TfL proposes to withdraw Day Travelcards

[nickswift99]

Going to London for one specific thing and not requiring any use of public transportation as an entire family is such a niche example I'm happy it has been ignored.

Niche? Family visits to the theatre, a specific museum or sporting event are, in my experience, the most common reasons for families to travel into London as a destination.

This is the Mayor discouraging families spending money in London. Excellent news for regional cities who I'm sure will welcome these domestic tourists

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Go and stand on the London platforms at Reading at the start of the summer school holidays. It's packed with families visiting attractions in London. Those who don't hold a family railcard will all pretty much be on Family Travelcards.

Why should London taxpayers subsidise this?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Apr 2023 ==

Niche? Family visits to the theatre, a specific museum or sporting event are, in my experience, the most common reasons for families to travel into London as a destination.

And they all go for that one thing and nothing else? Again, why should London taxpayers subsidise this?

 

[Starmill]

I'd be asking questions about why yours is so high then. MK's is one of the lowest in the country. I'd be quite angry were it at the levels you see in the metropolitan areas, because the services we get are vastly poorer than those areas.

Because council tax rating and hypothecation is fundamentally a broken system, and the link you're making doesn't exist in reality? Some London boroughs deliberately charge next to nothing in council tax. Some Welsh authorities charge the highest rates in Great Britain, because providing the same services there costs significantly more.

City taxes or charges levied on overnight accommodation are far more effective than the mess of council tax ever could be.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why should London taxpayers subsidise this?

People come to London and spend money, which puts money into its economy and results in the payment of more corporation tax among other things.

Also, TfL receives a fair whack of money from national Government.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

People come to London and spend money, which puts money into its economy and results in the payment of more corporation tax among other things.

Do families spend enough towards TfL to offset the reduced fares?

 

[SouthEastBuses]

City taxes or charges levied on overnight accommodation arw far more effective than the mess of council tax ever could be.

Off topic question but does London have a city tax on overnight accommodation, just out of interest? If yes how much is it?

 

[Starmill]

Off topic question but does London have a city tax on overnight accommodation, just out of interest? If yes how much is it?

No.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

No.

Hmm, I'm surprised, I thought every European city did. Anyway, this is a discussion for another thread

 

[nickswift99]

Do families spend enough towards TfL to offset the reduced fares?

It's not about spending on TfL but their overall spend in London.

A family of 4 going to a performance in the West End will probably spend somewhere between £150 and £200 on tickets. They'll probably have something to eat either before or after the matinee performance (£25 in McDonalds at London prices, or £100 in a family friendly restaurant). They might walk up Regent Street and buy something in the shops. They may spend a fortune on interval drinks and an ice cream.

They could do this in Bristol or Birmingham and never visit London at all.

The differential cost to TfL is almost nothing. Families are using excess capacity on public transport which is currently designed for peak weekday commutes.

 

[PZ 08895]

I have noticed that in my situation (Horsham to London Z1-6), tickets will be expensive without the Travelcard as well, as it means having to first buy a £17.60 Off Peak Day Return to London Terminals, then add about a roughly £14.90 Z1-6 daily cap. This makes my travel far more expensive because with an Off Peak Z1-6 Travelcard, I would only pay £19!

From Horsham with a Network Card, off peak at least the London Z1-6 Travelcard at £16.80 is actually cheaper than an off-peak day return to London Bridge/ Cannon Street, City Thameslink / Charing Cross at £17.60 (though Victoria is cheaper). Seems mad that travel to London + unlimited travel within Zone 1 to 6 is cheaper than just the out and back journey to the London Terminal. Of course for journeys between London Bridge and St Pancras, an off peak day return to Kentish Town (and alight early) at £16.15 is cheaper still.

 

[Bletchleyite]

From Horsham with a Network Card, off peak at least the London Z1-6 Travelcard at £16.80 is actually cheaper than an off-peak day return to London Bridge/ Cannon Street, City Thameslink / Charing Cross at £17.60 (though Victoria is cheaper). Seems mad that travel to London + unlimited travel within Zone 1 to 6 is cheaper than just the out and back journey to the London Terminal. Of course for journeys between London Bridge and St Pancras, an off peak day return to Kentish Town (and alight early) at £16.15 is cheaper still.

They do vary. On the WCML the difference is quite a bit larger (but not quite the price of a Travelcard).

 

[SouthEastBuses]

From Horsham with a Network Card, off peak at least the London Z1-6 Travelcard at £16.80 is actually cheaper than an off-peak day return to London Bridge/ Cannon Street, City Thameslink / Charing Cross at £17.60 (though Victoria is cheaper). Seems mad that travel to London + unlimited travel within Zone 1 to 6 is cheaper than just the out and back journey to the London Terminal. Of course for journeys between London Bridge and St Pancras, an off peak day return to Kentish Town (and alight early) at £16.15 is cheaper still.

The price in question that you're quoting is a Super Off Peak Z1-6 travelcard, which has morning and evening restrictions on Monday to Fridays. Even the Off Peak Z1-6 travelcard (no evening restrictions but not valid on Gatwick Express) only costs about £19!

For the rest, I fully agree with you and this is why both myself, @JonathanH and plenty of others are opposed to abolishing Z1-6 Day Travelcards.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

It's not about spending on TfL but their overall spend in London.

Then give TfL an actual subsidy that reflects their impact on the UK economy rather than enforcing severe managed decline that impacts both revenue and tax intakes!

 

[PZ 08895]

I didn't realise they had an evening peak restriction, so good to know, thanks. I have been purchasing the ticket quite a bit recently but travelling to London late afternoon and returning to Horsham late evening, so the restrictions fortunately did not apply. Most of the time I've not even being using TfL services - just using the Z1-6 Travelcard to get to Cannon St.

 

[Snow1964]

Does it affect journeys by Thameslink or Elizabeth line.

Or would it still allow someone from say Dorking to get to Kings Cross using a London Terminals ticket, and walk instead.

Of course if London terminals was opened up fully (reclassified) could someone from say Berkshire use Liverpool St via Elizabeth line. Then walk from there instead

Seems that some journeys might be walkable from a London Terminal rather than pay extra for a contactless zone 1 ticket. Be interesting to see how it affects some passengers.

 

[JonathanH]

Or would it still allow someone from say Dorking to get to Kings Cross using a London Terminals ticket, and walk instead.

Not sure what you are getting at. A 'London Thameslink' ticket (or cross London ticket to a station in North London) is needed for travel to St Pancras from Dorking.

If the Travelcard is withdrawn, it is withdrawn. There isn't a proposal for an 'NR only' version to remain.

Of course if London terminals was opened up fully (reclassified) could someone from say Berkshire use Liverpool St via Elizabeth line. Then walk from there instead

That isn't likely to happen. That would be too much of a revenue cut.

Project Oval may change some of the considerations, but it is noticeable that on some routes from outside London, the through fare to Zone 1 stations served by TfL is the Origin to Terminal fare plus a full Zone 1 TfL fare.

 

[telstarbox]

Although that's already the case - lots of people walk from Charing Cross to the theatre and lots of sockless Essex geezers go "out out" on Bishopsgate from Liverpool Street.

 

[MikeWM]

Also, while admittedly a bit niche, there's a whole collection of boundary zone options that a travelcard is the cheapest way to do.

Ely to Reading or Southend are two journeys I make fairly often, and the cheapest (straightforward) way to do those at weekends is via a travelcard and a BZ6 extension.

Quite a shame to lose that flexibility and value.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I didn't realise they had an evening peak restriction, so good to know, thanks. I have been purchasing the ticket quite a bit recently but travelling to London late afternoon and returning to Horsham late evening, so the restrictions fortunately did not apply. Most of the time I've not even being using TfL services - just using the Z1-6 Travelcard to get to Cannon St.

Travelcards do not have an evening peak restriction. In the case of an outboundary Travelcard the outside-zone-6 part may have and indeed often does, but travel within London is not restricted in the evening.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

By way of comparison, Paris has a Day Travelcard (Paris Visite), but it is only available within the RATP area (5 zones).
There is no equivalent to GB's integrated rail-plus-TfL London travelcard available from a very wide area (eg the WMT Travelcard fares from Crewe).
Public ownership doesn't necessarily mean integrated transport.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

I didn't realise they had an evening peak restriction, so good to know, thanks. I have been purchasing the ticket quite a bit recently but travelling to London late afternoon and returning to Horsham late evening, so the restrictions fortunately did not apply. Most of the time I've not even being using TfL services - just using the Z1-6 Travelcard to get to Cannon St.

The evening peak restriction only affects if you want to go back to Horsham - as @Bletchleyite correctly pointed out it's still valid for use within London.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Apr 2023 ==

Also @JonathanH would I be right in thinking that Project Oval is basically introducing a South East England equivalent of the Netherlands' OV-Chipkaart?

 

[Hadders]

Sadly I am not surprised by this proposal. I am away at the monent and so not able to reply fully but these are my initial thoughts:

- The withdrawal of a fully integrated, very popular ticket is a massive backwards step whatever the politics involved and discourages tourism
- It makes ticketing more complex when everyone says ticketing should be simplified
- I can understand the desire to withdraw paper tickets but why can't they remain on smartcards?
- For many passengers this will be a massive price increase via the back door (I suspect some people will end up paying double the current price)
- Project Oval might offer some consolation via daily capping (but not for super off peak pricing) but this won't be available for Network Railcard holders
- Family Railcard holders will feel particularly aggrieved

I would encourage everyone to reply to the consultation and also to write to your MP about it.
-

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Sadly I am not surprised by this proposal. I am away at the monent and so not able to reply fully but these are my initial thoughts:

- The withdrawal of a fully integrated, very popular ticket is a massive backwards step whatever the politics involved and discourages tourism
- It makes ticketing more complex when everyone says ticketing should be simplified
- I can understand the desire to withdraw paper tickets but why can't they remain on smartcards?
- For many passengers this will be a massive price increase via the back door (I suspect some people will end up paying double the current price)
- Project Oval might offer some consolation via daily capping (but not for super off peak pricing) but this won't be available for Network Railcard holders
- Family Railcard holders will feel particularly aggrieved

I would encourage everyone to reply to the consultation and also to write to your MP about it.
-

And tbh, neither am I. The reasons that you have pointed out right now is why I'm completely opposed to all of this. And, put it simply, I fully agree with everything that you have said!

Also, wherever you are, enjoy your time there!

 

[Western Sunset]

The Day Travelcard was good while it lasted...

I enjoyed its convenience, flexibility, ease of use (no messing around trying to remember to tap yellow/pink validators), the reassurance of having a physical ticket in my pocket, not worrying about max journey times, etc, etc.

I've said my 2p worth on their "consultation", but even with that, I had to register first to make my comment.

RIP Travelcard.

 

[12LDA28C]

Constant attempt to increase fares (both directly and indirectly) and only caring about money and revenue. No wonder so many people say that this is Rip off Britain

Bit of a generalisation there. Conversely the DfT don't give a toss about revenue, they just want to cut costs.

 

[JonathanH]

The Day Travelcard was good while it lasted...

Absolutely.

The way I see it with all good value and convenient fares is to make the most of them while they last, always having in the back of your mind that they will be abolished at some point, or be subject to a stealth fare rise. It is just how it is.

Ultimately, the objective of decision makers in any kind of commercial decision is to maximise revenue while reducing costs. This is a fundamental change but will have been identified as bringing in more revenue from higher fares than the number of users it will put off.

 

[Hadders]

If enough people complain, and enough MPs and media can be persuaded to get involved, then it might be possible for Day Travelcards to be retained.

Often ticketing issues are too complex for MPs and the medial to understand but this one is actually very simple. Anyone who is anyone in the south east knows what a Travelcard is.

 

[XAM2175]

- I can understand the desire to withdraw paper tickets but why can't they remain on smartcards?

This had been my original thought, but as others have already noted, there are a number of other LU-valid mag-stripe tickets that appear to be sticking around for some time yet - thus it seems most likely that TfL would still have issues with the Day Travelcard even if it were ported to smartcard only.

 

[GodAtum]

Surely this is discriminatory if disabled people cant use their railcard?

 

[nickswift99]

For families the solution is to find a way to issue Zip cards or similar at little/no cost. The marginal increase with capping would then probably not be too much of a deterrent.