restrictions are useful for reducing the overall volume of traffic on a road, but I'd still want a separate cycle lane if there's room for it.

Absolutely. And buses often aren't driven well on that corridor. OK, the situation was worse in the 90s, but I've been knocked off a couple of times along there.

 

[4COR]

Yeah, just found it, quite extraordinarily expensive for a bicycle component! Heading into the price of a car gearbox (though not quite)...

The Rohloff Speedhubs are a pretty penny, but are amazing pieces of engineering - their expected lifetime is amazing. I had a late friend who cycled from the UK to Australia (twice!) with one of these fitted - zero problems, and it was probably only just about run in.

 

[Meerkat]

And segregation.

I think you're heavily underplaying just how unlikely it is that most parents will take an 8 year old on a busy main road. I'd cycle a kid to school in MK because we have the Redways. Would I do it in say Manchester? Absolutely no chance. When I was a student I used to dice with death on Oxford Road, I'm not sure even i would do that now (though it does have a bit of segregation now) and I'd definitely not do it with my kid (if I had one).

OK, it might work fine in some Cotswold village, but then you're just talking journeys where you can just walk anyway as they're very short.

It simply will not happen without segregation on any significant scale, and to pretend otherwise actually contributes to the problem.

Cycling will never be mainstream until it doesn't have to be done directly alongside vehicles the size of a small bungalow belching out choking diesel fumes. Cycles are fundamentally incompatible with large motorised vehicles.

In areas where there are schools I just don't believe their is space for the segregation you are after, particularly with all the sideturnings and driveways.
Cycling was mainstream when there were buses before. And once they arent belching diesel fumes they will be much better.
You are displaying the self-defeating attitude of many campaigners - telling people it is too dangerous to cycle unless unfeasible and extremely unlikely segregation measures are taken. Just get lots of cyclists out there and many of the problems will look after themselves - in fact they will probably then get more segregation as the motoring lobby wants them out of the way!

 

[Bletchleyite]

In areas where there are schools I just don't believe their is space for the segregation you are after, particularly with all the sideturnings and driveways.

You can't segregate absolutely everywhere, but for any main (distributor) road it's essential.

Milton Keynes has a Redway alongside all but residential cul de sacs in new estates for instance. Conversion is harder but often possible by changing roads to one-way (which does conflict a bit with LTNs so it's necessary to choose carefully in each case which works best).

Cycling was mainstream when there were buses before.

Wasn't fun though. It was done out of necessity because a car was unaffordable. The situation is different now; the car is not going away and nor should it.

You are displaying the self-defeating attitude of many campaigners - telling people it is too dangerous to cycle unless unfeasible and extremely unlikely segregation measures are taken.

They're not infeasible. The Netherlands has basically created their Utopian cycling setup in about 40 years. It used to look like here!

 

[Magdalia]

but I do wonder why the UK is so unsafe with respect to parking.

Cycle parking is insecure because there are lots of bike thieves who are confident that they won't get caught.

having cycle parking as ubiquitous as car parking

The requirements for cycle parking are very different from cars.

And stop tucking cycle racks a way - put them in highly visible locations where there is heavy passive surveillance and seeing scores of bikes makes people thinking riding to there is normal. Or build secure bike parking into the ground floor of multi storeys, maybe even staffed in combination with a bike shop/repair outfit.

These are important points. Cycle parking needs to be where people who are trying to steal bikes will be seen, and clearly enough for it to be recognised what they are doing.

Scores of bikes together is not secure because passers by can't see the wood for the trees. What's needed is lots of small cycle parks with single figure numbers of fixed hoops outside busy places such as coffee shops and chemists.

The Grand Arcade in Cambridge has a basement cycle park with a bike shop. Passing traffic is sufficient as a deterrent, and it is not huge so the sightlines are good. But the multi storey bike park at the railway station has lots of bikes densely packed, less passing traffic, and can't be seen from the bike shop, so is nowhere near as secure.

* And I think it's fair to say that the "school run" is one of the most damaging "car misuse" scenarios there is, because it brings lots of large aggressively driven cars together in streets that can barely handle them at the same time as there are a load of small children walking around there.

School runs and commuting are the journeys we need to be moving to bikes ASAP

In Cambridge, the school run is the biggest contributor to congestion. But taking small children to and from school on cargo bikes is becoming increasingly common in Cambridge.

Normalising cycling with numbers makes it safer as drivers are more familiar with cycling and expect them to be everywhere.

Cycling will never be mainstream until it doesn't have to be done directly alongside vehicles the size of a small bungalow belching out choking diesel fumes. Cycles are fundamentally incompatible with large motorised vehicles.

Cycling is mainstream in Cambridge without a lot of segregation. Most Cambridge drivers do expect cyclists to be everywhere, it is the visiting drivers who are a menace, especially those driving lorries and vans.

Nijmegen in NL is like this with shop deliveries by lorry etc only allowed in the early morning or late evening.

Time for my delivery van rant! One of the worst cycling hazards in Cambridge is delivery van drivers blocking cycle lanes when making deliveries, forcing cyclists out into gaps between faster moving vehicles on the main carriageway. This was the one thing that I did count on my trip yesterday, in one journey it happened 6 times.

Buses can also be driven extremely badly, especially against cyclists. Bus only restrictions are useful for reducing the overall volume of traffic on a road, but I'd still want a separate cycle lane if there's room for it.

Hills Road in Cambridge (between the station and the hospital) has what I think are called floating bus stops. These are positioned between the cycle track and the vehicle carriageway. Passing crowds of students waiting for buses can be a bit hair raising, but it is not as bad as having to choose between overtaking a stationary bus or waiting behind while breathing in its exhaust.

 

[zwk500]

Hills Road in Cambridge (between the station and the hospital) has what I think are called floating bus stops. These are positioned between the cycle track and the vehicle carriageway. Passing crowds of students waiting for buses can be a bit hair raising, but it is not as bad as having to choose between overtaking a stationary bus or waiting behind while breathing in its exhaust.

Like this one? https://www.google.com/maps/@52.184...4!1sjqu3MC8liNoVPqAwRIDkyg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

They're quite narrow, but yes they're a good step up. Even if they're not quite at the Dutch level, where we have 2 floating bus stops on a roundabout, with a cycle roundabout outside the road (and segregated from it), with pedestrian pavements behind that. All drivers, whether coming off the roundabout or trying to join it, must give way to cyclists and pedestrians: https://www.google.com/maps/@50.8496148,5.6776792,3a,75y,275.7h,76.57t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sF1HO_PD4VFvEhbyHGn5awA!2e0!6shttps://streetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com/v1/thumbnail?panoid=F1HO_PD4VFvEhbyHGn5awA&cb_client=maps_sv.tactile.gps&w=203&h=100&yaw=229.66064&pitch=0&thumbfov=100!7i16384!8i8192

The dutch roundabout is 90m from Building to building though. Many UK cities would struggle to find that sort of space routinely.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Scores of bikes together is not secure because passers by can't see the wood for the trees. What's needed is lots of small cycle parks with single figure numbers of fixed hoops outside busy places such as coffee shops and chemists.

Certainly. Arriving in a town centre by car you want to park up and walk around. Arriving by bike your bike goes with you between shops.

The Grand Arcade in Cambridge has a basement cycle park with a bike shop. Passing traffic is sufficient as a deterrent, and it is not huge so the sightlines are good. But the multi storey bike park at the railway station has lots of bikes densely packed, less passing traffic, and can't be seen from the bike shop, so is nowhere near as secure.

That provides for a different need, and should be a bewaakte Fietsenstalling with staff watching over it and giving you a ticket when you arrive with your bike and requiring you to hand it in as you leave. I'd happily pay a fee for that at stations.

Time for my delivery van rant! One of the worst cycling hazards in Cambridge is delivery van drivers blocking cycle lanes when making deliveries, forcing cyclists out into gaps between faster moving vehicles on the main carriageway. This was the one thing that I did count on my trip yesterday, in one journey it happened 6 times.

That's annoying, but is partly because our road designs don't provide enough places for vans to stop safely for loading. Most urban main roads should be Red Routes, but with loading bays for deliveries to use.

Same with lorries. Commercial areas should have adequate lorry loading bays, the effect of them not existing is lorries stopped in inconvenient places because businesses can't not load goods.

 

[Meerkat]

You can't segregate absolutely everywhere, but for any main (distributor) road it's essential.

Milton Keynes has a Redway alongside all but residential cul de sacs in new estates for instance. Conversion is harder but often possible by changing roads to one-way (which does conflict a bit with LTNs so it's necessary to choose carefully in each case which works best).

Its not practical for many, if not most main roads in towns, due to narrowness and too many junctions. And if its patchy its often worse than nothing as cyclists have to go on and off it. MK is a new town - very different.

They're not infeasible. The Netherlands has basically created their Utopian cycling setup in about 40 years. It used to look like here!

I don't really remember segregation in Holland in places that looked like the towns round here. The newer places on the polders were more like MK than traditional English towns. What I do remember is that Holland seemed to have an incredibly dense road and motorway network.

Also what I remember is that whilst Holland might not have hills the wind was often worse then riding uphill!

 

[zwk500]

Certainly. Arriving in a town centre by car you want to park up and walk around. Arriving by bike your bike goes with you between shops.

Yes, and it's noticeable in cycling-heavy places just how many places have a bike stand the width of a car and a half outside it.

That provides for a different need, and should be a bewaakte Fietsenstalling with staff watching over it and giving you a ticket when you arrive with your bike and requiring you to hand it in as you leave. I'd happily pay a fee for that at stations.

The UK has got used to using CCTV in place of staff which is a problem for something potentially as quick as bike theft. NS does quite well by having a bike repair shop in many of it's shelters and by requiring you to scan in and out with your OV-Chipkaart (it's free for 24hrs in the Netherlands, and a tiny amount per day after that).

That's annoying, but is partly because our road designs don't provide enough places for vans to stop safely for loading. Most urban main roads should be Red Routes, but with loading bays for deliveries to use.

Same with lorries. Commercial areas should have adequate lorry loading bays, the effect of them not existing is lorries stopped in inconvenient places because businesses can't not load goods.

This is where full segregation comes in.

 

[Magdalia]

The dutch roundabout is 90m from Building to building though. Many UK cities would struggle to find that sort of space routinely.

Cambridge does have its own "Dutch Roundabout" at the junction of Queen Ediths Way, Fendon Road and Mowbray Road. It was installed at vast expense not long ago, went massively over budget, and is not big enough to include bus stops. It is not very popular, and has had some minor accidents because people don't really know how to use it safely. I avoid it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is where full segregation comes in.

And a conversion of all our towns and cities to Controlled Parking Zones, whereby you can't park unless it says you can, rather than the UK default of that you can park unless it says you can't. It's a big mentality shift but an important one.

Curiously CMK was changed *from* a CPZ when parking enforcement was decriminalised, I'm not sure why, perhaps a law change is required to allow decriminalised CPZ enforcement or was back then. It necessitated a *lot* of painting of double yellows and kerb markings!

 

[zwk500]

Cambridge does have its own "Dutch Roundabout" at the junction of Queen Ediths Way, Fendon Road and Mowbray Road. It was installed at vast expense not long ago, went massively over budget, and is not big enough to include bus stops. It is not very popular, and has had some minor accidents because people don't really know how to use it safely. I avoid it.

Looking at that on Google Maps, is part of the problem that it's really badly marked and doesn't clearly give priority to cyclists?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Looking at that on Google Maps, is part of the problem that it's really badly marked and doesn't clearly give priority to cyclists?

Interestingly I've just had a discussion with someone on Twitter who was bemoarning the fact that vehicles weren't stopping for crossing cyclists where the crossing was marked as a zebra (albeit with a small picture of a bike on it) - I'm not surprised, because people don't expect to have to give way on a zebra to something that isn't even at the crossing or visibly approaching it until they're almost there.

The Dutch have the "dragon teeth" marking for that purpose which implies more than a zebra but also vehicular/cycle give way, perhaps we should introduce them, or indeed just mark give ways like you get in central MK at the porte cochere crossings which I'm pretty sure are like that to indicate "give way to cyclists and pedestrians" rather than to simply act like a zebra, unusual though they are. Though you can always tell a long term MKer because they give way to pedestrians in CMK even in places where the markings are absent.

Example: https://www.google.com/maps/@52.0390781,-0.7624878,43m/data=!3m1!1e3

Example where there is nothing officially marked but most locals do give way: https://www.google.com/maps/@52.0401645,-0.7596787,43m/data=!3m1!1e3

Regarding the one Magdalia mentioned:

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

...that's indeed very badly marked. It has proper give way markings to cycles on some legs but not others, which is really confusing. I suspect that would confuse the life out of most drivers, and a confused driver is a dangerous driver.

See also this stupidly marked mini roundabout near me:

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

...which a lot of locals appear to think means traffic emerging northbound from Whaddon Way must give way to traffic from Denbigh Hall Drive which has not yet entered the roundabout, which it doesn't, it's just a normal mini roundabout with both possible sets of markings on it, and is in fact in breach of the relevant marking standards because you're not meant to mark a roundabout like that if it could possibly give rise to confusion over priorities (I checked after a heated local discussion on a FB group).

 

[Magdalia]

That's annoying, but is partly because our road designs don't provide enough places for vans to stop safely for loading. Most urban main roads should be Red Routes, but with loading bays for deliveries to use.

Same with lorries. Commercial areas should have adequate lorry loading bays, the effect of them not existing is lorries stopped in inconvenient places because businesses can't not load goods.

Since the spread of internet shopping many of these vans are on domestic deliveries. Sometimes they use driveways to access segregated cycle lanes for parking while they make deliveries.

And for retail in the old City it is quite hard to put lorry loading bays into mediaeval narrow streets.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Apr 2023 ==

Looking at that on Google Maps, is part of the problem that it's really badly marked and doesn't clearly give priority to cyclists?

...that's indeed very badly marked. It has proper give way markings to cycles on some legs but not others, which is really confusing. I suspect that would confuse the life out of most drivers, and a confused driver is a dangerous driver.

I deliberately put "Dutch Roundabout" in quotes because I suspected that it hadn't been done properly.

And I think that UK road users struggle with the concept of needing to give way when leaving a roundabout: I'm not sure what can be done for that.