Lothian Group discussion (Lothian City, Lothian Country Bus and East Coast Buses)

[Bus9120UK]

From what I can see on VOSA

• 2 changed to start at Hermiston Gait instead of Gyle Centre
• 4 extended to Queen Margaret University
• 10 changed to start at Ocean Terminal instead of Western Harbour
• 11 changed to start at Western Harbour instead of Ocean Terminal
• 15 has a registered variation but has same start / end point as current (Penicuik to Eastfield) which is currently incorrect, shall see if this comes to pass
• 19 extended to Eastfield
• 22 extended to Granton Harbour
• 30 curtailed to Queen Margaret University
• 45 curtailed to Eastfield
• 47 changed to serve Cammo, Crewe Toll
• 48 extended to Musselburgh Grammar School
• 49 curtailed to ERI
• N11 changed start point to Elm Row
• N14 changed West Granton Road to Nicolson Square only
• N22 curtailed Princes St to South Gyle only
• N200 introduced with same route as 200
• N400 introduced same route as current 400

I'd also add that I don't think the 47 will serve Crewe Toll, that's just the former via points from the previous registration. You'll notice the 124 still shows as going through Portobello, for example.

 

[roadierway77]

4 weeks later the tram line to Leith opens, however i'm also surprised such a major change is happening well before the line opens.

As far as I'm aware the 21st isn't the confirmed opening date for the tram extension, it's simply the latest date they're aiming to have it open by. It may well open before that date, perhaps these changes are an indication TfE plan to open the extension at the end of May.

 

[LothianBusesPh]

28 May 2023 looks to be the next Service Change date.

 

[computerSaysNo]

From what I can see on VOSA

• 2 changed to start at Hermiston Gait instead of Gyle Centre

What's the point of this? Does it save a bus?

• 4 extended to Queen Margaret University
• 45 curtailed to Eastfield

Again, what's the point?

• 10 changed to start at Ocean Terminal instead of Western Harbour
• 11 changed to start at Western Harbour instead of Ocean Terminal

These two look like they are to give more areas direct access to Ocean Terminal.

• 19 extended to Eastfield

Not sure what the point of this is either.

• 22 extended to Granton Harbour

From which direction? Seems a bit of a long way round to go via Gyle Centre but if it's from the City Centre then it's just going to be paralleling the tram until Newhaven, unless it's replacing something like the 14.

• 30 curtailed to Queen Margaret University

Don't really see the point. As far as I know Lothian don't have enough 'deckers at the moment to convert the 30, unless other routes are to switch to single-deck operation to free them up.

• 48 extended to Musselburgh Grammar School
• 49 curtailed to ERI

I wonder if the plan here is to convert both of these to single deck, would that free enough buses to make the 30 double-deck?

 

[LothianBusesPh]

From which direction? Seems a bit of a long way round to go via Gyle Centre but if it's from the City Centre then it's just going to be paralleling the tram until Newhaven, unless it's replacing something like the 14.

The service will go from the Gyle Centre to Granton Harbour, nobody is sure where it will go northbound after Prince's Street, yet.

 

[Bus9120UK]

From which direction? Seems a bit of a long way round to go via Gyle Centre but if it's from the City Centre then it's just going to be paralleling the tram until Newhaven, unless it's replacing something like the 14.

You'd think with the 47 going to Cammo the 22 will follow the old 47 route, no?

What's the point of this? Does it save a bus?

Personally that's my only explanation for it. Of course a lot of the areas (not all) along the 2 have other services operating to the Gyle, and the 36 operates Hermiston Gait to Gyle also.

 

[computerSaysNo]

from the Gyle Centre to Granton Harbour

As in as an extension of the existing service (as in City Centre -> Gyle Centre -> Granton)? Or Gyle -> City -> Granton?

 

[LothianBusesPh]

Don't really see the point. As far as I know Lothian don't have enough 'deckers at the moment to convert the 30, unless other routes are to switch to single-deck operation to free them up.

If these two services go via. Newcraighall then these would have to be single-decker allocated due to the low-bridge. This would mean some Evora's being transferred to Central or Marine where ever they would operate the 46 and 48.

You'd think with the 47 going to Cammo the 22 will follow the old 47 route, no?

That's exactly what I was thinking.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Apr 2023 ==

As in as an extension of the existing service (as in City Centre -> Gyle Centre -> Granton)? Or Gyle -> City -> Granton?

Gyle Centre > City > Granton.

 

[computerSaysNo]

If these two services go via. Newcraighall then these would have to be single-decker allocated due to the low-bridge. This would mean some Evora's being transferred to Central or Marine where ever they would operate these two services.

Yes sorry, I mistook the new 30 terminus to be Fort Kinnaird rather than Queen Margaret.

 

[ScotRail158725]

As we seen with how wrong the speculative changes to the 12/42 were on here it might be best until lothian announce the changes before we guess how the 22 47 etc… will be rerouted

Im also not surprised about a large scale network change like this. Things like the 2 being curtailed to Hermiston Gait, routes being withdrawn and replaced by revisions/extensions to other routes doesn’t surprise me, things like changes to the 30/106 in the Newcraighall area were inevitable.

 

[DunsBus]

As we seen with how wrong the speculative changes to the 12/42 were on here it might be best until lothian announce the changes before we guess how the 22 47 etc… will be rerouted

Im also not surprised about a large scale network change like this. Things like the 2 being curtailed to Hermiston Gait, routes being withdrawn and replaced by revisions/extensions to other routes doesn’t surprise me, things like changes to the 30/106 in the Newcraighall area were inevitable.

The last network change I can remember which was on this scale was in March 2000 (one of Neil Renilson's first acts as Lothian MD), with just a handful of routes surviving unscathed. Before that, of course, there was the one at deregulation in 1986.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

From what I can see on VOSA

• 2 changed to start at Hermiston Gait instead of Gyle Centre
• 4 extended to Queen Margaret University
• 10 changed to start at Ocean Terminal instead of Western Harbour
• 11 changed to start at Western Harbour instead of Ocean Terminal
• 15 has a registered variation but has same start / end point as current (Penicuik to Eastfield) which is currently incorrect, shall see if this comes to pass
• 19 extended to Eastfield
• 22 extended to Granton Harbour
• 30 curtailed to Queen Margaret University
• 45 curtailed to Eastfield
• 47 changed to serve Cammo, Crewe Toll
• 48 extended to Musselburgh Grammar School
• 49 curtailed to ERI
• N11 changed start point to Elm Row
• N14 changed West Granton Road to Nicolson Square only
• N22 curtailed Princes St to South Gyle only
• N200 introduced with same route as 200
• N400 introduced same route as current 400

Okay I can see some good and bad points with this..

* 2 being cut is pretty pointless, unless the section between Hermiston and Gyle is so underserved which I can’t imagine it would be, However the Tram and the 36 still cover the link so not the end of the world.

* 4 extending to QMU from The Jewel is abit random at least! Guessing it’s give the area a double decker service, but that will be ASDA losing another Lothian bus service!

* 19 extension is nice as it gives Portobello another service but since QMU seems to be the focus on these next service changes I would of thought it would of made more sense to extend to QMU since the 45 is apparently being cut..

22 - Interesting, will be nice to see where this will go..

30 - Gonna cause some major backlash I can already tell..

45 - I thought the point of the 45 was that it was a student service.. if you’re cutting the eastern terminal then you are missing the point! I would maybe understand running it as far as Eastfield on a Saturday But still!

46/48 - Interesting.. guessing the 46 will run via Niddrie like the 48, should send one of them up the Wisp as an experiment!

106 - To be honest… I can understand this one kinda, the 108 is still an option for the Fort and maybe this will be more popular among students in East Lothian!

N200/N400 - a welcome addition, hope the 400 evening timetable gets tweaked to accomodate this!

N11/N14 - So.. no one uses the Hospital at nighttime?

 

[Blindtraveler]

I don't suppose they'll be shouting particularly loudly about the reintroduction of the 22 North of the city centre, but the pressure on the 16 towards granton etc was immense and resulted in all manner of problems for stop the cut back to the N14 won't go down well

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Cut back to the N14 won't go down well

Always seems very underused. It could work absolutely fine with an Evora.

 

[Siemens Trains]

Thanks for sharing. If the 41 is being removed then that still leaves Cramond and Cammo without buses, as well as removing the direct connection between King's Buildings and Bristo Square.

Wonder what they would do about a direct bus between Davidson's Mains and the city centre if dropping the 41. Is that the idea of the 47 going to Cammo from Crewe Toll? There's a reasonable amount of trade over a small number of stops so Davidson's Mains seems commercially attractive. Cramond and Cammo don't appear good bus territory unless there's developer money on offer.
Although unlikely, perhaps the new service 9 will run via Chambers Street thereby replicating more of the south city section missed by withdrawing the 41. However I can understand why they don't fancy keeping the George IV Bridge to West End section of the 41 as it would be quicker walking (especially when going downhill). Plus of course the 23/27 already offer quite good coverage of The Mound.
Time will tell I suppose.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

As it looks like it will be very much related to these changes, can someone confirm if the two way slip to/from A1 at the QMU is completed/near completion? I assume it must be?

 

[LothianBusesPh]

As it looks like it will be very much related to these changes, can someone confirm if the two way slip to/from A1 at the QMU is completed/near completion? I assume it must be?

https://www.eastlothian.gov.uk/news/article/14038/final_phase_of_works_at_a1_qmu_junction

To enable safe completion of the remaining works , temporary traffic management will be installed on both carriageways for a short period of time during off peak hours (9.30am to 3.30pm). On Saturday, 15th April between 7am and 7pm, the QMU on slip will be closed to accommodate surfacing works.

Subject to favourable weather conditions and to allow for the final stages of the surfacing and landscaping, the contractor is planning to have the works complete and new roads operational by the 9th May 2023.

The Service Change looks to be on Sunday 28th May, which makes sense as Lothian usually commence these changes on a Sunday, this means that the slip road is scheduled to be open by this Service Change.

 

[Siemens Trains]

I'd also add that I don't think the 47 will serve Crewe Toll, that's just the former via points from the previous registration. You'll notice the 124 still shows as going through Portobello, for example.

Ah, I see. That makes more sense, thanks. The rerouted north part of service 47 would therefore replace the present 41 route between Cammo and West End then head up Lothian Road as at present, preserving the 41's link to the Old Town. Meanwhile the 9 replaces the 41 from city centre to King's Buildings.

 

[InOban]

Wonder what they would do about a direct bus between Davidson's Mains and the city centre if dropping the 41. Is that the idea of the 47 going to Cammo from Crewe Toll? There's a reasonable amount of trade over a small number of stops so Davidson's Mains seems commercially attractive. Cramond and Cammo don't appear good bus territory unless there's developer money on offer.
Although unlikely, perhaps the new service 9 will run via Chambers Street thereby replicating more of the south city section missed by withdrawing the 41. However I can understand why they don't fancy keeping the George IV Bridge to West End section of the 41 as it would be quicker walking (especially when going downhill). Plus of course the 23/27 already offer quite good coverage of The Mound.
Time will tell I suppose.

Since the new 9 is running via Marchmont it will be following the existing 41 route to the city centre

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Since the new 9 is running via Marchmont it will be following the existing 41 route to the city centre

More or less, I’d expect it to head through Nicolson Square and then as per the 8’s route to Muirhouse, with the two combining to offer an every 15 minutes service - both half hourly. North Bridge is listed in the 9’s registration.

 

[paul47B]

Okay I can see some good and bad points with this..

* 2 being cut is pretty pointless, unless the section between Hermiston and Gyle is so underserved which I can’t imagine it would be, However the Tram and the 36 still cover the link so not the end of the world.

* 4 extending to QMU from The Jewel is abit random at least! Guessing it’s give the area a double decker service, but that will be ASDA losing another Lothian bus service!

* 19 extension is nice as it gives Portobello another service but since QMU seems to be the focus on these next service changes I would of thought it would of made more sense to extend to QMU since the 45 is apparently being cut..

22 - Interesting, will be nice to see where this will go..

30 - Gonna cause some major backlash I can already tell..

45 - I thought the point of the 45 was that it was a student service.. if you’re cutting the eastern terminal then you are missing the point! I would maybe understand running it as far as Eastfield on a Saturday But still!

46/48 - Interesting.. guessing the 46 will run via Niddrie like the 48, should send one of them up the Wisp as an experiment!

106 - To be honest… I can understand this one kinda, the 108 is still an option for the Fort and maybe this will be more popular among students in East Lothian!

N200/N400 - a welcome addition, hope the 400 evening timetable gets tweaked to accomodate this!

N11/N14 - So.. no one uses the Hospital at nighttime?

A possibility that the 47 will take current 41 route between Queensferry Street and Cammo and the 22 will take current 47 route between Queensferry Street and Granton Harbour

 

[InOban]

Don't the Council have plans to largely pedestrianise George IV Bridge?

 

[buslad1988]

You’d think that the 31 would be extended from Polton Mill to Rosewell also. With the 46 running Rosewell to Musselburgh that leaves them without a service into Edinburgh?

 

[Bus9120UK]

You’d think that the 31 would be extended from Polton Mill to Rosewell also. With the 46 running Rosewell to Musselburgh that leaves them without a service into Edinburgh?

The situation reminds me of the 33 & 48 a while back. Obviously they still had the 29 to the City though. Looks like it'll be a connection for passengers unless the timings with the X31 work out well which won't be the case for most.

 

[Scotrail314209]

I'd hope with the new changes that they make the 100 at least every 15 minutes from 03:00 instead of 04:00. Consistently over the last two/three weeks the 100 has been consistently delayed in the early morning because of the sheer volume of passengers getting on in the City, not helped by it being every 30 minutes.

The other day one sailed past me completely full... a first for me. Since the check-in for most flights usually open at about 03:00/04:00 a more frequent 100 at this time would be quite helpful.

 

[tbtc]

could be smart

For example, if the 47 stays every twenty minutes then it’ll coordinate better with the 43 on Queensferry Road (than the 41 has)

The cut to the 45 seems odd though, whilst the 4 will be extending to QMU Presumably it’ll be doing that via Bingham , in which case it’s not going to be particularly fast, and won’t be providing a link from Portobello either (I agree with @TheEastCoaster about extending some 19s to QMU instead of an eastern 45)

The 22 running to Granton will stop done of the fantasy plans on here, but if the plan is to directly replace the northern section of the 47 then its not going to penetrate much of the city centre (Lothian Road to Queensferry Street) so might not be very attractive for passengers from western Edinburgh

The cut to the 2 seems surprising at first but I guess it doesn’t lose many links (a a shame that the McGills 20/63 aren’t so regular from Edinburgh Park to the Gyle these days)

Unthinkable in Eastern Scottish days that there’d be no local buses from Dalkeith to central Edinburgh along the A7

Rosewell looks like the biggest loser though

 

[DunsBus]

Unthinkable in Eastern Scottish days that there’d be no local buses from Dalkeith to central Edinburgh along the A7

In Eastern Scottish days the A7 went into Edinburgh from Dalkeith via Gilmerton and Newington. Its current routing via Danderhall and Cameron Toll is more recent, dating from 1991 and by which time Eastern Scottish had been privatised.

 

[Siemens Trains]

if the 47 stays every twenty minutes then it’ll coordinate better with the 43 on Queensferry Road (than the 41 has)

Doesn't the 41 run every 20 minutes at present?
The idea might be economising at the Marchmont end of its route by replacing with a lower frequency number 9 service.
Obviously just speculation at present. We'll hear the full story soon enough.

 

[goldisgood]

Doesn't the 41 run every 20 minutes at present?
The idea might be economising at the Marchmont end of its route by replacing with a lower frequency number 9 service.
Obviously just speculation at present. We'll hear the full story soon enough.

Wouldn't surprise me - always see the 41 running very empty through Old Town! And the same goes for the 8, both parts could very reasonably be reduced to run every 30 minutes without leaving anyone behind from my observations and I'm sure others can also comment.

 

[Siemens Trains]

In Eastern Scottish days the A7 went into Edinburgh from Dalkeith via Gilmerton and Newington. Its current routing via Danderhall and Cameron Toll is more recent, dating from 1991 and by which time Eastern Scottish had been privatised.

Yes, I believe the A68 was the number assigned to this route via Cameron Toll in the Eastern Scottish heyday. It connected to the old A7 at East Preston Street although I don't know if this was a favoured bus route junction.
But now of course the A68 ends in the middle of nowhere.