TV Alert - Dispatches on Channel 4 ''Train Journeys from Hell"

[Anon Mouse]

Back to 'Traintracker', I've just tried it. I asked for Heworth and it asked, is that Shawford Surrey? My Wife asked for Heworth and she was asked is that Kew Gardens? Its good for a giggle, but seriously it shows the flaws in the system :cry:

I must add I never watched the show, but when I see it I am sure it will be as predictable as I thought. How had can it be, for example to remember that you need to carry your railcard, that you must travel on the booked service etc?

Anyway must sleep, got some serious gripping to do tomorow!

 

[shinkansen1966]

Any chance you might want to tell us how to improve them.

There are some quick fix solutions:

• One web site selling all tickets. No TOCs only web sites and no TOC only discounts,
• Either all fares regulated or no fares regulated. Preferably all regulated,
• Base line anytime fare from which advanced fares have a standard discount: eg 50% if bought 15 days ahead (subject to availability). That kind of thing,
• Standard national restriction for peak and off peak fares: eg off peak after 09:30, no exceptions.

 

[Anon Mouse]

NRES Call Centre in the UK staffed by local and knowledgeable staff for starters........

 

[yorksrob]

There are some quick fix solutions:

• One web site selling all tickets. No TOCs only web sites and no TOC only discounts,
• Either all fares regulated or no fares regulated. Preferably all regulated,
• Base line anytime fare from which advanced fares have a standard discount: eg 50% if bought 15 days ahead (subject to availability). That kind of thing,
• Standard national restriction for peak and off peak fares: eg off peak after 09:30, no exceptions.

That sounds far too sensible

 

[Minilad]

That sounds far too sensible

But in all honesty probably unworkable

 

[CliveJones]

NRES Call Centre in the UK staffed by local and knowledgeable staff for starters........

I absolutely despise NRES.

Customer: "I want to buy a ticket to X"
Me: "Thats X amount"
Customer: "But I phoned national rail inquires and they said......."
Me "FUUUUUUU...."

Made up prices and made up train times. I think they just roll dice sometimes for a laugh.

 

[yorksrob]

But in all honesty probably unworkable

3 might be difficult, but 2 and 4 should have been in place years ago quite frankly.

 

[Minilad]

3 might be difficult, but 2 and 4 should have been in place years ago quite frankly.

1. Not gonna happen
2. All regulated. No brainer
3. Good idea for simplicity. But the railway system isn't simple and I can't see the TOCs letting someone else decided how much their own cheap tickets should cost
4. Unworkable really as each route / area has differing conditions / times where on / off peak tickets would work

All the above is my opinion of course

 

[142094]

I wondered where this thread had gone. How come when threads are moved now, there is no mark left in the orginal section?

 

[yorksrob]

1. Not gonna happen
2. All regulated. No brainer
3. Good idea for simplicity. But the railway system isn't simple and I can't see the TOCs letting someone else decided how much their own cheap tickets should cost
4. Unworkable really as each route / area has differing conditions / times where on / off peak tickets would work

All the above is my opinion of course

With regards to 4 you may need slightly different rules for Inter City as opposed to shorter commuter routes for example, but I seem to remember from my distant youth that there was something about not leaving London until after 9:30 (or was it 10?) for off-peak. Seemed straight forward enough to me (but then I have drank a lot of beer since then so the mind may play tricks )

 

[WatcherZero]

Some major issues with sensationalism and not knowing how to use a voice recognition system (Heres a tip, say only what it asks for dont confuse it with pleasentries and banter!) saying 'Eh?' its nots surpising it thinks you said 'Avon'.

Glad it wasnt a we need to nationalise again now rant despite Wolmar appearance and it carried the old BR adage that 'it would be a great railway if not for the passenger'. Addressed the major concerns of crowding and southern bias.

 

[Mojo]

The problem is it's not as sensible as it may sound.

- Why should people not benefit from X Toc only tickets? People cope with brand choice in every day life. Why should I pay more for my journey when I'm happy to put up with a slower journey/worse train/etc?
- A common off-peak restriction; how would that work? Some people would be worse off than at present if you were to introduce a common peak restriction. Why should someone on a rural line also be subject to such a restriction when the train probably isn't that busy?
- Failure to take into account the reason for Advance fares. If the railway is to get to grips with its abysmal average loadings then getting people onto those less-busy trains is vital

 

[shinkansen1966]

I can't see the TOCs letting someone else decided how much their own cheap tickets should cost

Then take this responsibility away from TOCs. Instead using the TfL funding method. Revenue collection becomes responsibility of DfT. TOCs just run the trains and get money from DfT for running costs. ATOC then become redundant as does the multiplicity of web sites.

 

[tbtc]

The problem is it's not as sensible as it may sound.

- Why should people not benefit from X Toc only tickets? People cope with brand choice in every day life. Why should I pay more for my journey when I'm happy to put up with a slower journey/worse train/etc?
- A common off-peak restriction; how would that work? Some people would be worse off than at present if you were to introduce a common peak restriction. Why should someone on a rural line also be subject to such a restriction when the train probably isn't that busy?
- Failure to take into account the reason for Advance fares. If the railway is to get to grips with its abysmal average loadings then getting people onto those less-busy trains is vital

True.

Each line has its own problems, its own peak flows and its own demand.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I wondered where this thread had gone. How come when threads are moved now, there is no mark left in the orginal section?

Agreed, I searched for the old thread when it was moved, found out it was in a new section (and merged inside an older thread), but no notice...

(doesn't take much to confuse me, mind)

 

[Greenback]

Well, I watched the programme on C4+1, and I must admit it wasn't quite as bad as I feared!

I think it made some good points about the fares system without going into so much depth that the average viewer would switch off! There was a predictable focus on London, but as so much travel is to and from the capital, then that is hardly surprising really.

 

[tbtc]

Glad someone's just been making the point warning against cuts to the Regional Railway network. This is something which worries me greatly.

This is the thing - there are some genuine problems on the railways, some lines which aren't guaranteed a future, some long term structural issues that really need addressing. And taking cheap shots like "call centre operators think Kyle of Lochalsh sounds like Manchester" isn't going to help that (however quick a headline it might make).

Do we want a serious debate about the future of the railways, or do we want a "curly sandwiches and disgusting toilets" copy/paste television show?

 

[Minilad]

Then take this responsibility away from TOCs. Instead using the TfL funding method. Revenue collection becomes responsibility of DfT. TOCs just run the trains and get money from DfT for running costs. ATOC then become redundant as does the multiplicity of web sites.

I thought you said this was a quick fix !!

 

[Class 33]

Haven't read through all this thread yet as it will be a spoiler as I haven't watched the programme yet. Just went to settle down and watch it on the 4od Player, but dissapointed that it's not available to view yet!

 

[Blindtraveler]

well nothing we didnt already know! Not a fan of that show anywy and the only purpose tonite has served is finally pointing out NRE's failings. Traintracker is guff and the alternative is someone on the other side of the world who knows nothing about trains! I'm not raceist but every callcentre based in india should be shut down. Its a sad day when i have to spell edinburgh, twice when talking to someone who is supposed to help me plan my journey. Aggreed, they are useless and give rong info! There website and mobile apps etc though are great. This is no cumfort though to people who are unable to use online services and have to endure 2nd rate service.

 

[Class 33]

Oh hang on, it is now available to watch. Settling down to watch it now. Should be interesting!

 

[mumrar]

Just finished work so haven't seen the problems, but I believe whilst there is no fix all, there is certainly plenty of solutions to cut through the waffle for a high proportion of journeys.

TOC only tickets should remain for reasons outlined, people have coped with planes for decades like this, and it's not alien to bus travel either.

Ticket types need to be chopped down and simplified for the sake of us staff as well as customers!

So I'd propose 2 tiers of Advance tickets.
Off Peak and Anytime Day tickets
Off Peak and Anytime period tickets which are 1.7x the day ticket equivalent.
First Class fares calculated to 1.6x their standard class equivalent.
7 day seasons priced as 5xAnytime day returns
14 day priced as 9xAnytime day returns
28 day priced as 17xAnytime day returns

But, priority is to remove rubbish such as below:

No first class fares 3x or more the standard equivalent.
My company (XC) are guilty of selling Off peak period returns but no Anytime equivalent on a lot of journeys, it's ridiculous and needs to go.

All TOC restrictions should be listed under the route. Peak and Off-peak times are the same whether travelling in Ayrshire or the hell-hole of London, just change the prices as necessarry to get similar revenue using the formulae above.

It's not a cover all, but we need to cut through a lot of the rubbish that exists and feeds this media led paranoia.

 

[yorksrob]

This is the thing - there are some genuine problems on the railways, some lines which aren't guaranteed a future, some long term structural issues that really need addressing. And taking cheap shots like "call centre operators think Kyle of Lochalsh sounds like Manchester" isn't going to help that (however quick a headline it might make).

Do we want a serious debate about the future of the railways, or do we want a "curly sandwiches and disgusting toilets" copy/paste television show?

Indeed, and I would certainly agree that the programme had it's cheap shots.

But it did raise some important issues at the same time.

The problem is it's not as sensible as it may sound.

- Why should people not benefit from X Toc only tickets? People cope with brand choice in every day life. Why should I pay more for my journey when I'm happy to put up with a slower journey/worse train/etc?
- A common off-peak restriction; how would that work? Some people would be worse off than at present if you were to introduce a common peak restriction. Why should someone on a rural line also be subject to such a restriction when the train probably isn't that busy?
- Failure to take into account the reason for Advance fares. If the railway is to get to grips with its abysmal average loadings then getting people onto those less-busy trains is vital

Well, to an extent.

Generally people will want to get to work before 9:00, so whilst trains that serve more than one major centre of work might need some special provision, I see no justification for having different peak times on different routes out of London, for example.

And Shinsanken1966’s proposal does still allow for TOC’s to sell cheaper advance fares to get people onto less busy trains, albeit in a more controlled way to stop walk on fares getting out of hand.

With regard to the average loadings problem, I find the quieter trains tend to be those on middle distance journeys, I.e those where there aren’t any advanced fares at all rather than Inter-City. If they could find a mechanism to get people onto these at less busy times it really would improve the prospects of the network. National railcard anyone ?

 

[LE Greys]

Just finished work so haven't seen the problems, but I believe whilst there is no fix all, there is certainly plenty of solutions to cut through the waffle for a high proportion of journeys.

TOC only tickets should remain for reasons outlined, people have coped with planes for decades like this, and it's not alien to bus travel either.

Ticket types need to be chopped down and simplified for the sake of us staff as well as customers!

So I'd propose 2 tiers of Advance tickets.
Off Peak and Anytime Day tickets
Off Peak and Anytime period tickets which are 1.7x the day ticket equivalent.
First Class fares calculated to 1.6x their standard class equivalent.
7 day seasons priced as 5xAnytime day returns
14 day priced as 9xAnytime day returns
28 day priced as 17xAnytime day returns

But, priority is to remove rubbish such as below:

No first class fares 3x or more the standard equivalent.
My company (XC) are guilty of selling Off peak period returns but no Anytime equivalent on a lot of journeys, it's ridiculous and needs to go.

All TOC restrictions should be listed under the route. Peak and Off-peak times are the same whether travelling in Ayrshire or the hell-hole of London, just change the prices as necessarry to get similar revenue using the formulae above.

It's not a cover all, but we need to cut through a lot of the rubbish that exists and feeds this media led paranoia.

So would you allow day tickets for massively long journeys, or would people doing long day returns still have to split tickets? It's more complicated than it looks.

The tickets I used most under the old BR system were
Cheap Day Returns
Off-Peak Travelcards
Supersavers
Network Awaybreaks
Peak Travelcards
Advance-booking

In that order. I haven't done any research, but I'd imagine that all of them got a lot of use. Having a two-tier saver/supersaver system helped spread demand and vastly reduced the need to split in various places. The Awaybreak just happened to be quite convenient.

I like most of your ideas, just I happen to think that BR restrictions and BR structures worked very well, so I'd modify it a bit.

So I'd propose

• 2 tiers of Advance tickets.
• Off Peak and Anytime Day tickets
• Off Peak and Anytime period tickets which are 1.7x the day ticket equivalent.
• Super Off Peak period tickets which are 1x the OPDR equivalent, but not available on Friday and during the peak shoulders - to avoid the need to split tickets, especially for long-distance weekend pax - such as cranks.
• First Class fares calculated to 1.6x their standard class equivalent - might ignore the third, 1st supersaver sounds a bit silly.
• TOCs would be free to include limited promotional offers, Rovers, Weekend First and an Awaybreak equivalent being possible examples, provided they don't do loads of them.
• 7 day seasons priced as 5xAnytime day returns
• 14 day priced as 9xAnytime day returns
• 28 day priced as 17xAnytime day returns

I like the last three, they seem very fair for regular passengers. This would also be part of a ten-year fare freeze, to allow inflation to catch up, and regulation of all fares, not just currently regulated ones, so that off-peak travellers don't get squeezed. Fare restrictions would be returned to as near as possible what BR did in the 1990s, so no restriction for return portions of off-peak tickets during the peaks for instance. It's pointless to have London day-trippers sitting around for hours while all the commuters go home.

 

[mumrar]

To clarify what you asked, I'd allow day tickets for journeys up to 3 hours each way as a general rule, period returns available on anything over 40 miles. These things would help businesses make savings on travel and accomodation.

I'm glad you think that most of the ideas are sensible, as I said it can't be a fix all, but that's my observations given nearly 14 years experience, so it shouldn't be wildly inaccurate.

 

[boing_uk]

What a load of old tosh.

"Please say the name of the station you wish to depart from"

"I want to travel from..."

And hes surprised the speech recognition software got it wrong? Might as well have read the first item of his shopping receipt in that case.

Busy trains heading in to London at rush hour? What a surprise. Take a look at Japanese railways - now THAT is overcrowding.

A 25 year old unit, with a 25 year old engine makes for a bit of a noisy journey. Blow me down with a feather.

And as for Steven Norris - Ive never wanted to punch anyone in the chops more than that man. British Rail was inefficient? Of that I have no doubt, in certain areas. But Im also sure if BR was allowed to get £24BN in to debt and had the subsidy Network Rail has, Im sure it could have been a damn sight more efficient, especially with all the fancy plant that NR has nowadays.

 

[WatcherZero]

And as for Steven Norris - Ive never wanted to punch anyone in the chops more than that man. British Rail was inefficient? Of that I have no doubt, in certain areas. But Im also sure if BR was allowed to get £24BN in to debt and had the subsidy Network Rail has, Im sure it could have been a damn sight more efficient, especially with all the fancy plant that NR has nowadays.

BR had billions of debt that was written off when it was privatised to give a clean slate, it also had no debt repayment program so the debts were just growing without ever being paid back (had some debts from investment in the 70's it had never repayed a penny of). It didnt reach the NR debt against regulatory base but it was in the tens of billions. This was because the government controlled the purs strings and didnt allow it to make long term investment, instead it had to self fund itself and every investment had to make at least an 8% return on investment (nowadays its even worse with everything publically funded needing at least a 50% return on investment).

 

[Anon Mouse]

Traintracker is a waste of space, God knows how it deals with Welsh place names. The traintracker and NRES Call Centre should be replaced with a localised system. I remember in the days of BR you used to be able to call Newcastle Station. Problem is that costs a British salary and conditions, something private companies dont like. Last night my Wife and I tried asking for 'Heworth' and traintracker just could not reconise it, no pleasantaries or anything like that. The system is not for the rail system simple as. These Call Centres in India are shocking too, Mumbai Call Centre is fine for Indian Railways not for British Railways. If it was not for the profit first culture of business it would be a no brainer.

 

[MadCommuter]

What a load of old tosh.

"Please say the name of the station you wish to depart from"

"I want to travel from..."

And hes surprised the speech recognition software got it wrong? Might as well have read the first item of his shopping receipt in that case.

Busy trains heading in to London at rush hour? What a surprise. Take a look at Japanese railways - now THAT is overcrowding.

A 25 year old unit, with a 25 year old engine makes for a bit of a noisy journey. Blow me down with a feather.

Couldn't agree more. I didn't learn anything from it and that's an hour of my life waste. I'm sure the Daily Mail readers out there loved every minute of it.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Just watching it now. What a load of rubbish! I also think they've alienated every commuter by using someone who is about 80, very posh, and tells people at the beginning that he has never travelled on a commuter service into London.

 

[jon0844]

Just went to settle down and watch it on the 4od Player, but dissapointed that it's not available to view yet!

It got stuck just outside Reading, but Channel 4 is insisting it isn't actually late as they're using a 'broadcasters timetable'...