Arguably for good reason, that during its period of nationalisation it has certainly been the poster boy for moving away from a franchising system - every time it’s been under private hands it’s been crashed into the ground.
It’s had some over enthusiastic bids where the TOC has been unable to pay the promised premiums, but has the actual service gone badly under the private operators?
It seemed to take a battering under Virgin/Stagecoach in terms of reliability. I remember 2017 being a particularly difficult year.
Either way, I still cannot see new trains being built other than those on order ore being built currently until the HS2 trains are built. Which may mean that there is a gap of at least 2 - 7 years after the current orders are completed, before anymore new trains are built.
I am not sure that it will, as the issue is more down to finance more so than politics. The only way that any future government will be able to afford new trains, is to put the country into more debt for future generations to be paying off way past our time. Before anyone asks, I am not a conservative voter and in fact don't really trust any of the national political parties. But I am sure if someone really tried, that money could be found for new trains without having to put up taxes for the low to medium income people in the country. Then the other problem you have is that other areas also need more money such as National Health and only answer then seems to be to push up fares even more so to pay for the new trains, which then in turn pushes people away from trains on to buses and using cars.
Despite ScotRail having an ITT (invitation to tender) and TfL needing more Elizabeth Line trains.
But in this age of ROSCOs, it’s banks that pay for the train. Not the government.
Scotrail, outside of DfT/treasury control, is ordering new (B)EMUs
Where?
The 9 car fleet matches the previous fleet only on paper. In practice you’re getting 10 800s and 24 801s to replace 13 HSTs and 26 Mark 4 sets (in both cases diagram numbers not total fleet size), so the 5 car 80xs are required to plug the gap.
The DFT can place a follow on order for more of those locomotives should they wish, using the production line already established for the freight operators.
But for TOC's such as LNER, it is the DFT that give the approval for the trains to be purchased via the banks, who are actually just loaning the money to the Government for them to pay back via our taxes.
You stated that you do not see any new train orders being placed in the next 2-7 years. I gave you two examples that might suggest otherwise. And beside those, the tender for additional LNER units has not yet formally been cancelled.
Wrong. IEP was being tendered by DfT before VTEC ever came into existence.
Yes, I am meaning the stoppers, but most of these have faster options anyway. (Except Retford)
No the DfT approve leasing from a ROSCO who borrows from the banks. As such it doesn't count towards the national debt.
The Elizabeth Line fleet had a leaseback deal done on it. Given the EL's above expected performance it shouldn't be difficult to get the buyer to fund some more.
Everyone on a National Rail Contract is under DfT control, stock changes need to be authorised. Getting new stock isn't impossible but it would need to save money, for example its likely that a new fleet for Southeastern would cut costs as spares for the Networkers are getting even more difficult to get.
Would be the best solution, GWR can then release 9-car hybrids and Hitachi can remove the extra engines reverting to electric only for LNER to save maintenance.
The journey they do is fairly long, not really suited to a class 150 level of comfort.
Thank you for the correction, but your last two sentences has helped with making my point as to why I would not expect at least for a few years any new trains to be ordered or built for LNER.
But it was done with cooperation from Virgin/Stagecoach who where running the TOC at the time, hence why the DFT in taking over the franchise from Virgin/Stagecoach, kept with the white and red colours and Azuma name for the class 8xxx trains which was selected by Virgin/Stagecoach.
The IEPs had already been ordered by the time VTEC took over from East Coast. Retention of the branding was nothing to do with the rolling stock order.
Southern isn't better utilisation of the fleet, its service cuts. Better utilisation is providing a similar level of service with less fleet usage by being more efficient, turning 8 car Southern services into 5 car ones is just cutting capacity.
Indeed. VTEC had some input such as interior colours and convincing the DfT to include a buffet, the order itself is very DfT.
Those diagrams are very much at the limit of what's possible for the 80xs, with availability not being great for them. On paper there's 5 operational spare 9 car sets, the perfect number to see off the 225s, but in practice this wouldn't work. Unless things have recently improved it's not uncommon for not all of the operational spares to be available, at least thankfully it's been a while since availability was so poor as to have to cancel diagrams. TPE also struggle with 802 availability, to the extent where even with their staffing issues cancelling entire diagrams they still occasionally cancel 802 diagrams citing a lack of working units.The latest diagrams posted on whatdotheyknow show the current azuma fleet diagrammed as follows for 20-24 March...
9 car bimode - 13 sets for 9 diagrams and 1 operational spare.
5 car bimode - 10 sets for 6 diagrams, 1 operational spare, 1 route learning.
5 Car electric - 12 sets for 7 diagrams, 3 operational spare. (1 set only does 0630 KGX-LDS/1915 LDS-KGX)
9 car electric - 30 sets for 22 diagrams, 4 sets operational spare.
91+mk4 have 5 diagrams.
Diagrams, The Knowledge, Automated Announcements - a Freedom of Information request to London North Eastern Railway Limited
2018 Diagrams 2019 Diagrams 2020 Diagrams 2021 Diagrams Knowledge Timetable Change Posters Timetable May 2019 to May 2020 LNER Automated Azuma Announcements We do not have access to announcements from older trains, nor At Station announcements. 2021 Diagrams are up to date in terms of what has...www.whatdotheyknow.com
Which is, frankly, disgraceful. LNER was getting 81% availability from its diesel 1970s built HST power car fleet, yet Hitachi can't get above 78% for their supposedly state-of-the-art electro-diesel sets, and can get away with 65% if the spare and route learning diagrams are not resourced.
There were 15 HST sets of which 14 were diagrammed.
Or something like the 397s. The passengers won't like it, but the Civities are likely to become the defacto new trains for the foreseeable future, due to their relatively low price.
Eh? Am I reading this right? You are suggesting GWR release its 9 car sets which it desperately needs more of not less to let LNER run half empty Leeds trains with. So what happens to London to Plymouth , Cardiff and Bristol passengers? Squeeze into a 5 car set? Or maybe a 150 instead..? If GWR release anything in coming years (it wont) it would be the 5 cars which GWR has way too many of. Certainly not the 9 cars.
Of course, easy to forget about NL65!
The Leeds trains you're referring to aren't half empty but I'll definitely agree that GWR releasing any 80xs would be a bad move.
The Craigentinny based LNER fleet of power cars was 32: 43206/208/238/239/295/296/305-320/367 leased from Angel and 43251/257/272/274/277/290/299/300/302 leased from Porterbrook. So six spare power cars in addition to the diagrammed required for 26 in traffic.
Using TfW 158's to replace some or all of the Cardiff to the South West services GWR could rearrange it's fleet and release say three 9-cars or six 5-cars whichever is the best fit for GWR / LNER / Dft. GWR could gain capacity from this by releasing 80x's back to their core Intercity routes if they can get it past the DfT. LNER would then need to rearrange it's diagramming to release the MKIV's, more 5-cars to Leeds, cut the Hull LNER service altogether.
Crew costs for one. Most drivers do not sign 158s, whereas pretty much everyone now signs 80x. Added to the fact 158s are 30 years old, its just going to create more problems for GWR down the line. I will just reiterate as well, there is no way GWR could rationally lose a single 9 car set , as they very much need more not fewer of these. 5 car sets perhaps is different matter, but for a variety of reasons, replacing them with 158s isn't practical
Northern also need those 158s to see off their last 150s and even some 156s. GWR could do with some Voyagers or Meridians to replace the Castle HSTs instead but GWR's cost saving measure to the DfT was to more intensively use the 5 car IETs on these routes.
Agreed. Everyone wins, including XC.
Last 150s? They haven't withdrawn any yet, and the number of available 158s does not release all the 150/1s, let alone their fleet of 150/2s.
