Could Thameslink Rainham Trains Run via Lewisham?

[DynamicSpirit]

The Woolwich line timetable is currently a mess, and I'm wondering if it would work better if the 2tph Thameslink Rainham trains went via Lewisham, with all the Cannon Street trains going via Greenwich?

Some years ago, before Thameslink was running on that route, the pattern was:

• 6tph via Greenwich to Cannon Street - running every 10 minutes and stopping everywhere.
• 2tph via Lewisham to Charing Cross - running every 30 minutes and semi-fast.

That meant the pattern was simple and every station west of Slade Green got at least a train every 10 minutes. But then Thameslink started running on that route, it screwed up the regular intervals because Thameslink replaced 2tph of the via Greenwich trains but (for reasons I don't fully understand) apparently has to run semi-fast east of Charlton. So you ended up with:

1. 4tph all stops via Greenwich to Cannon Street
2. 2tph semi-fast via Greenwich to Luton/Thameslink
3. 2tph via Lewisham, all stops east of Charlton, at the time to Charing Cross but now those trains run to Cannon Street.

That pattern makes it impossible to run a regular 10-minute frequency at all stations via Greenwich because different trains are stopping at different stations. Not only that but Thameslink timetable constraints make it hard to fit their trains evenly into the gaps between SouthEastern trains. And to make it worse, SouthEastern have currently removed 2tph of the all stops via Greenwich (might be reinstated in the future). The result is that some stations on the line now have regular gaps of as much as 24 minutes between services, followed by two trains arriving in quick succession.

I'm thinking it would be better to have:

• 6tph (currently reduced to 4tph) via Greenwich to Cannon Street - running every 10 minutes and stopping everywhere.
• 2tph via Lewisham to Luton/Thameslink - running every 30 minutes and semi-fast.

If you did that, then you could go back to, every via-Greenwich train stopping everywhere, so a fixed interval along the line. The timetable planners would no longer need to worry about trying to synchronise the SouthEastern and Thameslink times to get a regular interval through Greenwich. And I think an added bonus would be fewer conflicting moves between London Bridge and Deptford, where the line layout was never designed to put Thameslink trains on the Greenwich tracks.

You'd still need SouthEastern to restore the 2tph that they removed to get back to a proper 10-minute interval, but even without that, it looks to me like running Thameslink via Lewisham would allow a better, more passenger-friendly, timetable.

Thoughts? Could that idea work?

 

[Magdalia]

Thameslink should not run to anywhere on the Dartford lines.

 

[43066]

for reasons I don't fully understand) apparently has to run semi-fast east of Charlton. So you ended up with:

Presumably because the TL trains partially replaced the ex Charing Cross - Gillingham Semi fasts?

but even without that, it looks to me like running Thameslink via Lewisham would allow a better, more passenger-friendly, timetable.

Overall not a bad idea. One obvious issue might be congestion at Lewisham and on the SEML slows via St Johns and New Cross, particularly if SE services are increased through the station in future.

 

[JonathanH]

Thameslink should not run to anywhere on the Dartford lines.

That is easy to say. It isn't easy to resolve without culling the Luton semi-fast north of the Thames.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Thameslink should not run to anywhere on the Dartford lines.

I actually rather agree with that. But - given that it does go to Dartford and there's nowhere else obvious for those 2tph Rainham trains to go, sending them via Lewisham seems better than the current situation. To my mind, the nice thing about putting them along that route is that Lewisham-Charlton is the only SouthEastern metro line that only has 2tph, which means it's the only route that Thameslink could take over completely, without any need to worry about working out a regular-interval timetable by combining SouthEastern and Thameslink trains.

 

[gordonthemoron]

Via Greenwich has 4 trains an hour at weekends, half of them are Thameslink, so no, rerouting Thameslink via Lewisham would not be a good idea

 

[JonathanH]

Via Greenwich has 4 trains an hour at weekends, half of them are Thameslink, so no, rerouting Thameslink via Lewisham would not be a good idea

The implication is that there would be alternative Southeastern trains via Greenwich.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Presumably because the TL trains partially replaced the ex Charing Cross - Gillingham Semi fasts?

I thought there was also an issue about Thameslink originally not being allowed to call at Woolwich Dockyard because of short platform issues (which doesn't fully make sense given that the only Thameslink trains on the route are 8-car so actually short enough, but I seem to recall was originally being cited as a reason for them not calling)?

 

[Magdalia]

That is easy to say. It isn't easy to resolve without culling the Luton semi-fast north of the Thames.

That's one option. Another is to start the Luton train from Epsom via West Croydon. This works fairly neatly northbound less so southbound where the London Bridge-Epsom path would need to move a bit. I'm not enough of an expert on 3rd rail land to know if that's feasible, especially through Norwood Junction and West Croydon.

 

[PGAT]

That's one option. Another is to start the Luton train from Epsom via West Croydon. This works fairly neatly northbound less so southbound where the London Bridge-Epsom path would need to move a bit. I'm not enough of an expert on 3rd rail land to know if that's feasible, especially through Norwood Junction and West Croydon.

If ThamesLink were to go to Epsom then you would have to replace the current London Bridge - Epsom service. It's impossible to have both.

I'm also concerned about overcrowding, as 8 coaches simply isn't good enough in the peaks.

 

[JonathanH]

That's one option. Another is to start the Luton train from Epsom via West Croydon. This works fairly neatly northbound less so southbound where the London Bridge-Epsom path would need to move a bit. I'm not enough of an expert on 3rd rail land to know if that's feasible, especially through Norwood Junction and West Croydon.

Yes, but you then incur costs of staff training, different stock diagrams, doing something with the Thameslink drivers at Gillingham and I'm sure other issues.

If ThamesLink were to go to Epsom then you would have to replace the current London Bridge - Epsom service. It's impossible to have both.

I think that is the point. It would simply switch over - Luton to Epsom

 

[PGAT]

Yes, but you then incur costs of staff training, different stock diagrams, doing something with the Thameslink drivers at Gillingham and I'm sure other issues.

I've seen ThamesLink trains run via Wallington relatively recently during diversions so staff training probably wouldn't be an issue

 

[JonathanH]

I've seen ThamesLink trains run via Wallington relatively recently during diversions so staff training probably wouldn't be an issue

That may be the case, and Wallington has long been a diversionary route for Thameslink, but I don't imagine the relevant drivers know the route south of Sutton, not to mention that there won't be enough of them to run the prospective Epsom service, since the spare drivers would be those currently based at Gillingham.

 

[Basil Jet]

I'm thinking it would be better to have:

• 2tph via Lewisham to Luton/Thameslink - running every 30 minutes and semi-fast.

Do you mean via London Bridge or via Elephant?

 

[John Webb]

Thameslink should not run to anywhere on the Dartford lines.

Why not? In the 1970s I lived in Woolwich but had taken up a new job in Borehamwood. The Thameslink service would have served me well had it existed then; instead of SR to London Bridge, Northern Line to St Pancras/Kings Cross and MML in grotty DMUs to Borehamwood taking one and a half hours. (I did eventually move....)

 

[30907]

I agree with the OP, and on a quick check (off-peak) the service can be pathed.

The service via Lewisham was historically a Charing X route, and replacing it with TL would have meant no CHX service via North Kent or Greenwich. However, as the Lewisham service has been switched to Cannon St, the objection is less important.
Of course, Greenwich would lose its TL service - but Lewisham would gain.

Operationally, the points have been made upthread:
1. Blackheath-Charlton is 2tph and likely to remain so and there are 2 Thameslinks so a good match.
2. The route from TL via NWX is easier to path at NKE Junction.
3. It allows a more even spread of services through Greenwich.

 

[ComUtoR]

2. The route from TL via NWX is easier to path at NKE Junction.

In what way ?

 

[43066]

In what way ?

I suppose there wouldn’t be the need for TL trains to cross the CST lines to get to and from the up and down Greenwich.

 

[30907]

I suppose there wouldn’t be the need for TL trains to cross the CST lines to get to and from the up and down Greenwich.

Correct. A quick look on eg Opentraintimes.org shows that TL to/from NWX and LBG to/from Greenwich can run in parallel - an improvement on the old layout.

 

[ComUtoR]

Correct. A quick look on eg Opentraintimes.org shows that TL to/from NWX and LBG to/from Greenwich can run in parallel - an improvement on the old layout.

Thameslink to and from Greenwich and London Bridge to Greenwich can also run in parallel.

I suppose there wouldn’t be the need for TL trains to cross the CST lines to get to and from the up and down Greenwich.

Everything pretty much uses 1 down, there is barely a clash. Any conflict will be trains coming from Cannon to New Cross.

Thameslink coming via Lewisham will need to cross over anything St Johns to Hither Green (avoiding Lewisham) and then need to also thread through anything going via New Cross. That will include any Cannon Street stoppers coming up from. Orpy.

If we are playing with the crayons then we need to remember that it isn't just about Charlton-Lewisham. You need to include all trains coming off the Bexley'eaf and everything running via St Johns and New Cross

 

[Magdalia]

If ThamesLink were to go to Epsom then you would have to replace the current London Bridge - Epsom service.

Yes, I meant replacing the London Bridge-Epsom trains with trains to/from Luton.

And an 8 car class 700 has lots of standing space!

I lived in Woolwich but had taken up a new job in Borehamwood.

Woolwich and Greenwich would lose out, but anywhere east of Abbey Wood has the Elizabeth line and anywhere east of Gravesend has the Javelin. And it would still be possible to change trains at London Bridge.

Do you mean via London Bridge or via Elephant?

I'm more relaxed about going to the South Eastern via Elephant.

The objective should be to eliminate at grade conflicting movements on and off Thameslink in the London Bridge area. That's what lots of the pre 2018 infrastructure changes were designed to achieve.

 

[telstarbox]

Thameslink has called at Lewisham during the last few years during engineering works. It would enable more "one change" connections from SE to North London than Greenwich does.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Why not? In the 1970s I lived in Woolwich but had taken up a new job in Borehamwood. The Thameslink service would have served me well had it existed then; instead of SR to London Bridge, Northern Line to St Pancras/Kings Cross and MML in grotty DMUs to Borehamwood taking one and a half hours. (I did eventually move....)

I'm not sure it would serve you today because the Elizabeth line is so much faster and much more frequent. Realistically, even if at Borehamwood you get on a Rainham train that's therefore directly going to Woolwich, you'll probably still get to Woolwich slightly quicker by changing to the Elizabeth line at Farringdon. And if you arrive at Borehamwood at a time when the next London train isn't a Rainham train (which realistically is probably at least 80% of the time), then changing to the Elizabeth line will be way quicker than changing at London Bridge.

 

[PGAT]

In all fairness Woolwich to Borehamwood is quite a niche journey.

 

[John Webb]

In all fairness Woolwich to Borehamwood is quite a niche journey.

I quite accept that - but I must admit when I'm up at the St Albans South Signal box doing things these days it seems very strange to hear my former local station name being announced!

 

[SE%Traveller]

That is easy to say. It isn't easy to resolve without culling the Luton semi-fast north of the Thames.

You could run Luton to Orpington by Catford easily enough. The paths are all there, they just didn't go beyond Kentish Town off peak. The amount of peak extras to Luton has dropped a lot, particularly in the evening peak. So run the Thameslink trains via Catford (where they're basically the only option on the line anyway) and have southeastern provide a more regular/ even space service on teh london bridge metro lines

 

[Mikey C]

A good idea. The semi-fast Gillingham to Charing Cross always used to go via Lewisham, so effectively the old "62" would then be replaced by this new semi-fast Thameslink service.

Plus the 4 an hour SE services, now all going via Greenwich, could be spaced properly every 15 minutes.

 

[cle]

Did the 4tph Catford Loop return yet, so this would be 6? Or a way of reinstating 4?

Greenwich at an even 15 min interval is still a massive downgrade from the 6tph/even 10 that line had for years. Add tons of housebuilding all through the route, and new connections feeding onto Crossrail, a metro service of 6tph minimum is needed more than ever.

 

[SE%Traveller]

i was thinking more of reinstatement of the all day Orpington service instead of the Rainham one, with that going back to South Eastern so they can have the flexibility on intervals.

Obviously I'd prefer that the Catford Loop went back to 4TPH, but if that's not on the table for cost purposes you could run 2 TPH Luton - Sevenoaks all day complimented with 2TPH Welwyn - Orpington in the peaks.

You'd just need to find a home in the South for the 4/5 peak Luton trains in the AM peak and the one train in the evening that goes further North than Kentish Town...

 

[NorthKent1989]

I agree with the previous poster who said Thameslink has no place anywhere on the Dartford routes, the Dartford routes were dropped from the original proposals in the early 2000s because planners couldn’t find a way how to make the service work without fudging up SE services, there was also the matter with which core entry any Thameslink route through Dartford would enter; London Bridge or Elephant, any route would have created a conflict move as the service does now via Greenwich at North Kent East.

Back on track; routing Thameslink via Lewisham then onto Woolwich and beyond might’ve been a better idea, this route for the longest time had been the outer suburban route, even summer excursions use this routing rather than the other Dartford routes, plus it’s worth noting that when ever the subject of TfL takeover is raised, their maps always leaves out the Lewisham-Charlton section and puts it as the Gillingham service, while all other lines are depicted as being taken over by TfL, Add the fact that this route is 2tph as well.

However I’d personally route the Thameslink via Sidcup, the Woolwich/Greenwich lines has the Elizabeth line and DLR interchanges and the Bexleyheath line has the useful Victoria service which offers a cross South London service, while the Sidcup line doesn’t have its “bonus service”

We on the Woolwich line would rather we had our Charing Cross trains back but that’s for another thread.