Tfl Investigation letter for Smoking

[Vic2023]

Hi guys

I need advice on how to reply to the investigation and prosecution letter from Tfl.

On the said day of the offence, I was waiting for a coach at Victoria coach station when I ran into a friend, we went outside to share some cigarette while we had a quick chat. While chatting a call came in, I stepped away a bit from the friend a few steps to a little corner still outside. I then got approached by some officers that said it was a non smoke area and a properties of Tfl. They took my details and said I will receive a letter.

I have now received a letter that did not state the offence but I suspect it that event.

I am a few days into the UK April 2023 and just came into London first time .

It's scared on a possibility of a criminal record.

I do appreciate your advice on how to reply. Thanks

 

[scrapy]

What did the letter say?

 

[gray1404]

Can you possibly pin point on Google maps or describe where exactly you were stood?

 

[30907]

This is an unusual one for this forum.
Good news - the offence will be under the TfL Byelaws - and the good news is that those offences are "non-recordable" which means you don't get a criminal record.

I presume that they want you to give your side of the story:
if you were in a non-smoking area, then admit the offence, offer an apology, and a promise not to repeat the offence; perhaps the apology should say that, as a newcomerto he UK,, you weren't aware of the detailed rules.

However, gray1404 has made an important point.

If there is a chance it might affect your immigration status, you need specialist advice, though.

 

[Vic2023]

Here is the location on google.

 

[gray1404]

So you were stood on a public pavement?

 

[L401CJF]

Here is the location on google.

There are quite clearly "No Smoking" signs on the walls on both side of the entrance - however - is it legal to enforce this considering its outside on a public pavement? Smoking indoors would obviously be against the law but smoking outside on the street?

A quick google search found this image of the entrance shown on the OPs Google Earth Screenshot - Funnily enough with a guy having a smoke outside.

Image taken from Google of the entrance to Victoria Coach Station

 

[gray1404]

If you are positive that you were smoking on the public pavement I would simply write back saying that no offense has been committed and that you are not on TfL premises, rather on the public pavement.

I would also personally involve my Greater London Assembly Member on this one. If you would stood on a public pavement then they had no right whatsoever to request, obtain or process your details.

 

[OhNoAPacer]

It is possible that if standing beside the no-smoking sign you might not be on the public pavement but technically on TFL property. I say this noting that in this area you are beneath the Victoria Coach Station sign.

 

[ChewChewTrain]

Compare and contrast: in 2002, I was waiting on a platform for a train in Germany. This was before smoking was banned on UK stations, and, as no-one else was anywhere near and I saw no signs prohibiting it, I lit up, as I often did in those days.

A nice blonde lady in uniform approached me and started speaking to me. I knew no German so asked her if she could use English, which she did very fluently. She patiently and kindly explained that smoking wasn’t allowed and the reasons why. I apologised and she then wished me well and walked off, but not before giving me a packet of sweets.

Surely it is only common sense that a friendly warning, rather than a federal case, is the appropriate response to this kind of thing if the mickey isn’t being taken. And surely this particularly applies if someone is unfamiliar with the country they’re in.

 

[furlong]

Did they point to a notice making it clear smoking was not allowed by law where you were standing?

For reference:

3. Smoking
No person shall smoke or carry a lit cigar, cigarette, lighter, match, pipe, or other lighted item on any part of the premises on or which there is a notice indicating that smoking is not allowed.
...
17. Notices
No person shall be subject to any penalty for breach of any of the Byelaws by disobeying a notice unless it is proved to the satisfaction of the Court before whom the complaint is laid that the notice referred to in the particular Byelaw was
displayed.
...
“notice” means a notice given by or on behalf of the Operator;
“Operator” means:
(a) Transport for London and any of its subsidiaries; or
(b) any person or body granted the authority by Transport for London or any of its subsidiaries to act as Operator in relation to any part of the premises;
“premises” means road transport garages, depots, bus stations, shelters and other road transport premises now or hereafter belonging to, leased to or worked by the Operator and the approaches thereto;

I'd be surprised if those two signs in the picture are sufficient - they look to be restricting smoking inside, like the face covering posters.
The officers will need to have taken photos of the signage at the time, given number 17 above. We need to see a current photograph.
There's also a word missing from number 3 - I quoted that from the website download and it should say 'on or NEAR which' - so it'll be necessary to check the primary source here if they want to rely on that word "near".

 

[Snow1964]

It is possible that if standing beside the no-smoking sign you might not be on the public pavement but technically on TFL property. I say this noting that in this area you are beneath the Victoria Coach Station sign.

That is probably the case, even though doors are set back, the area under the canopy between the outer walls is probably TfL property.

Note that under 17 it specifically includes "... and the approaches thereto" and this is clearly an approach to a building.

On a more general note the law does sometimes get changed, eg from September 2022 it is illegal to smoke within 15m of any part of a hospital building.

 

[AlterEgo]

I'd be surprised if those two signs in the picture are sufficient - they look to be restricting smoking inside, like the face covering posters.

I agree. I would think it is reasonable to interpret the sign as applying to the inside of the building, as a warning to people entering.

 

[The exile]

Compare and contrast: in 2002, I was waiting on a platform for a train in Germany. This was before smoking was banned on UK stations, and, as no-one else was anywhere near and I saw no signs prohibiting it, I lit up, as I often did in those days.

A nice blonde lady in uniform approached me and started speaking to me. I knew no German so asked her if she could use English, which she did very fluently. She patiently and kindly explained that smoking wasn’t allowed and the reasons why. I apologised and she then wished me well and walked off, but not before giving me a packet of sweets.

Surely it is only common sense that a friendly warning, rather than a federal case, is the appropriate response to this kind of thing if the mickey isn’t being taken. And surely this particularly applies if someone is unfamiliar with the country they’re in.

IIRC, 2002 was long before any legally-based smoking ban in Germany, so unless you were next to something highly inflammable she would have been “enforcing” policy rather than law.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you are positive that you were smoking on the public pavement I would simply write back saying that no offense has been committed and that you are not on TfL premises, rather on the public pavement.

I would also personally involve my Greater London Assembly Member on this one. If you would stood on a public pavement then they had no right whatsoever to request, obtain or process your details.

Might be worth going back for a look to see if it may have been part of the coach station property or not. Usually in London there are studs in the pavement delimiting the "private" property.

That said, TfL are responsible for the local road network in London, so on a technicality this may not matter.

 

[fandroid]

deleted

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Apr 2023 ==

That said, TfL are responsible for the local road network in London, so on a technicality this may not matter.

I thought that TfL were only responsible for major routes, with the Boroughs responsible for the majority of streets.

 

[Vic2023]

Apologises everyone this is the correct entrance and I can see the no smoking sign. It just did not register

 

[spag23]

So the OP was on TfL premises, smoking next to a No Smoking sign. But an invitation to extinguish - unless challenged/ignored - strikes me as a more appropriate remedy.
As an aside, I see the entrance comprises a tunnel. So I'd imagine that smoke gets blown into the main concourse.
There's a similar tunnel under the offices that bridge two wings of Broadcasting House. But contrastingly, a spot here (next to George Orwell's statue) has been designated a staff smoking area, complete with ashtrays and a fire hose point. What3words: words.cute.settle

 

[skyhigh]

There's a similar tunnel under the offices that bridge two wings of Broadcasting House. But contrastingly, a spot here (next to George Orwell's statue) has been designated a staff smoking area, complete with ashtrays and a fire hose point. What3words: words.cute.settle

What's the relevance of what happens elsewhere?

 

[WesternLancer]

I would also personally involve my Greater London Assembly Member on this one. If you would stood on a public pavement then they had no right whatsoever to request, obtain or process your details.

OP 'location' says Coventry so won't have a Greater London Assembly Member to represent them. Also says 'a few days in UK' so I guess perhaps passing thru Victoria Coach station and maybe not a UK citizen or on the UK electoral register yet anywhere so I suspect this advice is not especially relevant on this occasion.

 

[spag23]

What's the relevance of what happens elsewhere?

I was just remarking - for the benefit of smokers from overseas, like the OP - that different covered/enclosed areas can have very divergent rules as to the acceptability of smoking there; ie look out for signage/ashtrays.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

It now seems that
- the OP was smoking on TfL premises
- there was a clear sign not to smoke
- the OP is based outside the UK and is on a visit of limited duration.

As someone said above, we are rarely asked about smoking problems, and most of what we look at involves railway companies rather than TfL. But with those limitations my view is as follows:

The OP is most likely in breach of the rules and TfL often prosecute for breaking the rules. But as the OP isn't in the UK for ever, a prosecution will be difficult. So TfL may be willing to settle the matter out of court.

In turn, this means that the OP should reply to TfL
- accepting that they were wrong to smoke where they did
- apologising for doing so
- explaining that they will be leaving the UK soon (if you know when you are going, say when)
- asking if in the circumstances it would be possible to settle the matter without court action.

While TfL don't normally settle out of court, co-operation and apologies may be enough to get them to do so this time.

 

[Hadders]

TfL don’t normally do out of court settlements, but I suspect the best outcome would be a warning from them.

IIRC we had a similar thread recently that involved someone taking a bike on the Elizabeth Line and that ended up with a warning.

 

[AlterEgo]

TfL don’t normally do out of court settlements, but I suspect the best outcome would be a warning from them.

IIRC we had a similar thread recently that involved someone taking a bike on the Elizabeth Line and that ended up with a warning.

I rather suspect the same may happen here. I’d encourage the OP to draft up a letter and post it so we can check it. I think they should emphasise they’re new to the UK (our smoking norms aren’t like many places) and they regret falling foul of the rules this time and will be more careful going forward.

 

[furlong]

So where precisely were you standing when approached? You've drawn a green arrow, but where precisely were you? Under the canopy or outside? There is a sign on the wall there a metre or so inside saying 'No smoking beyond this point' so it is crucial to understand where you were relative to that sign - beyond that sign or not - as you could still be under the canopy but not beyond that point. Even so, I'm unconvinced that the signage on that side of the entrance is sufficient as it is indistinguishable from signage commonly used that is merely advisory, where there is no penalty and no criminal offence. I think signage needs to indicate in some way that it is mandatory or that there may be a penalty for disobeying it i.e. "not allowed" by law. If you were standing on the left pavement in the photo instead of the right, then there are there two prominent signs that do make this extremely clear - there should be more signs like those ones IMHO.

Very curiously, there doesn't seem to be a single sign anywhere about not smoking in or around Arrivals! Departures have small signs dotted all over inside which just about make clear there might be a penalty (and I think would be considered poor though adequate) but strangely most of the outside ones don't. Just the two extra words "Penalty applies" on each one of the signs would make all the difference and might have made you think twice IMHO.

 

[30907]

So where precisely were you standing when approached? You've drawn a green arrow, but where precisely were you? Under the canopy or outside? There is a sign on the wall there a metre or so inside saying 'No smoking beyond this point' so it is crucial to understand where you were relative to that sign - beyond that sign or not - as you could still be under the canopy but not beyond that point.

I agree.
Clearly there is a safety issue (as well as a public health issue) about smoking in a covered bus station, but the clear implication of that sign is that smoking is NOT forbidden on the street side of it. (There is a similar large sign by the Passenger Entrance just to the right.)
There is a smaller sign on the wall facing the public highway, the status of which is unclear, as it is not AFAIK illegal to smoke there!

OT: and there is a large sign forbidding entry to pedestrians, again a safety issue but one that is seemingly not enforced!

 

[Vic2023]

All find my intended reply below, kindly help review. Thanks in advance.

The Investigation and Prosecution Team

I accept committing below offence and sincerely apologise to Tfl and the general public

On the 10th of April 2023, I travelled from Coventry City to London for the first time ever to collect my BRP (Biometric Residence Permit) and on 11th of April, I was at the London Victoria coach station waiting for my bus so I can travel back to Coventry City. I bumped into an old friend, excitedly exchanged greetings and decided to share a cigarette. On lighting my cigarette, I had a call which I got carried away and a little distracted before enforcement officers approached me. I explained to the officer that I went over there to get a quieter place to take the call, I quenched the cigarette immediately and tendered an apology and explained what happened.

I answered every question I was asked without any hesitation.

I sincerely regret my actions and do apologise to the great city of London, TFL and the entire public. I'm only few weeks in the UK having arrived on April 1st, 2023. I have always been law abiding from the country I came from. I honestly plead mercy as I should not have been smoking there.

Please, take this letter as my humble apology to everyone and the entire city. I can assure that there will never be a repeat of such incident as I will be more careful next time. I have so much respect for laws and this country.

Kindly find attached document evidences for the below
1. My flight ticket into the UK and letter to collect my BRP (Biometric Residency Permit) in London
2. My coach ticket that brought me to the location

Thanking you in advance for your leniency and kind consideration

 

[AlterEgo]

You don’t need to apologise to the public or the whole city of London. You’re not being sent to Tower Hill for treason!

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Additionally, I doubt TfL would be demanding how the OP got into the London & UK and evidence of transport

 

[gray1404]

I'm not convinced you've committed an offence as you were on a public pavement and for an offence to have been committed there needed to be sufficient signage.