Utility cycling, hills and other practicalities - the Netherlands vs. elsewhere

[johncrossley]

http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/2011/09/every-roundabout-in-assen.html has a large selection of roundabouts in one Dutch city.

The author seems to argue against the typical Dutch roundabout, like the one in Cambridge.

In Assen, cyclists do not have priority where cycle-paths cross roads approaching roundabouts. This has been shown to be safer than the design used in some other parts of the Netherlands where cycle-paths have priority over the road crossing. Whether or not to give cyclists priority has long been a contentious subject because of this balance between safety and convenience. There is a big contrast between the safest designs and the least safe.

 

[zwk500]

The author seems to argue against the typical Dutch roundabout, like the one in Cambridge.

The question of priority is highly Location specific. In some places it will be best to give cyclists priority and others drivers. However who gets to go first does not detract from the main point which is if you build properly designed and marked cycle infrastructure it is safer for cyclists and therefore makes cycling more attractive.

 

[johncrossley]

The question of priority is highly Location specific. In some places it will be best to give cyclists priority and others drivers. However who gets to go first does not detract from the main point which is if you build properly designed and marked cycle infrastructure it is safer for cyclists and therefore makes cycling more attractive.

However it is clear that he's generally against priority for the cyclist at most roundabouts. When you have to give way to drivers means that the junction is little better than a pedestrian crossing from the point of view of the cyclist. But he doesn't argue against priority at side roads, even though that is basically the same principle. That seems inconsistent to me.

 

[zwk500]

However it is clear that he's generally against priority for the cyclist at most roundabouts. When you have to give way to drivers means that the junction is little better than a pedestrian crossing from the point of view of the cyclist. But he doesn't argue against priority at side roads, even though that is basically the same principle. That seems inconsistent to me.

The difference is that on exiting a roundabout, you are naturally looking much further ahead up the road to assess the situation you are approaching, as you have already seen the exit of the roundabout is clear. Therefore a cyclist suddenly appearing in your peripheral vision is a hazard you could easily miss, whereas the cyclist will be able to easily see any cars exiting the roundabout.
At a side road, the driver turning across is looking into the road to check it is clear for them and slowing down to make the turn, so they are far more likely to notice a cyclist who will be at reasonable speed carrying straight ahead.

Giving way to drivers isn't ideal, but it's actually a relatively small part of the equation. Being physically separated from motor traffic is far more important IMO. At a roundabout you're slowing down anyway because you are turning and there are lots of potential hazards.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Totally agree. MK's Redways when they cross minor roads (and on older bits the odd major one) are priority to the road and it doesn't really cause much of an issue. The main thing is you've not got lorries tearing past 6 inches from your handlebars. No, of course they shouldn't. No, you're not going to solve the driver behaviour issue.

 

[biko]

The author seems to argue against the typical Dutch roundabout, like the one in Cambridge.

He uses accident statistics without taking into account that many of those with priority are in busier areas, so logically should have more accidents. It's not possible to draw a conclusion from this limited set as well.

The difference is that on exiting a roundabout, you are naturally looking much further ahead up the road to assess the situation you are approaching, as you have already seen the exit of the roundabout is clear. Therefore a cyclist suddenly appearing in your peripheral vision is a hazard you could easily miss, whereas the cyclist will be able to easily see any cars exiting the roundabout.

Dutch drivers are used to this, so always check before exiting the roundabout. And of course as a cyclist, you should always take care especially with large vehicles. In my experience car drivers are very cautious at these points. Even if I give a clear signal that I will exit the roundabout as cyclist, most drivers wait until I have done so.

 

[zwk500]

Dutch drivers are used to this, so always check before exiting the roundabout. And of course as a cyclist, you should always take care especially with large vehicles. In my experience car drivers are very cautious at these points. Even if I give a clear signal that I will exit the roundabout as cyclist, most drivers wait until I have done so.

Yes, I've noticed a generally cautious behaviour around here as well - I try and make sure I always give a clear indication which way I'm going but sometimes you have to focus on controlling the bike. I also noticed when given a lift by a friend that at every junction and roundabout, even out in pretty rural areas, they checked carefully every time.

 

[higthomas]

Regarding the Dutch roundabout, one thing to bear in mind is that apparently cycling usage has gone up by 50% and walking by 30%, so it's perhaps unsurprising that there's been some increase in collisions.

To an extent, it's also hopefully the first of many and as it becomes less unusual, drivers will become more used to them. Just look at how US drivers fail to deal with simple roundabouts to see that commoness is important in road design!

 

[Bikeman78]

Yes, an Omafiets (or tbh even a 7-speed bike) wouldn't work in the UK. But you can pick up cheap 21-gear bikes which are more than suitable. It's also noticeable (from my experience) to me that the average speed of cycling in the UK is higher than that in the Netherlands.

I could get a fixed gear Dutch bike up to a fair old speed on the flat. The bigger challenge was stopping the damn thing!

 

[zwk500]

I could get a fixed gear Dutch bike up to a fair old speed on the flat. The bigger challenge was stopping the damn thing!

The brakes being pedal-operated not lever-operated caught me out a few times when I first arrived here! I've used single-gear, 3-gear and 7-gear bikes here, all are perfectly fine but you feel it on the inclines that do exist (Limburg does have actual hills round here, even if Maastricht itself has nothing worse than MK-sized hills). Dutch bikes would be fine in East Anglian towns, and a 7-gear bike would work OK in many university towns, but for the majority of UK towns and cities you do want a fair range, 2x10 or 3x7 as a decent baseline.

 

[E27007]

"Dutch bikes would be fine in East Anglian towns, and a 7-gear bike would work OK in many university towns, but for the majority of UK towns and cities you do want a fair range, 2x10 or 3x7 as a decent baseline"

Yes and you need a 4.8 litre V8 4x4 SUV to tackle that "tricky" dropped-kerb pavement to and from your garage

 

[zwk500]

"Dutch bikes would be fine in East Anglian towns, and a 7-gear bike would work OK in many university towns, but for the majority of UK towns and cities you do want a fair range, 2x10 or 3x7 as a decent baseline"

Yes and you need a 4.8 litre V8 4x4 SUV to tackle that "tricky" dropped-kerb pavement to and from your garage

I'm not sure why you're having a dig. Most UK towns have hills that require low-range gears. Sheffield, Bristol, Brighton, London, Leeds just for starters. A 2x10 or 3x7 bike is a fairly standard bike. Not everybody does leg day or could cycle up a sustained climb with their workday stuff in a pannier.

When I moved to MK I didn't have a car for a couple of years, and when I did get one I bought a 1.6l hatchback, because that was the smallest car I could get that would still do the Motorway driving I did in bearable comfort. I commuted by bike (c.5km) for 3 years until COVID hit.

 

[johncrossley]

In a lot of cases you can get away with few gears if you walk up the steepest hills. For example, my area generally is quite flat but has some steep hills. So I just walk up those hills. It just adds a few minutes to the journey time.

 

[zwk500]

In a lot of cases you can get away with few gears if you walk up the steepest hills. For example, my area generally is quite flat but has some steep hills. So I just walk up those hills. It just adds a few minutes to the journey time.

True, but that then slows down the bike and it's not like 21 gear bikes are hard to find 2nd hand, and 20, 22 or 24 gear bikes are fairly standard from people like Halfords.

 

[E27007]

I'm not sure why you're having a dig. Most UK towns have hills that require low-range gears. Sheffield, Bristol, Brighton, London, Leeds just for starters. A 2x10 or 3x7 bike is a fairly standard bike. Not everybody does leg day or could cycle up a sustained climb with their workday stuff in a pannier.

I lived in Sheffield for three years, I know about hills in the city "especially the mis-named Flatt Street", I live in London, I know of hills such as Kings Cross to Highgate / Hampstead and Greenwich Park to Blackheath Common, I have many bikes of all descriptions, ranging from simple 2-gear bikes (an Alex Moulton TSR2) to an Alex Moulton NS (££££££), 50 years of cycling behind me, a favourite bike is a "Dutchie" heavy-weight ( I can only just lift it above shoulder height) with a Shimano 7-speed internal hubgear, the Shimano 7 has a range of 245%, ie gear 7 is 2.45 that of gear 1, with such a range I have yet to find a roadhill that is so steep I have to get off and push, nor a level road where my maximum full speed is limited by an under-geared gear 7. Nor are there any big gaps in the ratios for the 7 gears, each of the intermediate gears are is nicely spaced over the 245% range.
A Shimano 7 with a range of 245% will take you almost anywhere at minimal cost, minimal maintenance and with high reliabilty, cetainly not a gear system for East Anglia / University only

 

[zwk500]

I lived in Sheffield for three years, I know about hills in the city "especially the mis-named Flatt Street", I live in London, I know of hills such as Kings Cross to Highgate / Hampstead and Greenwich Park to Blackheath Common, I have many bikes of all descriptions, ranging from simple 2-gear bikes (an Alex Moulton TSR2) to an Alex Moulton NS (££££££), 50 years of cycling behind me, a favourite bike is a "Dutchie" heavy-weight ( I can only just lift it above shoulder height) with a Shimano 7-speed internal hubgear, the Shimano 7 has a range of 245%, ie gear 7 is 2.45 that of gear 1, with such a range I have yet to find a roadhill that is so steep I have to get off and push, nor a level road where my maximum full speed is limited by an under-geared gear 7. Nor are there any big gaps in the ratios for the 7 gears, each of the intermediate gears are is nicely spaced over the 245% range.
A Shimano 7 with a range of 245% will take you almost anywhere at minimal cost, minimal maintenance and with high reliabilty, cetainly not a gear system for East Anglia / University only

Most UK cyclists don't have 50 years of cycling in their legs. I'm a lock-forward rugby player with 20 years of cycling in my legs and I would go from 8th gear on biggest ring to 4th gear on middle ring in MK (Carrera Crossfire).

Maybe in a generation or two when we've got cycling as normal a part of UK culture as the Dutch have, then 7-speeds will be fine. But you're not going to convince people to get out of their cars by judging them for not being able to get up a Pennine on a 7-speed bike.

 

[johncrossley]

If I lived in Brighton or Sheffield I'd probably have an electric bike. Of course, electric bikes are not just used in hilly areas. There are plenty used in the Netherlands and the flat plains of northern Germany. They enable older people to continue cycling and for commuting longer distances. In London your average food deliverer uses an electric bike.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 May 2023 ==

True, but that then slows down the bike and it's not like 21 gear bikes are hard to find 2nd hand, and 20, 22 or 24 gear bikes are fairly standard from people like Halfords.

The problem is that city bikes generally only have 6 gears. The cheap bikes with lots of gears tend to be low quality mountain bikes and you have to adapt them for utility use. For example, rear rack and mudguards.

They could easily make city bikes with 6 low gears only. All they have to do is put a small chainring at the front.

Derailleur gears of any kind means regular cleaning compared to hub gears.

 

[E27007]

If I lived in Brighton or Sheffield I'd probably have an electric bike. Of course, electric bikes are not just used in hilly areas. There are plenty used in the Netherlands and the flat plains of northern Germany. They enable older people to continue cycling and for commuting longer distances. In London your average food deliverer uses an electric bike.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 May 2023 ==


The problem is that city bikes generally only have 6 gears. The cheap bikes with lots of gears tend to be low quality mountain bikes and you have to adapt them for utility use. For example, rear rack and mudguards.

They could easily make city bikes with 6 low gears only. All they have to do is put a small chainring at the front.

Derailleur gears of any kind means regular cleaning compared to hub gears.

Utility cyclists and cycling, (the subject of the forum) tend to have a limited comprehension of mechanical systems, an inability to adjust or maintain the derailleur and worse or all, how to make proper use of the derailleur system.
i have ridden with groups of utility cyclists and gone home in head-in-hands despair at some of their antics. The front changer is their nightmare, they avoid using it (it makes my chain fall off) and leave the chain on the big ring, they do all their gear changing on the rear block, with the chain on the big rightmost front ring and the rear leftmost sprockets the chain running-line is awful, way off the desired straight-line or near straight-line the chain requires.
Just returned from Devon, spent an hour sorting outr asn expensive derailleur bike owned by a woman, the bike wasting away in the garage because she cannot get along with the gears, ends up walking the bike up moderate hills because she cannot master changing gear. She would be better off, have more success in riding without that derailleur, I'm looking for a Shimano 7-gear internal hub which I will lace into a new rim for her and give her some simple gears she can understand,

 

[johncrossley]

Utility cyclists and cycling, (the subject of the forum) tend to have a limited comprehension of mechanical systems, an inability to adjust or maintain the derailleur and worse or all, how to make proper use of the derailleur system.

They just want a bike to work with a minimum of fuss. Is that so bad?

 

[Bikeman78]

Its the demand for showers, and then the "we have showers so you can cycle" that is the issue - non-cyclists infer that cycling to work must require a shower, with the implication that if you ride to work and don't shower you must be a bit skanky.

I've been riding five miles to work for 15 years. Never had a shower on arrival. On a hot day, I ride more slowly.

 

[chipbury]

I'm intrigued by the comment above that a 7 speed shimano hub will get you everywhere.
I use a 14 Rohloff (admittedly a bit of overkill for most people), but looking at the 14 speed percentage range if I was to choose @ 250% out of the @ 500% I have available i'd either end up not being able to get up the 1 in 4 hill on the way home with two full panniers, or have a very reduced top speed as I'd spin out.

 

[JamesT]

I'm intrigued by the comment above that a 7 speed shimano hub will get you everywhere.
I use a 14 Rohloff (admittedly a bit of overkill for most people), but looking at the 14 speed percentage range if I was to choose @ 250% out of the @ 500% I have available i'd either end up not being able to get up the 1 in 4 hill on the way home with two full panniers, or have a very reduced top speed as I'd spin out.

I found it interesting when looking to replace my bike that the more expensive bikes seemed to have fewer gears. But there’s very much a focus on bike weight for the high end. My previous bike was 3x8, my new one is 2x9. The higher model in the range from the manufacturer is 1x12!
But Oxford does have a few hills that need a bit of range and I doubt saving a few hundred grams is going to make much difference compared to the tens of kilos of slightly unfit me and my panniers.

 

[E27007]

They just want a bike to work with a minimum of fuss. Is that so bad?

A bike which works with the minimum fuss is exactly what is required, the bicycle market is biased to making and selling high-tech fashion and leisure products, the point I wish to make is "more is less" i have ridden with a number of cyclists who would be happier and more successful in their cycling endeavours with less tech and more utilty, my recent trip to Devon involved a lady who had been sold a bicycle well beyond her needs and capacity to comprehend and utilise effectively, she did not enjoy her riding experience, consequently it sat in her garage unused and deteriorating. The proper bicycle for her needs would be one of those upright Dutch-manufactured Royal Gazelle step-through frame with an 8-speed Shimano Alfine hub gear, handlebar-mounted twistgrip gearchanger, hub brakes, dynamo lighting and weatherproof chaincase. A Rolls-Royce limosine of a bicycle, as the owner of such a bicycle, she would have ridden daily and truly enjoyed her cycling experience.

 

[zwk500]

A bike which works with the minimum fuss is exactly what is required, ... a number of cyclists who would be happier and more successful in their cycling endeavours with less tech and more utilty,

I certainly would back this call.

 

[E27007]

I'm intrigued by the comment above that a 7 speed shimano hub will get you everywhere.
I use a 14 Rohloff (admittedly a bit of overkill for most people), but looking at the 14 speed percentage range if I was to choose @ 250% out of the @ 500% I have available i'd either end up not being able to get up the 1 in 4 hill on the way home with two full panniers, or have a very reduced top speed as I'd spin out.

My comment was: a Shimano 7-speed hub will take you ALMOST anywhere, as for 1 in 4 gradients, there at not many, as a "stunt " I have cycled up a 1 in 4 on a Shimano Alfine 8-speed internal hub gear (to much applause from my cycling group), The Rohloff 14, I have sampled one, a £1500 solution to a non-problem , the Rohloff grates and grinds "the coffee-grinder hub gear" A Shimano Alfine 11-speed is a fraction of the price of a £1500 Rohloff and does not offend the ear.

 

[dangie]

I’m 72 and have been cycling for probably 65 of those years. Everything from fixed wheel, Sturmy Archer 3 speed, through to 3x9 Shimano/Sram. My current road bike, a Trek FX3 ‘hybrid’ has a 1x10 setup. A 40 tooth chainring with a 11-46 cassette. This is by far the most ‘useful’ range of gears I’ve ever had. Not too bad a step between gears and best of all no duplicate gears. A gears are used. Brilliant.

 

[E27007]

I’m 72 and have been cycling for probably 65 of those years. Everything from fixed wheel, Sturmy Archer 3 speed, through to 3x9 Shimano/Sram. My current road bike, a Trek FX3 ‘hybrid’ has a 1x10 setup. A 40 tooth chainring with a 11-46 cassette. This is by far the most ‘useful’ range of gears I’ve ever had. Not too bad a step between gears and best of all no duplicate gears. A gears are used. Brilliant.

You are clearly an experienced cyclist, 11 to 42 is an impressive range, close to 400%, but please think of the chain-run, that chain is considerably ""out of line" front to rear when on the extremities of the top and bottom range of the gears, the setup works, but what is the logic behind bending a chain through an imperfect angle as it transmits a force?

 

[chipbury]

My comment was: a Shimano 7-speed hub will take you ALMOST anywhere, as for 1 in 4 gradients, there at not many, as a "stunt " I have cycled up a 1 in 4 on a Shimano Alfine 8-speed internal hub gear (to much applause from my cycling group), The Rohloff 14, I have sampled one, a £1500 solution to a non-problem , the Rohloff grates and grinds "the coffee-grinder hub gear" A Shimano Alfine 11-speed is a fraction of the price of a £1500 Rohloff and does not offend the ear.

I'll not get into a Shimano/Hohloff discussion as there's plenty threads on cyling forums for that!

I will say I'd never go back to a derailleur bike - wearing out multiple sets of drive train components and the faff/expense (more the faff to be honest) of replacing them. A yearly oil change with a hub gear (at the time of your choosing) is a much more pleasureable cycling experience.

 

[dangie]

You are clearly an experienced cyclist, 11 to 42 is an impressive range, close to 400%, but please think of the chain-run, that chain is considerably ""out of line" front to rear when on the extremities of the top and bottom range of the gears, the setup works, but what is the logic behind bending a chain through an imperfect angle as it transmits a force?

With respect, and I know what you mean as I was taught not to mismatch chainring/cassette angle, this certainly applied more when inexperienced riders would ride multi chainrings pairing large chainring with largest cassette & vice versa. This would result in poor chain line. However with only having a single chainring this poor chainline effect is reduced considerably.

If you watch modern professional cycling on television you will often see the ‘pros’ riding large chainring with large cassette. Last year when Lizzie Diegnan won the inaugural women’s Paris Roubaix cycle race she did it on a 1x12 set up. I think it has more positives than negatives.

 

[zwk500]

With respect, and I know what you mean as I was taught not to mismatch chainring/cassette angle, this certainly applied more when inexperienced riders would ride multi chainrings pairing large chainring with largest cassette & vice versa. This would result in poor chain line. However with only having a single chainring this poor chainline effect is reduced considerably.

If you watch modern professional cycling on television you will often see the ‘pros’ riding large chainring with large cassette. Last year when Lizzie Diegnan won the inaugural women’s Paris Roubaix cycle race she did it on a 1x12 set up. I think it has more positives than negatives.

but the key point, which @E27007 has referred to before, is that we are trying to get very much not professional cyclists on to bikes. You need simple bikes to do that, but ones that can allow non-practiced riders to ascend most gradients. I had overlooked this point a bit because 1. I'm used to a 3-ring bike and 2. I quite like doing the strip and clean of my bike every now and again.
The other key part to this is making things cheap. Hybrid 3x6/7/8 bikes are easy enough to get hold of but do need a lot of maintenance - my hub geared bike spends almost it's entire life on the street and won't coat my trousers in oil because it's all enclosed. These are very useful features for commuter biking - look at the spec for the London Cycle Hire scheme.