Autumn refresh for GWR Class 165/166 Turbos

[HamworthyGoods]

I’m sure this has been covered before, so sorry, but will the 166s have their former first class area removed during the refresh? And if it’s staying, will they be in the leather or moquette styling?

DfT has chosen not to fund any interior changes in this refresh so it’ll be like the 165 3 car refurbs where first class has been recovered in the new GWR flat cloth seat covers.

 

[GWVillager]

DfT has chosen not to fund any interior changes in this refresh so it’ll be like the 165 3 car refurbs where first class has been recovered in the new GWR flat cloth seat covers.

Ah alright, will they remove the tables like on the 3 car 165s?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Ah alright, will they remove the tables like on the 3 car 165s?

No, I did say the DfT had chosen no to make any interior changes.

The 3 car 165s only had the small ‘trinket tables’ many of which had already been removed (largely through vandalism) but those which did remain have remained most refresh.

 

[Deepgreen]

No leather I can tell you that with 110% confidence.

100% would be adequate.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Apr 2023 ==

For all of the issues with the turbos, supply of charging outlets isn't really one of them.

There's hardly a huge uptake in their use, partly because there are only a handful of proper tables per 166 at which anyone is likely to use a laptop.

However, I do see quite a few people using laptops on...their laps.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Apr 2023 ==

There were nearly brand new units that included a paint warranty, so was reluctance to repaint these during warranty period.

The 166s were repainted not long before brand changed, but the repaint has had to last almost 8 years (and will no doubt be around many more months)

Yes, but I wonder why they were repainted at that juncture when a short wait would have seen them take the new livery. Was the brand change such a rushed decision that this sort of thing couldn't have been planned better? However, much though I dislike the blue livery, it does at least have a sensible yellow band for first class, so it has its benefits (see also today's 'The Railway Centre' web site's Picture of the Day).

 

[Snow1964]

However, I do see quite a few people using laptops on...their laps.

Never seen anyone plug them in on a turbo, the socket is by your knees if got a window seat, forcing knees sideways so then have to then sit twisted, which makes balancing it on lap difficult.
If you are in the middle or aisle seat need to dangle the cable over others legs if you plug it in.
Fairly bad design, probably influenced by adding sockets at easiest and cheapest location.

 

[Deepgreen]

Never seen anyone plug them in on a turbo, the socket is by your knees if got a window seat, forcing knees sideways so then have to then sit twisted, which makes balancing it on lap difficult.
If you are in the middle or aisle seat need to dangle the cable over others legs if you plug it in.
Fairly bad design, probably influenced by adding sockets at easiest and cheapest location.

Yep.

 

[GWVillager]

However, much though I dislike the blue livery, it does at least have a sensible yellow band for first class

I believe GWR's 769s had a yellow band for first class. Why they didn't do this with the 16X's refresh I don't know.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I believe GWR's 769s had a yellow band for first class. Why they didn't do this with the 16X's refresh I don't know.

It’s only 165 3 cars which have first class for the North Downs.

When the refreshment programme was scoped and budgeted for these units were at that stage to have that area declassified to standard as part of their move to the ‘West’ fleet to be replaced by 769s.

You can’t just ring up Gemini at Wolverton works and say can you paint this on for free. It’s been pointed out on this thread earlier how budget constrained this refresh has been so painting the outside (even just the yellow markings) is outside the scope and thus outside the agreed budget. This is what happens when you have the railway under the micro management of the treasury.

 

[fgwrich]

I believe GWR's 769s had a yellow band for first class. Why they didn't do this with the 16X's refresh I don't know.

It’s only 165 3 cars which have first class for the North Downs.

When the refreshment programme was scoped and budgeted for these units were at that stage to have that area declassified to standard as part of their move to the ‘West’ fleet to be replaced by 769s.

You can’t just ring up Gemini at Wolverton works and say can you paint this on for free. It’s been pointed out on this thread earlier how budget constrained this refresh has been so painting the outside (even just the yellow markings) is outside the scope and thus outside the agreed budget. This is what happens when you have the railway under the micro management of the treasury.

Whilst I fully understand the frustrations of the tightness of the grip held by the treasury, there is still a number of inconsistencies in GWRs branding across its fleet. Using the HSTs this week, some sets use the coloured 'flags' and more modern carriage letter stickers, while others have the original GWR A / B / C of the 2015 brand roll out. Also noticeable is how some of the doors are marked out - the sets with the 'flags' have a much wider marked out door than those without, with one having both after an obvious vehicle swap. Thankfully these extras are just vinyl and at least are fairly cheap to do, but it would be nice to see them actually standardise on something (and hopefully drop that silly silver stripe for FC).

 

[387star]

I travelled on two hugely contrasting 165s on the North Downs line today - 165116 (refurbished) had full first class labelling, anti-macassars, etc., and actually had the spotlights working (albeit one switch in my set of four seats was wired the wrong way round) - I never expected to see those working again! The return journey was on 165103, unrefurbished and with nothing showing first class whatsoever inside - needless to say it was treated as standard class by passengers from Reading and the guard chose to do ticket checks only after Guildford, when it had emptied out! With such a shoddy lack of labelling on board I don't blame the guard for not trying to enforce first class (legally probably not possible). It is really poor that GWR have abandoned the unrefurbished units like this - I suspect the staff have no idea whether first class is in operation on the route or not - the outward journey saw the guard walking through several times but with no ticket checks, despite it being only moderately busy. Again, even though the first class labelling was fine on 116, the staff just can't know what is going on with such a mixture of quality on the route. This shambles would never have been allowed on BR, where it was sacrosanct that first class was properly labelled on any train put into service (some refurbished 165 units were put back into use after refurbishment with no labelling in place for weeks). BTW, I saw 165104 arriving at Dorking Deepdene with an appendage on the cab roof - is this a track-recording camera or similar (sorry if I've missed this earlier in the thread)?

View attachment 133380

The swr station announcements are wrongly announcing the trains having first class accommodation so there are a few glitches!

 

[Benjwri]

Whilst I fully understand the frustrations of the tightness of the grip held by the treasury, there is still a number of inconsistencies in GWRs branding across its fleet. Using the HSTs this week, some sets use the coloured 'flags' and more modern carriage letter stickers, while others have the original GWR A / B / C of the 2015 brand roll out. Also noticeable is how some of the doors are marked out - the sets with the 'flags' have a much wider marked out door than those without, with one having both after an obvious vehicle swap. Thankfully these extras are just vinyl and at least are fairly cheap to do, but it would be nice to see them actually standardise on something (and hopefully drop that silly silver stripe for FC).

The HST fleet is a different story though, they’ve always been a stop gap, and their departure has been imminent for some time. Regardless of anyone’s opinions on the departure itself, not spending money on a fleet with very limited life left is one of the smarter decisions that’s been made.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

100% would be adequate.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Apr 2023 ==

What does this response even mean?

 

[fgwrich]

The HST fleet is a different story though, they’ve always been a stop gap, and their departure has been imminent for some time. Regardless of anyone’s opinions on the departure itself, not spending money on a fleet with very limited life left is one of the smarter decisions that’s been made.

While I agree that not spending much money on a fleet with a limited life is a fairly smart decision (though perhaps they could have lavished a little more on them considering they own half of them and have got them out of many holes so far) the change of branding happened despite knowing they were due to be a stop gap - the flag and larger marked doors are a much later addition, so they have spent a little more money on them since they first came out of Wabtec. In fact, the side mounted PA screens were another later addition. So, despite being a short term stop gap they're still inconsistent in the branding.

Ignoring the Yellow / No yellow markings for FC, they haven't rolled out the door flags to the Turbo fleets either, nor any other DMU. Hopefully they may be included in some of the remaining Blue to Green repaints.

 

[northernbelle]

While I agree that not spending much money on a fleet with a limited life is a fairly smart decision (though perhaps they could have lavished a little more on them considering they own half of them and have got them out of many holes so far) the change of branding happened despite knowing they were due to be a stop gap - the flag and larger marked doors are a much later addition, so they have spent a little more money on them since they first came out of Wabtec. In fact, the side mounted PA screens were another later addition. So, despite being a short term stop gap they're still inconsistent in the branding.

Ignoring the Yellow / No yellow markings for FC, they haven't rolled out the door flags to the Turbo fleets either, nor any other DMU. Hopefully they may be included in some of the remaining Blue to Green repaints.

The last four sets to be refurbished had the revised branding from the outset. The original sets have not had any rebranding and have the original style coach letters etc. All the sets currently have the branding they received at refurbishment.

It has been financial policy ever since the GWR brand was launched that vehicles would only be repainted if they were due to be. The same has been true of the stickers applied on top of the paintwork.

 

[Mike Machin]

No, not fare dodging per se, but travelling in 'first' with a standard ticket, which ticket barriers will not pick up, obviously. My point was that because there was no labelling the guard could not have enforced it anyway (and I feel sorry for the guards on this route who have been messed about by GWR's ongoing labelling failure for ages now), but for those with first class tickets it's a shambles and money spent for no benefit at all, just because they happened to be on an unrefurbished unit which GWR have abandoned (why can't they even put anti-macassars out to carry the first class signing?).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Apr 2023 ==


I do wonder if this is a record for old livery survival! Starting in 1967, BR maroon was replaced gradually by blue and grey but I'm not sure if any maroons survived for eight years!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Apr 2023 ==


Thanks - I assumed something like that.

The first application of BR Blue and Grey made its debut on the stock XP64 prototype train, together with a handful of MK1s re-liveried to run with the new coaches. A very slight modification was made to this livery when it made its appearance on a few MK1 vehicles at the very start of 1965 - the first blue and grey MK1 I saw was in a Bournemouth to York through train in January of that year - as a youngster I was really excited about such a strange looking livery!

BR maroon started to disappear relatively quickly, but a sizeable minority of vehicles lingered on and I well remember the through trains on summer Saturdays to Southampton/Portsmouth from the midlands and the north still contained a fair sprinkling of such vehicles into the early 1970s. Eventually, a number of maroon MK1s were assembled into a single rake, often referred to as 'the Derby maroon set' and was this set certainly still around in 1974, and I think the last few individual straggler examples just about made it into 1975.

So from debut of blue and grey to the extinction of maroon was around just over 10 years.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

The first application of BR Blue and Grey made its debut on the stock XP64 prototype train, together with a handful of MK1s re-liveried to run with the new coaches. A very slight modification was made to this livery when it made its appearance on a few MK1 vehicles at the very start of 1965 - the first blue and grey MK1 I saw was in a Bournemouth to York through train in January of that year - as a youngster I was really excited about such a strange looking livery!

BR maroon started to disappear relatively quickly, but a sizeable minority of vehicles lingered on and I well remember the through trains on summer Saturdays to Southampton/Portsmouth from the midlands and the north still contained a fair sprinkling of such vehicles into the early 1970s. Eventually, a number of maroon MK1s were assembled into a single rake, often referred to as 'the Derby maroon set' and was this set certainly still around in 1974, and I think the last few individual straggler examples just about made it into 1975.

So from debut of blue and grey to the extinction of maroon was around just over 10 years.

And extinction of Blue and Grey took even longer!

 

[3973EXL]

Realtime Trains | 5Q74 0944 Wolverton Centre Sidings to Reading Traincare Depot | 26/04/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q74 0944 departure from Wolverton Centre Sidings to Reading Traincare Depot on 26/04/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 5Q70 1442 Reading Traincare Depot to Wolverton Centre Sidings | 26/04/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q70 1442 departure from Reading Traincare Depot to Wolverton Centre Sidings on 26/04/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[FGW_DID]

Realtime Trains | 5Q74 0944 Wolverton Centre Sidings to Reading Traincare Depot | 26/04/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q74 0944 departure from Wolverton Centre Sidings to Reading Traincare Depot on 26/04/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 5Q70 1442 Reading Traincare Depot to Wolverton Centre Sidings | 26/04/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q70 1442 departure from Reading Traincare Depot to Wolverton Centre Sidings on 26/04/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

5Q74 = 165107
5Q70 = 165110

 

[JonathanH]

165104 appears to have had its 'forehead' disfigured by the addition of an appendage. Looks awful.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

165104 appears to have had its 'forehead' disfigured by the addition of the ASDO beacon fitted to the 769s. Looks awful.

A train with a "disfigured forehead," goodness me Have you got a link to any pictures, as I think that sounds very amusing indeed

 

[JonathanH]

It just ruins the 'clean curves' of the Turbo front end.

 

[FGW_DID]

165104 appears to have had its 'forehead' disfigured by the addition of the ASDO beacon fitted to the 769s. Looks awful.

It’s the LIDAR infrastructure monitoring system. Also fitted to one of the 2 cars (124 rings a bell). Been mentioned before on the thread.

 

[JonathanH]

Ah, I assumed it was ASDO like the 769s. Thanks for the correction. Still looks awful.

I see that I missed it on the last page - https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ss-165-166-turbos.222366/page-29#post-6179566

 

[Ashley Hill]

It just ruins the 'clean curves' of the Turbo front end.
View attachment 134611

It looks like a doorbell .

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It just ruins the 'clean curves' of the Turbo front end.
View attachment 134611

Okay, so you definitely made it out to be a lot more of a drastic change than what it is then. It's just a tiny little thing on top of the windscreen. It looks hardly noticeable tbh.

 

[Techniquest]

It looks like a doorbell .

It looks like it's wearing a GoPro, ready to record a thrilling journey for its YouTube channel!

 

[fgwrich]

It just ruins the 'clean curves' of the Turbo front end.
View attachment 134611

To be honest, the (albeit necessary) Turbo Cab Air conditioning did that a while ago with a spot on its chin!

 

[Mikey C]

To be honest, the (albeit necessary) Turbo Cab Air conditioning did that a while ago with a spot on its chin!

Now it's got a zit on its forehead

 

[FGW_DID]

Next Turbo swap day should be Friday 12th May.

5Q74 Wolverton - Reading TCD (165105)

5Q70 Reading TCD - Wolverton (165112)

 

[Rob F]

What does this response even mean?

I would imagine it means that it is not possible to be more than 100% confident. And he is correct.