Could more IETs be built for operators such as LNER?

[Jozhua]

As someone who is an occasional LNER rider, I have noticed that the service seems to be very well utilised and is always quite full.

With LNER being forced by treasury to ditch their IC225 fleet, I wonder whether the 80Xs currently being run will have enough capacity for their needs?

An extension of the existing 801s from 9 to 10 cars seems pretty obvious to me, as this would help match the doubled up 800s.

Then perhaps a few new 10 car 801s for Leeds services.

Seems like now would be a good time to order, as Hitachi are still in full swing producing the IETs and orders should be cheaper to tack onto...

 

[JonathanH]

Seems like now would be a good time to order, as Hitachi are still in full swing producing the IETs and orders should be cheaper to tack onto...

The rumours elsewhere (ie informed postings on the WNXX forum) are that the cost of future IET orders is now much higher than before, because of inflation both directly in the build process and the supply chain, to the extent that there is very little prospect of more IETs being built once the 805 / 807 / 810 orders are complete.

An extension of the existing 801s from 9 to 10 cars seems pretty obvious to me, as this would help match the doubled up 800s.

A 9-car 80x has pretty much the same capacity as a 10-car formation of two 5-car 80x units, because of the cabs / kitchen space. See above as to whether an extension from 9-car to 10-car is likely.

With LNER being forced by treasury to ditch their IC225 fleet, I wonder whether the 80Xs currently being run will have enough capacity for their needs?

There hasn't been an announcement of that yet. I would have thought that, if LNER are forced to ditch the IC225 fleet, it is probable that there would either be service cut backs, or selective 5-car operation on appropriate services. With most passengers using advance tickets, the loadings can be managed to some extent.

 

[Failed Unit]

There hasn't been an announcement of that yet. I would have thought that, if LNER are forced to ditch the IC225 fleet, it is probable that there would either be service cut backs, or selective 5-car operation on appropriate services. With most passengers using advance tickets, the loadings can be managed to some extent.

That was my understanding as well, nothing about the end of the 225 (not sure when the next major overhaul is due) but if they were to go they would be replaced by 5 car IETs already in service. So no more 2x 8xx, just single units and demand based pricing to prevent over-crowding.

How long will it be before the 222’s are suggested as a replacement for the IC225

 

[Hadders]

I dounbt The Treasury will authorise any additional new tyrains for LNER. We're likely to see further sweating the the existing fleet, and fares increased to price people off popular trains.

The best that can be hoped for is a cascade from elsewhere, maybe TPE?

 

[Grumpy]

I dounbt The Treasury will authorise any additional new tyrains for LNER. We're likely to see further sweating the the existing fleet, and fares increased to price people off popular trains.

The best that can be hoped for is a cascade from elsewhere, maybe TPE?

110mph EMU's might be ok for some of the Leeds trains. If only there were some spare....

 

[43096]

I dounbt The Treasury will authorise any additional new tyrains for LNER. We're likely to see further sweating the the existing fleet, and fares increased to price people off popular trains.

The best that can be hoped for is a cascade from elsewhere, maybe TPE?

If GWR could get its hand on some 15x units (e.g. from TfW) that could potentially free up the 802s planned to work GWR West services for transfer to LNER.

 

[JonathanH]

110mph EMU's might be ok for some of the Leeds trains. If only there were some spare....

I can't see 12-car 350/2s going down very well with travellers between Leeds and London at full fare prices.

 

[XAM2175]

Seems like now would be a good time to order, as Hitachi are still in full swing producing the IETs and orders should be cheaper to tack onto...

Don't LNER already have a request for tender out for the leftover IC225 replacement fleet?

Not that that means it will actually translate into an order, of course.

 

[JonathanH]

Don't LNER already have a request for tender out for the leftover IC225 replacement fleet?

Getting on for three years ago now though.

LNER New Trains (2023-)

Good morning, Does anyone have any information on the new trains that LNER intend to purchase for replacing the ten retained Intercity 225 sets when they’re off leased in approximately 2023? I know that they want approximately six but I wondered if there was any more details that had been...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Trainbike46]

Is there anything particularly preventing the IC225s staying longer?

If not, I would suggest it would be best to just keep them.

I thought the treasury has so far left LNER alone for the most part, and I hope it stays that way and they don't have to reduce their fleet

 

[DanNCL]

The lease on the 225s expires in the Summer so would have to be renewed (if it hasn’t been already), but otherwise they could continue for another few years if signed off. They’ve only recently had a heavy overhaul so would be good for a few more years. To stay beyond 2027 would require them to be fitted with ETCS.

Eversholt know there’s zero prospect of leasing the 91s to anyone else and almost zero prospect of leasing the Mark 4s to anyone else, so one would hope they’ll have offered LNER an attractive price, one that the DFT would approve. Pretty sure if LNER could find a way of showing the DFT that keeping the sets would generate more revenue they’d be allowed to keep them.

 

[Energy]

The best that can be hoped for is a cascade from elsewhere, maybe TPE?

802s transferred across once transpennine electrification is done?

 

[Bald Rick]

Plenty of places where LNER services run around with not many people on them, using up units that could be better deployed on busier services.

 

[JonathanH]

Plenty of places where LNER services run around with not many people on them, using up units that could be better deployed on busier services.

I think it is almost forum sacrilege to suggest that LNER trains aren't always full.

 

[D365]

Getting on for three years ago now though.

LNER New Trains (2023-)

Good morning, Does anyone have any information on the new trains that LNER intend to purchase for replacing the ten retained Intercity 225 sets when they’re off leased in approximately 2023? I know that they want approximately six but I wondered if there was any more details that had been...

www.railforums.co.uk

What are the odds on another last minute CAF order?

 

[Nym]

What are the odds on another last minute CAF order?

Unfortunately very high if any order is to be made. The joys of our lack of joined up thinking in this country.

 

[Irascible]

If GWR could get its hand on some 15x units (e.g. from TfW) that could potentially free up the 802s planned to work GWR West services for transfer to LNER.

Love this thinking... "hey, we already send all our retirees to the south-west, let's send all the retiree stock too, they'll love the familiarity!".

 

[RobShipway]

I must confess I have not been on any of the IC225 sets since the introduction of the IET sets, but when I did travel on an IC225 sets from Stevenage to London a few years ago, it was pretty much empty having come down from Leeds. Admittedly, this was 3pm, but it was 3pm during the working week. I have seen much the same from videos on Youtube that have been filmed recently.

What are the odds on another last minute CAF order?

Since TPE's contract at the moment is not likely to be renewed, would an order need to be made to CAF? You will 12 5 car class 397 units available to be transferred as well as 19 class 802 units.

Not sure if they can be added to the class 397 units, but you would also have 52 MK5A coaches that could be inserted into the 12 class 397 units.

With regards to the TPE class 802 units, I suspect that those could possibly either go to GWR or to Scotrail to replace HST sets. The class 185 units, would then transfer to Northern with the routes that TPE worked doing the same.

With regards to the Mark5A driving trailer cars, I wonder if they could be used with civity diesel or hybrid units? Admittedly, these would be new stock that is built other than the driving cars.

Admittedly, the above maybe crazy and it probably would be a case that Northern are running TPE services with not enough stock. But it is the only way that I can see the TPE stock being used, if there is no renewal of the contract.

 

[Trainbike46]

I must confess I have not been on any of the IC225 sets since the introduction of the IET sets, but when I did travel on an IC225 sets from Stevenage to London a few years ago, it was pretty much empty having come down from Leeds. Admittedly, this was 3pm, but it was 3pm during the working week. I have seen much the same from videos on Youtube that have been filmed recently.



Since TPE's contract at the moment is not likely to be renewed, would an order need to be made to CAF? You will 12 5 car class 397 units available to be transferred as well as 19 class 802 units.

Not sure if they can be added to the class 397 units, but you would also have 52 MK5A coaches that could be inserted into the 12 class 397 units.

With regards to the TPE class 802 units, I suspect that those could possibly either go to GWR or to Scotrail to replace HST sets. The class 185 units, would then transfer to Northern with the routes that TPE worked doing the same.

With regards to the Mark5A driving trailer cars, I wonder if they could be used with civity diesel or hybrid units? Admittedly, these would be new stock that is built other than the driving cars.

Admittedly, the above maybe crazy and it probably would be a case that Northern are running TPE services with not enough stock. But it is the only way that I can see the TPE stock being used, if there is no renewal of the contract.

If you're sending the 397s and Mk5s to LNER, and the 802s to GWR, LNER or Scotrail, what would be running the current TPE services? even if you keep the 185, that would be a massive reduction in stock

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It would also mean you increase the amount of diesel running under the wires, as you got rid of everything except the straight-diesel units

 

[RobShipway]

If you're sending the 397s and Mk5s to LNER, and the 802s to GWR, LNER or Scotrail, what would be running the current TPE services? even if you keep the 185, that would be a massive reduction in stock

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It would also mean you increase the amount of diesel running under the wires, as you got rid of everything except the straight-diesel units

I know, but I don't see any other choice that the DFT have to be honest, as I don't see them allowing any further new trains to be built other than class 805/807 and class 810 until the the trains for HS2 are built. The only exception being the new underground stock being built by Siemens.

Anything currently in production, will carry on to the end of the order that has been requested, so that is class 93, 99, 196, 197, 720, 730.

 

[Failed Unit]

Plenty of places where LNER services run around with not many people on them, using up units that could be better deployed on busier services.

Considering the London to Harrogate services are frequently 5 car (rather than 2x 5 car) I would agree. They can manage the loads with pricing. Make the 5 cars more expensive and the 9 cars either side will soon pick up the passengers.

The current 9 car fleet matches the HST / Mk4 they replaced. The 5 cars are in effect additional stock? (Question rather than statement)

I have used the London - York services when they are 5 car. (Vice 9) Busy but no forced standees.

 

[Snow1964]

I know, but I don't see any other choice that the DFT have to be honest, as I don't see them allowing any further new trains to be built other than class 805/807 and class 810 until the the trains for HS2 are built. The only exception being the new underground stock being built by Siemens.

Anything currently in production, will carry on to the end of the order that has been requested, so that is class 93, 99, 196, 197, 720, 730.

I wonder how much politics will change this, almost certainly in next 13-21 months there will be a general election, and the prospect of closing factories and supply chains and making people redundant because of a gap in orders might not be attractive to potential voters.

Makes lot of sense to be build add ons whilst production line exists, even if they are only some extra intermediate cars to lengthen 9car to 10car, or some 5car to 7car (for those where 5car struggles, but double unit is overkill). The caveat is any pendillino displaced by new HS2 stock would need a home, so don't rule out Cardiff and Bristol trains going electric (rather than bi-mode) and some of GWRs IETs being cascaded.

 

[XAM2175]

Since TPE's contract at the moment is not likely to be renewed, would an order need to be made to CAF? You will 12 5 car class 397 units available to be transferred as well as 19 class 802 units.
...
Admittedly, the above maybe crazy and it probably would be a case that Northern are running TPE services with not enough stock. But it is the only way that I can see the TPE stock being used, if there is no renewal of the contract.

TPE's contract not being renewed means that FirstGroup will not continue to run the operation. It doesn't mean that the actual TransPennine operation will be abolished.

 

[Failed Unit]

Maybe one for a different thread. But we actually appear to have a short term issue. When you consider the following.

IC
221 and 222 to become homeless

DMU
Various fleets 158 / 185 to be one homeless

EMU (25kv)
379s and 350s

EMU (3rd rail)
Lots when the 701s enter service.

Not suggesting the DfT has a strategy but it is very possible they are retiring the 225s (if they are) with the view of using the 221 / 222. However of course many challenges exist. If it is all about the money and the 225s are best value. Who cares newer units are available in store.

 

[Trainbike46]

TPE's contract not being renewed means that FirstGroup will not continue to run the operation. It doesn't mean that the actual TransPennine operation will be abolished.

and even if the government where abolishing TPE, whoever ends up taking over the services would need stock to run it, so sending all of the nova 1, 2 & 3 fleet elsewhere wouldn't work

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Apr 2023 ==

Maybe one for a different thread. But we actually appear to have a short term issue. When you consider the following.

IC
221 and 222 to become homeless

DMU
Various fleets 158 / 185 to be one homeless

EMU (25kv)
379s and 350s

EMU (3rd rail)
Lots when the 701s enter service.

Not suggesting the DfT has a strategy but it is very possible they are retiring the 225s (if they are) with the view of using the 221 / 222. However of course many challenges exist. If it is all about the money and the 225s are best value. Who cares newer units are available in store.

Why would LNER want or need diesel-only units when the vast majority of their routes are electrified, and the bits that aren't, are much better served with the bimodes already running there.

And where are these various DMU fleets you list coming from? I suspect any 158s freed up will be snatched up quickly

 

[Failed Unit]

and even if the government where abolishing TPE, whoever ends up taking over the services would need stock to run it, so sending all of the nova 1, 2 & 3 fleet elsewhere wouldn't work

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Apr 2023 ==


Why would LNER want or need diesel-only units when the vast majority of their routes are electrified, and the bits that aren't, are much better served with the bimodes already running there.

And where are these various DMU fleets you list coming from? I suspect any 158s freed up will be snatched up quickly

I wouldn’t suggest LNER getting conventional DMUs. Just stating generally they are about to become available. The Welsh ones are about to become available.

Sticking with LNER

Sequence of events.
1. Forced to had back 225s. They get scrapped.
2. Growth happens in 2-3 years and they need new units
3. Ask for new build - told no
4. Look at stock that is about to become homeless then take 221s or 222s as it is all that is left.

Why would they want a diesel fleet? They don’t but if it is all they can get in 2 or 3 years time they will take it. It will be useful to divert. Currently many lines have no service when they need to divert.

 

[geordieblue]

I wouldn’t suggest LNER getting conventional DMUs. Just stating generally they are about to become available. The Welsh ones are about to become available.

Sticking with LNER

Sequence of events.
1. Forced to had back 225s. They get scrapped.
2. Growth happens in 2-3 years and they need new units
3. Ask for new build - told no
4. Look at stock that is about to become homeless then take 221s or 222s as it is all that is left.

Why would they want a diesel fleet? They don’t but if it is all they can get in 2 or 3 years time they will take it. It will be useful to divert. Currently many lines have no service when they need to divert.

LNER are one of the operators that diverts most regularly, via Hertford Loop, Carlisle etc

 

[TheBigD]

The current 9 car fleet matches the HST / Mk4 they replaced. The 5 cars are in effect additional stock? (Question rather than statement)

Not quite.

Previous was 26 x Mk4 and 14 x HST diagrammed daily.

Azuma Fleet is...
9 car bimode 13/10
9 car electric 30/26
5 car bimode 10/8
5 car electric 12/10.

Currently some diagrams are operational spare or route learning duties.

 

[D365]

Anything currently in production, will carry on to the end of the order that has been requested, so that is class 93, 99

These locomotives have been ordered by private companies and therefore have absolutely nothing to do with DfT.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Apr 2023 ==

Not quite.

Previous was 26 x Mk4 and 14 x HST diagrammed daily.

Thought it was 28x IC225, wasn’t that why the Class 91s were refurbished in the 00s?

 

[TheBigD]

Thought it was 28x IC225, wasn’t that why the Class 91s were refurbished in the 00s?

Definitely 26 x Mk4 and 14 x HST. Often a 90 (occasionally 2) was used as 91 availability often dipped.

Very roughly divided as...
12 sets Kings Cross - Leeds
23 sets Kings Cross - Scotland
3 sets Kings Cross - York
2 sets Kings Cross - Newark.

Additionally a EMT HST did the 1845 ex Leeds and 2135 ex London on Sundays