Utility cycling, hills and other practicalities - the Netherlands vs. elsewhere

[Bletchleyite]

From: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/oxford-low-traffic-neighbourhood.247180/page-2#post-6178678

Hills aren't really a serious problem for most of the population though, especially if you're cycling regularly for more than 6 months. Pennine towns and elderly/young kids aside, you can pick up a perfectly decent bike for less than £100 that will do most hills in UK city centres. The problem is convincing people to stick with it as their legs adjust to whatever hill they're climbing. Once it's in your legs, you won't notice it so much unless you're in a town like Sheffield or Bristol and even then most working age people should be fit enough to cope, although an e-bike may be needed if you've got much more than a laptop on your back.

I'm very heavy (even lean I would be) and I can assure you that despite being quite fit I feel hills!

I don't like cycling up the hill from the Teardrop Lakes all the way up to Xscape, say (though cycling down it is fun). However many times I've done it, and I spent a fair bit of time doing it daily as a commute, I always end up in a bucket of sweat by the top.

Interestingly, I originally moved to MK with the view to not owning a car (ha!) and did have my bike, but cycling everywhere was a bit much. I do wonder if I'd have bought a car quite as soon if I'd had an e-bike with a decent cargo capacity back then. They weren't much of a thing in the 90s (and nor were things like supermarket deliveries, which really do make living without a car a lot easier). While it'd take a bit longer to get places, I'd say living in MK with just a decent cargo e-bike (not a massive Bakfiets*, just one with a decent load carrier on the back, the kind Londoners seem to sit kids on) would be entirely feasible. Whereas the distances and hills are such that a normal bike is a lot of effort unless you live a very local life, even if there's the benefit of being able to do almost any journey without cycling on a road.

* Literally "baker's bike" because Dutch bakers used them for deliveries.

What really holds back the UK is that people seem insistent on buying brand new bikes that cost several hundred or several thousand pounds and then there is nowhere secure to leave them. In the Netherlands you don't have to worry about that because everybody uses a bike that's older than them and there's a bike rack on every corner.

That and if you do have a fancy bike there's often a bewaakte Fietsenstalling (staffed cycle storage) where you can leave it genuinely securely.

Of course an Omafiets (the traditional stepthrough ladies' style sit up and beg bike most Dutch people of all genders ride around towns - literally "granny bike") isn't much good if there are any hills at all, unless you're young, fit and lithe enough to be zooming round cities on a fixie.

The hills help because you can use single gear, 3 gear of 7 gear bikes which are internal hubs rather than external derailleurs but I think hills are a mental barrier more than a physical one.

I've ridden Dutch hub geared bikes in the UK, and unfortunately the basic design of hub gears don't work for hilly places very well. The reason for this is that that type of gearset works on doubling ratios, so you have a very long gap between some of the gears. In both cases I ended up selling up and replacing with a derailleur-fitted bike of a similar (fully equipped urban hybrid) type - Decathlon do an excellent range for very good value prices, basically imported straight from France where there's a decent amount of urban cycling and there are hills.

 

[chipbury]

Regarding the hub gear comment, I use a non electric hub gear bike with 14 ratios. The gears are equally spaced with enough range for me to climb steep hills and get a decent speed up on the flat/slight downhill. I went for this as I was destroying the components of a derailleur set up on a regular basis due to the poor conditions of the canal tow paths I need to cycle along to get to/from home.
I appreciate this kind of hub gear is not cheap however so not available to a lot of people.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Regarding the hub gear comment, I use a non electric hub gear bike with 14 ratios. The gears are equally spaced with enough range for me to climb steep hills and get a decent speed up on the flat/slight downhill. I went for this as I was destroying the components of a derailleur set up on a regular basis due to the poor conditions of the canal tow paths I need to cycle along to get to/from home.
I appreciate this kind of hub gear is not cheap however so not available to a lot of people.

Yeah, not cheap. The basic 3-speed design found on most Dutch bikes (except those which are single speed and some more expensive ones with 7 gears) involves doubling the ratio as you step up because of the physics of how these hubs work.

I suspect yours is in effect two joined together - a 7 speed and a 2 speed - in one box, replicating the more common setup on UK bikes of a front and rear derailleur with, as you say, less susceptibility to dirt and stones getting stuck in it.

The second Dutch bike I had was a 7, and I fitted a larger cog on it to get lower ratios (otherwise first was a bit too low for a hilly place), but the range was fairly limited and some of the steps quite big so I prefer a derailleur. It's also a lot less faff to take the wheel off on a derailleur bike e.g. to put it in the car - to take the back wheel off my Dutch bike probably took 10-15 minutes of faffing, and the same to put it back on.

One of these I guess?

Hub - Speedhub 500/14 CC

Disc Speedhub 500/14 14 Speed Internal gear hub with Hollow Quick release type axle. 32H only. 135mm spaced. Boxed kit includes hub cables & O.E.M or OEM2 Axle plate. Special 4 bolt Disc fitting. (Disc not included... available as Rohloff specific part for most brake systems from Hope...

www.swinnertoncycles.co.uk

1200 quid just for the gears!

 

[chipbury]

It's a Rohloff Speedhub, their website is quite interesting of you like that kind of thing!

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's a Rohloff Speedhub, their website is quite interesting of you like that kind of thing!

Yeah, just found it, quite extraordinarily expensive for a bicycle component! Heading into the price of a car gearbox (though not quite)...

 

[cactustwirly]

The other problem with cycling is that your bike is very likely to go missing.
I know thieves target train stations etc and cut the locks with bolt cutters

 

[zwk500]

From: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/oxford-low-traffic-neighbourhood.247180/page-2#post-6178678

I'm very heavy (even lean I would be) and I can assure you that despite being quite fit I feel hills!

I don't like cycling up the hill from the Teardrop Lakes all the way up to Xscape, say (though cycling down it is fun). However many times I've done it, and I spent a fair bit of time doing it daily as a commute, I always end up in a bucket of sweat by the top.

Interestingly, I originally moved to MK with the view to not owning a car (ha!) and did have my bike, but cycling everywhere was a bit much. I do wonder if I'd have bought a car quite as soon if I'd had an e-bike with a decent cargo capacity back then. They weren't much of a thing in the 90s (and nor were things like supermarket deliveries, which really do make living without a car a lot easier). While it'd take a bit longer to get places, I'd say living in MK with just a decent cargo e-bike (not a massive Bakfiets*, just one with a decent load carrier on the back, the kind Londoners seem to sit kids on) would be entirely feasible. Whereas the distances and hills are such that a normal bike is a lot of effort unless you live a very local life, even if there's the benefit of being able to do almost any journey without cycling on a road.

I used to live in Wolverton and cycle to work every day, however it wouldn't have been possible without shower facilities at my work - which is another part of cycle infrastructure. The true Dutch style of just jumping on your bike in a shirt and slacks isn't feasible in the UK, I will happily admit.
However in contrast my Uncle used to cycle from Totley (literally right above Dore and Totley station) to the University of Sheffield everyday on the same bike for about 20 years, and did so right up until COVID. And Sheffield is hardly a flat city.

That and if you do have a fancy bike there's often a bewaakte Fietsenstalling (staffed cycle storage) where you can leave it genuinely securely.

Of course an Omafiets (the traditional stepthrough ladies' style sit up and beg bike most Dutch people of all genders ride around towns - literally "granny bike") isn't much good if there are any hills at all, unless you're young, fit and lithe enough to be zooming round cities on a fixie.

Yes, an Omafiets (or tbh even a 7-speed bike) wouldn't work in the UK. But you can pick up cheap 21-gear bikes which are more than suitable. It's also noticeable (from my experience) to me that the average speed of cycling in the UK is higher than that in the Netherlands.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I used to live in Wolverton and cycle to work every day, however it wouldn't have been possible without shower facilities at my work - which is another part of cycle infrastructure. The true Dutch style of just jumping on your bike in a shirt and slacks isn't feasible in the UK, I will happily admit.

Though it quite possibly is on an e-bike. I used one of the hire e-bikes to go and pick up my car from CMK the other day having left it there after a few pints and taken a taxi home (saved me faffing about taking the wheels off mine, and the scooters aren't as nice to ride) and I hadn't broken a sweat at all on arrival, I was more in the sort of condition I would have been had I walked at a relaxed pace - clearly I'd put some effort in, but not lots. I really enjoyed it, actually, and am now quite tempted to investigate purchasing one, though one off-putter is the lack of secure storage and bike theft problem in CMK, so I'd need some pretty hefty locks and a watertight insurance policy.

However in contrast my Uncle used to cycle from Totley (literally right above Dore and Totley station) to the University of Sheffield everyday on the same bike for about 20 years, and did so right up until COVID. And Sheffield is hardly a flat city.

There are some superfit people out there. The whole population won't ever be that, and neither are the Dutch (even though they tend to have chunkier legs than your average British person due to more cycling).

Yes, an Omafiets (or tbh even a 7-speed bike) wouldn't work in the UK. But you can pick up cheap 21-gear bikes which are more than suitable. It's also noticeable (from my experience) to me that the average speed of cycling in the UK is higher than that in the Netherlands.

In reality a Megarange (a Shimano trademark, but others I think do them) rear setup is worth more than 21 gears. Mine has a 9 speed rear with a very large first gear cog and only one on the front, in ratio terms it's plenty and easier to maintain, and means the front can have a chainguard. However it's still effort spinning out up Midsummer Boulevard, though someone who weighs 12 stone rather than my 22 is likely to see that a bit differently (I'm a very big guy, I'd be about 16 stone lean I reckon).

 

[zwk500]

Though it quite possibly is on an e-bike. I used one of the hire e-bikes to go and pick up my car from CMK the other day having left it there after a few pints and taken a taxi home (saved me faffing about taking the wheels off mine, and the scooters aren't as nice to ride) and I hadn't broken a sweat at all on arrival, I was more in the sort of condition I would have been had I walked at a relaxed pace - clearly I'd put some effort in, but not lots. I really enjoyed it, actually, and am now quite tempted to investigate purchasing one, though one off-putter is the lack of secure storage and bike theft problem in CMK, so I'd need some pretty hefty locks and a watertight insurance policy.

E-bikes certainly are game changers, but I don't think they'll ever be a majority of the cycling in the UK. They simply cost too much. And again - it's the infrastructure around cycling that local government should really be focusing on.

There are some superfit people out there. The whole population won't ever be that, and neither are the Dutch (even though they tend to have chunkier legs than your average British person due to more cycling).

He's not what you'd call 'superfit'. He's on the fitter side for his age group but probably not out of the normal range. But because he's been doing it for 20 years he can keep going much later than somebody his age trying to pick it up. This is something I've seen in the Netherlands as well - kid start early, and I get passed by Grandparents on normal bikes (let alone on their e-bikes).

In reality a Megarange rear setup is worth more than 21 gears. Mine has a 9 speed rear with a very large first gear cog and none on the front, in ratio terms it's plenty and easier to maintain. However it's still effort spinning out up Midsummer Boulevard, though someone who weighs 12 stone rather than my 22 is likely to see that a bit differently (I'm a very big guy, I'd be about 16 stone lean I reckon).

Very possibly - my dad has a 2x10 bike and I prefer it over my (now previous) 3x8 gears on the South Downs. I am 12 stone (and 6'1") and used to find riding up Midsummer Boulevard on the 24 gear bike no big issue if you took it slow, so can imagine somebody a bit bigger might appreciate the 9/10 speed rear setup more.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Very possibly - my dad has a 2x10 bike and I prefer it over my (now previous) 3x8 gears on the South Downs. I am 12 stone (and 6'1") and used to find riding up Midsummer Boulevard on the 24 gear bike no big issue if you took it slow, so can imagine somebody a bit bigger might appreciate the 9/10 speed rear setup more.

Now imagine doing it with you taking a back-seater as well. Cycling on the flat weight makes little difference, going uphill it makes a massive one. To be fair I've got bigger leg muscles to provide for my bigger size, but I've not got hugely bigger lungs, most of my height is in my legs, and I've also got asthma!

Though I suppose the average person isn't (anywhere near) 22 stone and probably closer to you in build.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Though it quite possibly is on an e-bike. I used one of the hire e-bikes to go and pick up my car from CMK the other day having left it there after a few pints and taken a taxi home (saved me faffing about taking the wheels off mine, and the scooters aren't as nice to ride) and I hadn't broken a sweat at all on arrival, I was more in the sort of condition I would have been had I walked at a relaxed pace - clearly I'd put some effort in, but not lots.

So much this. I regularly cycle two six-year olds to school on a six-mile round trip of moderately hilly Cotswold roads. With the e-bike (a Tern GSD) I don't break sweat at all. When I rode just one kid on a tandem, I'd always need a shower when I got back. I can't recommend bikes like the Tern enough.

 

[zwk500]

Now imagine doing it with you taking a back-seater as well. Cycling on the flat weight makes little difference, going uphill it makes a massive one.

100%. E-bikes are rapidly gaining popularity among parents in the Netherlands, including e-cargo bikes. I am deeply in awe of any parent I see with a normal bakfiets, especially if it's got a wooden cargo compartment (most are now plastic shells moulded for seats), and usually a child or 2 sometimes bouncing around in the front.

To be fair I've got bigger leg muscles to provide for my bigger size, but I've not got hugely bigger lungs, most of my height is in my legs, and I've also got asthma!

I'm slightly cheating as I play lock-forward for grassroots rugby!

Though I suppose the average person isn't (anywhere near) 22 stone and probably closer to you in build.

Indeed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So much this. I regularly cycle two six-year olds to school on a six-mile round trip of moderately hilly Cotswold roads. With the e-bike (a Tern GSD) I don't break sweat at all. When I rode just one kid on a tandem, I'd always need a shower when I got back. I can't recommend bikes like the Tern enough.

I'm looking with some interest at the Tern range and similar ones, they seem to be specifically designed as e-bikes with carrying capacity rather than just adding a motor to a normal bike and bodging a small rack on. Pricey though.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

They certainly are pricey but absolutely worth every penny. If I'd known how good it was going to be I'd have bought ours three years earlier rather than trying a couple of non-electric bikes for kid transport.

 

[biko]

* Literally "baker's bike" because Dutch bakers used them for deliveries.

I never heard about this explanation, I don't believe it's correct. It literally means container bike because of the container at the front.

It's also noticeable (from my experience) to me that the average speed of cycling in the UK is higher than that in the Netherlands

My experience is similar. Over here in the Netherlands, I am a relatively quick cyclist if you exclude e-bikes (I cycle around 18 km/h on average, maximum speed about 20 km/h steady). My few cycle trips in the London on a hire bike I was overtaken by all people not on hire bikes and overtaking the other hire bike users myself. It suggests to me that UK cyclists are quick, probably because British cyclists are not a good cross section of the population.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I never heard about this explanation, I don't believe it's correct. It literally means container bike because of the container at the front.

I sit corrected. Sure I heard this somewhere else though.

I wonder if there is any connection between the word bak and bakker at all?

My experience is similar. Over here in the Netherlands, I am a relatively quick cyclist if you exclude e-bikes (I cycle around 18 km/h on average, maximum speed about 20 km/h steady). My few cycle trips in the London on a hire bike I was overtaken by all people not on hire bikes and overtaking the other hire bike users myself. It suggests to me that UK cyclists are quick, probably because British cyclists are not a good cross section of the population.

The vast, vast majority of central London cyclists appear, in my experience, to be men in their 20s to 40s wearing cycle-specific clothing on expensive, fast road bikes who usually ride them in a fairly aggressive manner. This may well be because it was only this sort of person who would brave central London traffic before Dutch style (ish) segregation started to become available (alongside which you have started to see people on more Dutch style bikes, so it is changing - build it and they will come, as they say).

The vast majority of Milton Keynes cyclists, by contrast, are kids, teenagers and adults on typically cheap, often old mountain bikes as a mode of transport because they don't have a car, plus leisure cyclists on similar steeds out for a nice ride. This is because the Redways are safe and segregated but also quite unsuited to fast riding. Helmets are often not worn (unlike London where they mostly are), clothing tends to be less cycle-oriented, speeds are low and road bikes are rare to see, other than older people riding older ones they've had half their life. Perhaps a bit more, but not quite, Dutch style, but still a secondary choice to the car.

 

[zwk500]

It suggests to me that UK cyclists are quick, probably because British cyclists are not a good cross section of the population.

Interesting to hear from the other side of the view! (I'm only on a year out in the Netherlands, don't let my location tag fool you!). I think UK cyclists are quick for a number of reasons - part of it is that you have to be keener than the average person to cycle in the UK, part of it is that cycling had previously generally required you to make a decent speed or a car will do something dangerous to you, part of it is also that UK bikes generally have more gears (3x6/7/8 was quite common, but now 2x9/10 is also becoming popular, as opposed to the single, 3 or 7 gears dutch bikes have) so higher speeds are generally possible on the flat. Part of it is also cultural, the UK is generally a more hurried place than the Netherlands (although I confess my sample of both is very small).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Interesting to hear from the other side of the view! (I'm only on a year out in the Netherlands, don't let my location tag fool you!). I think UK cyclists are quick for a number of reasons - part of it is that you have to be keener than the average person to cycle in the UK, part of it is that cycling had previously generally required you to make a decent speed or a car will do something dangerous to you, part of it is also that UK bikes generally have more gears (3x6/7/8 was quite common, but now 2x9/10 is also becoming popular, as opposed to the single, 3 or 7 gears dutch bikes have) so higher speeds are generally possible on the flat. Part of it is also cultural, the UK is generally a more hurried place than the Netherlands (although I confess my sample of both is very small).

I've worked in NL and my experience is that London is much faster and more rough-and-tumble (as a whole it's a very aggressive and fast-paced place, even more so in my limited-ish experience than New York), but otherwise the pace of life is not dissimilar to the UK outside of the South East. Indeed I think the Netherlands and the Dutch are the most similar to the UK and British people out of all of the mainland Europeans (so maybe there's hope for Dutch style cycling here with the right infrastructure?), with the Germans probably being second. Most notably, and unlike a number of other EU countries, the Dutch are mostly house dwellers, and many Dutch suburban terraced streets almost look British, though the style is subtly different and the state of repair often better. (This of course says one key thing - that you don't need high density for good public transport and cycling provision, because the Netherlands is of similar density in urban areas to the UK).

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

I've worked in NL and my experience is that London is much faster and more rough-and-tumble (as a whole it's a very aggressive and fast-paced place, even more so in my limited-ish experience than New York), but otherwise the pace of life is not dissimilar to the UK outside of the South East. Indeed I think the Netherlands and the Dutch are the most similar to the UK and British people out of all of the mainland Europeans (so maybe there's hope for Dutch style cycling here with the right infrastructure?), with the Germans probably being second. Most notably, and unlike a number of other EU countries, the Dutch are mostly house dwellers, and many Dutch suburban terraced streets almost look British, though the style is subtly different and the state of repair often better. (This of course says one key thing - that you don't need high density for good public transport and cycling provision, because the Netherlands is of similar density in urban areas to the UK).

While most people here readily associate the Netherlands with mass cycling much of the necessary infrastructure was only developed from the 1960s onwards especially in some of the larger cities. It required considerable political will to convert those narrow terraced streets to one-way motorised traffic along with parking restrictions in order to provide room for cycle lanes. We are seeing similar measures here now with various traffic reduction measures in urban residential areas but these don't always include specific cycle provision. Another difference is the expectation here that street running public transport will have stops relatively close together compared to what is normal on the Continent. There is much talk of active transport but the big issue is persuading people that it's ok to walk very much more than most do presently.

 

[biko]

Interesting to hear from the other side of the view! (I'm only on a year out in the Netherlands, don't let my location tag fool you!).

I already got that impression reading your posts in other threads

I think UK cyclists are quick for a number of reasons - part of it is that you have to be keener than the average person to cycle in the UK, part of it is that cycling had previously generally required you to make a decent speed or a car will do something dangerous to you, part of it is also that UK bikes generally have more gears (3x6/7/8 was quite common, but now 2x9/10 is also becoming popular, as opposed to the single, 3 or 7 gears dutch bikes have) so higher speeds are generally possible on the flat.

This certainly sounds like a plausible explanation.

Part of it is also cultural, the UK is generally a more hurried place than the Netherlands (although I confess my sample of both is very small).

I don’t recognise this. If I visit the UK outside London, it feels quite similar to me. London is just very different in general, but also over here, Amsterdam is very different in many respects to the rest of the country.

Indeed I think the Netherlands and the Dutch are the most similar to the UK and British people out of all of the mainland Europeans (so maybe there's hope for Dutch style cycling here with the right infrastructure?), with the Germans probably being second. Most notably, and unlike a number of other EU countries, the Dutch are mostly house dwellers, and many Dutch suburban terraced streets almost look British, though the style is subtly different and the state of repair often better.

Yes, I agree with the most of this. Urban planning is sometimes very different though.

While most people here readily associate the Netherlands with mass cycling much of the necessary infrastructure was only developed from the 1960s onwards especially in some of the larger cities. It required considerable political will to convert those narrow terraced streets to one-way motorised traffic along with parking restrictions in order to provide room for cycle lanes.

Actually, I cannot think of many narrow roads which are one-way with cycling facilities. As far as I understand and still see outside, since the 1960s facilities have been mainly built along the major existing roads. Next to that, new neighbourhoods (especially from the 1980s onwards) have been built with the cyclist in mind, so designed around safe and easy cycle opportunities. Cars have separate infrastructure or at least a specific routing which means diverting them from the main flow of cyclists.

During the last 10-15 years, more and more local authorities are also creating concepts like cycling streets, which are narrowed roads with red paving. And low traffic neighbourhoods are commonplace because of the already planned structure of the road networks. And any new measures are certainly not controversial.

 

[Harpers Tate]

It's a Rohloff Speedhub, their website is quite interesting of you like that kind of thing!

Yeah, just found it, quite extraordinarily expensive for a bicycle component! Heading into the price of a car gearbox (though not quite)...

Cheaper alternative https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/product/component/alfine-s7000s700/SG-S7001-11.html
I have one on my pedal bike. The ratios are spread well enough and evenly enough* to be entirely practical. About 1/4 the cost of a Rohloff; virtually maintenance free and as with any fixed or gearbox transmission (so, not derailleur) can be used with a belt drive rather than a chain for even less maintenance, less dirt (grease) and greater longevity. And the option to change gear whilst stationary (which can be a boon on occasion). I wouldn't voluntarily go back to using derailleurs.

* 1st gear ("crawler gear") has a greater gap to 2nd than the spread of the rest. Exactly where it's most needed IMO.

 

[Magdalia]

I don't have experience of cycling in the Netherlands, but I do have lots of experience of cycling in Cambridge, the UK city that probably comes nearest to cycling Netherlands style, though without much in the way of Netherlands style infrastructure.

I grew up in Cambridge half a century ago. Most locals learned to cycle as children and most people had bicycles with one gear which was forwards. A Sturmey Archer 3 speed hub gear was luxury and only serious cyclists had derailleur gears. "Granny" bikes were common, ridden by both real grannies (including my mother) and very popular with students. In those days a key feature of the granny bike was a wicker basket attached to the handlebar by two leather straps.

Half a century later Cambridge still has lots and lots of utility cyclists, including me. There are a few lycra clad "urban warriors" but most are people just going about their daily lives in their normal apparel, though with better wet weather clothes now. Last winter I got a big Barbour puffa coat in the sales which has been brilliant for utility cycling.

The big change for me was 3 years ago when I got an e-bike. It is one of the best things I've ever done. I have a Gazelle (which is Dutch) but the electrical bits are Bosch (German). It was a bit over £2k for the bike, but there were some expensive accessories too. I have Ortlieb panniers (also German), which are very popular in Cambridge, and a spider lock which is as secure as a D-lock but much less cumbersome. Having started cycling as a child, getting the e-bike was the point where I decided it was time to wear a helmet. I don't think I've ever worked up a sweat on the e-bike or felt that I needed to shower at the end of any journey.

For me, and lots of Cambridge utility cyclists, the biggest practical concern is security. Theft is a huge problem, and not given priority by the police. I'm very careful where I leave my e-bike. Personal security is an issue too, and this will become more important if and when the greenway network is developed. I rarely cycle in the dark though that's difficult to avoid in winter for anyone wanting to cycle to and rom work.

 

[Meerkat]

I used to live in Wolverton and cycle to work every day, however it wouldn't have been possible without shower facilities at my work - which is another part of cycle infrastructure. The true Dutch style of just jumping on your bike in a shirt and slacks isn't feasible in the UK, I will happily admit.

I think this is a major problem for the cycling lobby - they actually put people off cycling by what they demand.
When even the cycling lobby are saying its dangerous the ordinary non-cyclist is not going to be very tempted
And because the keen cyclists wear lycra and ride fast they demand showers at work, which puts normals off. A previous boss drove a couple of miles to work and when asked why he didnt get a bike he said he didn't want to have to have a shower at work (worried about doing his hair twice!).
I tried to point out that you only need a shower if you ride equivalent to jogging to work rather than riding equivalent to walking to work - no one demands a shower because they walked to work.
The Dutch just seem to have a better attitude - no helmets, normal clothes, and able to merge pedestrians and cyclists without so much conflict. They also dont seem to be so H&S mental about things - not sure the plod here would tolerate passengers side saddle on rear racks. On holiday my sister and I, on hired granny bikes, were flagged down by a couple of locals to give them a lift back to the holiday park!

 

[zwk500]

I think this is a major problem for the cycling lobby - they actually put people off cycling by what they demand.
When even the cycling lobby are saying its dangerous the ordinary non-cyclist is not going to be very tempted
And because the keen cyclists wear lycra and ride fast they demand showers at work, which puts normals off. A previous boss drove a couple of miles to work and when asked why he didnt get a bike he said he didn't want to have to have a shower at work (worried about doing his hair twice!).

I don't see why having showers available would put people off who don't want to shower, but we do need to make much more cycle-friendly infrastructure so that people aren't as worried about slowing traffic doing something lethal.
FWIW I doubt my cycle (3.5miles-ish) could have been done without getting a sweat up more than about 1/3rd the time - I did do it on occasion in work clothes but then again I do tend to get a sweat on very quickly (I'm hairier than normal and playing sports where I only do intense bursts of energy rather than long continuous effort probably doesn't help).

The Dutch just seem to have a better attitude - no helmets, normal clothes, and able to merge pedestrians and cyclists without so much conflict. They also dont seem to be so H&S mental about things - not sure the plod here would tolerate passengers side saddle on rear racks. On holiday my sister and I, on hired granny bikes, were flagged down by a couple of locals to give them a lift back to the holiday park!

This does certainly seem to tally with my experience. It's not that H&S isn't present - it very much is - but there's a much more 'common sense' element to it. Passengers side saddle on rear racks is one of the safer moves I've seen! The riding straddle over the front wheel facing backwards is perhaps the most impressive feat for the person actually pedalling to carry.

 

[Magdalia]

The Dutch just seem to have a better attitude - no helmets, normal clothes, and able to merge pedestrians and cyclists without so much conflict.

I have been cycling in Cambridge today. On my travels I probably saw well over 100 other cyclists. The number wearing lycra could be counted on one hand: nearly everyone, like me, was wearing normal clothes. And helmets were somewhere less than half.

Passengers side saddle on rear racks is one of the safer moves I've seen! The riding straddle over the front wheel facing backwards

But I definitely did not see any of those!

 

[Meerkat]

I don't see why having showers available would put people off who don't want to shower, but we do need to make much more cycle-friendly infrastructure so that people aren't as

Its the demand for showers, and then the "we have showers so you can cycle" that is the issue - non-cyclists infer that cycling to work must require a shower, with the implication that if you ride to work and don't shower you must be a bit skanky.

FWIW I doubt my cycle (3.5miles-ish) could have been done without getting a sweat up more than about 1/3rd the time

Is it hilly or do you go too fast? Cycling is more efficient than walking, and back in the day everyone rode bikes and no one had a shower.
My grandfather, in his 20's, couldn't afford the train fare to go to his uncle's funeral so he got out his fix wheel utility bike and rode there......from Southampton to Liverpool!
And he went round through Wales as he wanted to avoid the Midlands.....

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is it hilly or do you go too fast? Cycling is more efficient than walking, and back in the day everyone rode bikes and no one had a shower.
My grandfather, in his 20's, couldn't afford the train fare to go to his uncle's funeral so he got out his fix wheel utility bike and rode there......from Southampton to Liverpool!
And he went round through Wales as he wanted to avoid the Midlands.....

I don't think it's overly helpful to the case of cycling to be quoting superfit young people who could do that (noting that with most jobs much more physical than now, more people were superfit then than now).

I've run ultramarathons and such but I'd struggle with cycling 300 miles unless it was split over a couple of weeks. And I bet he was sweaty when he got there! (But again that was more accepted then than now - nowadays a daily shower is pretty much an expectation, even back when I was a kid that wasn't normal, a bath every few days would be more common).

 

[zwk500]

Its the demand for showers, and then the "we have showers so you can cycle" that is the issue - non-cyclists infer that cycling to work must require a shower, with the implication that if you ride to work and don't shower you must be a bit skanky.

Hmm, maybe. But that's a mindset thing, which you can change to 'My cycle is fine, I don't need to shower.' and stop other people being pretentious about it.

Is it hilly or do you go too fast? Cycling is more efficient than walking, and back in the day everyone rode bikes and no one had a shower.

I wouldn't call it hilly, although there were a couple of places where it was a bit of a sustained climb. I don't doubt I could have avoided sweating if I'd gone slower - but the attraction of cycling was that because I knew there was a shower at work, I could afford to go at a good pace and then shower off when I got there. In the first house where I lived in MK, my ride in the morning was only downhill and about 1 mile long, so I did it in work gear because I never broke sweat. As I mentioned, I have a couple of physiological features that do cause me to break into a sweat pretty easily, so rather than having to hold myself back and risk being smelly in the office I was happy to just power through and shower at the end.
In contrast my dad cycles nearly the same distance to his local station, but it's almost entirely downhill in the morning so he does it in work clothes. Coming back he can get as sweaty as he likes up the hill because he can shower and change as soon as he gets in.

My grandfather, in his 20's, couldn't afford the train fare to go to his uncle's funeral so he got out his fix wheel utility bike and rode there......from Southampton to Liverpool!
And he went round through Wales as he wanted to avoid the Midlands.....

My great-uncle in the war (would have been early twenties as well) used to cycle from Chesterfield to London and back every 2 weeks or so. He was always a bit mad though, led walks in the Peak District into his 90s.

 

[Meerkat]

I don't think it's overly helpful to the case of cycling to be quoting superfit young people who could do that (noting that with most jobs much more physical than now, more people were superfit then than now).

I've run ultramarathons and such but I'd struggle with cycling 300 miles unless it was split over a couple of weeks. And I bet he was sweaty when he got there! (But again that was more accepted then than now - nowadays a daily shower is pretty much an expectation, even back when I was a kid that wasn't normal, a bath every few days would be more common).

Oh, that was a random ‘good old days’ anecdote rather than an example. He was an OS surveyor and never drove (though I think he had some sort of licence from WW2 service in the RE (maps bit) so train/bike everywhere (moaning about tram tracks) and walking up mountains!
If I was using him as an example I would have said how he had a full English every morning and lived to 90 odd
If we are to convince people to utility cycle they need to play down the Lycra image and promote jumping on a bike, ordinary clothes, no helmet, and carrying on as though you had walked. But it means cracking the security issue, and building homes with cycle rooms or cycle garages.
The best way to make it safer is simply to get more people cycling

 

[zwk500]

If we are to convince people to utility cycle they need to play down the Lycra image and promote jumping on a bike, ordinary clothes, no helmet, and carrying on as though you had walked. But it means cracking the security issue, and building homes with cycle rooms or cycle garages.
The best way to make it safer is simply to get more people cycling

Nail. on. the. head.