Class 810 for East Midlands Railway Construction/Introduction Updates

[dosxuk]

Given that the 810s were developed specifically for this route to cope with the shorter platforms at St. P, they would have to have one heck of an other idea!

The platforms at st pancras were built to allow for standard length carriages - 12x20m or 10x23m. The 80x range then decided to ignore that standard, so there are plenty of other options available as long as you don't want an 80x. The 810s are effectively a standardized length version of the 80x's.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Ah good thanks, so potentially the successor to EMR isn't tied to using the 810s if they have other ideas.

The DfT, or maybe GBR by then, will tell the next operator what they can and can't use.

 

[43074]

They could, but I think that the idea of 9-car units on the services from St Pancras is somewhat wishful thinking.

Ah, there speaks someone who has never used EMR Intercity services.

The very reason the 810s have 24m coaches is so 10 car sets can fit at St Pancras, long formations was clearly not wishful thinking in the 2019 franchise bid.

 

[JonathanH]

Ah, there speaks someone who has never used EMR Intercity services.

You think?

Admittedly, most of the ones I go on are counter flow and generally have many spare seats.

The very reason the 810s have 24m coaches is so 10 car sets can fit at St Pancras, long formations was clearly not wishful thinking in the 2019 franchise bid.

I am aware of the 10-car plan. My point was that there are numerous services where 5-car trains on the EMR network are adequate and the 5-car / 10-car plan had that in mind.

 

[Nottingham59]

The current order for 33 units allows for all peak services to be 10 car, plus around 50% of off peak services.
For example, from a fleet of 33 units you would realistically diagram 28 or 29 sets.
The half hourly Sheffield service requires 10 sets, and the half hourly Nottingham service requires 9 sets. So you will have around 8 or 9 sets available for 10 car running.

My point was that there are numerous services where 5-car trains on the EMR network are adequate and the 5-car / 10-car plan had that in mind.

As I understand it, the plan is that around half of the 810 services will be 10-car and about half will be 5-car. Which means that around two-thirds of all passengers will be carried on 10-car trains. It just so happens that trains in the southbound am peak on the MML tend to arrive back at St Pancras at the right time to carry the northbound pm peak traffic.

But the extra hassle of splitting and joining and the extra crewing costs of running two units with no inter-connection are not insignificant. It's easy enough to visualise cases where an operator or DfT decides it's cheaper to run non-splitting trains on the MML.

 

[QSK19]

But the extra hassle of splitting and joining and the extra crewing costs of running two units with no inter-connection are not insignificant. It's easy enough to visualise cases where an operator or DfT decides it's cheaper to run non-splitting trains on the MML.

It kind of makes me think whether it would have been a possibility to build a 110mph gangwayed regional express bi-mode unit for its IC services (albeit with an IC-level of comfort, no corners cut, no expense spared) so as to overcome the issue of the inability to move between units (and the seat inefficiency of having two pointy nosed cabs in the middle of a 10-car service). Something shaped like a 350 or gangwayed 755, albeit 5-car, 24m per car. That way, there would be a train befitting of IC comfort yet overcoming the issue of no inter-connectivity. Also, seeing as the longest journeys along the MML are much shorter than, for example, along the ECML or WCML, a regional express train may be appropriate.

I know that a major flaw would be not being able to match Meridian timings and not reaching 125mph; but is there that much >110mph running along the MML anyway?

Mods: please do feel free to move this across to Speculation and call it something like “Could EMR have had gangwayed 110mph stock for its Intercity services?”; however I’ve posted it here because it’s in response to the problem of there being no inter-connectivity between units, a fundamental aspect of the 810’s construction.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Apr 2023 ==

As I understand it, the plan is that around half of the 810 services will be 10-car and about half will be 5-car.

Wouldn’t this have resulted in 31 of the 33 trains needing to be in service at any one time (hence the reason that the 180s were going to be kept)? 31 seems an unsustainably high number; so surely some services would have to be reduced to 5-car?

 

[baz962]

It kind of makes me think whether it would have been a possibility to build a 110mph gangwayed regional express bi-mode unit for its IC services (albeit with an IC-level of comfort, no corners cut, no expense spared) so as to overcome the issue of the inability to move between units (and the seat inefficiency of having two pointy nosed cabs in the middle of a 10-car service). Something shaped like a 350 or gangwayed 755, albeit 5-car, 24m per car. That way, there would be a train befitting of IC comfort yet overcoming the issue of no inter-connectivity. Also, seeing as the longest journeys along the MML are much shorter than, for example, along the ECML or WCML, a regional express train may be appropriate.

I know that a major flaw would be not being able to match Meridian timings and not reaching 125mph; but is there that much >110mph running along the MML anyway?

Mods: please do feel free to move this across to Speculation and call it something like “Could EMR have had gangwayed 110mph stock for its Intercity services?”; however I’ve posted it here because it’s in response to the problem of there being no inter-connectivity between units, a fundamental aspect of the 810’s construction.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Apr 2023 ==


Wouldn’t this have resulted in 31 of the 33 trains needing to be in service at any one time (hence the reason that the 180s were going to be kept)? 31 seems an unsustainably high number; so surely some services would have to be reduced to 5-car?

At a rough estimate around 40 miles in each direction of 120 and over. Plus some 115.

 

[bluelagoon8951]

They could, but I think that the idea of 9-car units on the services from St Pancras is somewhat wishful thinking.

i've worked on plenty a 10 car (pair of 5 cars) out of there.

 

[JonathanH]

i've worked on plenty a 10 car (pair of 5 cars) out of there.

10-car train formed of two units, yes. It is some time since 222001-222007 were 9-car units.

My point was around having fixed formation 9-car units again instead of pairs of 5-car trains, not the maximum formation of trains on the route.

 

[bluelagoon8951]

10-car train formed of two units, yes. It is some time since 222001-222007 were 9-car units.

My point was around having fixed formation 9-car units again instead of pairs of 5-car trains, not the maximum formation of trains on the route.

yeah that's fair. i like the (few and far between) 7-car units, but they have way too much first class on them. i do wish the new ones were all 7-10 cars.

 

[tsyxa]

yeah that's fair. i like the (few and far between) 7-car units, but they have way too much first class on them. i do wish the new ones were all 7-10 cars.

At least train staff seem to be somewhat willing to declassify sections of first when the train is full and standing. Am I right in saying either some or all of the ex 4-car units have 3 carriages of first?

 

[BJames]

At least train staff seem to be somewhat willing to declassify sections of first when the train is full and standing. Am I right in saying either some or all of the ex 4-car units have 3 carriages of first?

222103/104 (the ex 4-car units) have two full carriages of first, the composite carriage consists of declassified first and standard, and the remaining 2 cars are standard class (so it is now three carriages of standard and two first).

222005/6 (the ex 7-car units) have two carriages of first and three standard, but a small part of first class is declassified to attempt to replicate the proportions of standard to first on the rest of the 222 fleet, so only really 1.5 carriages of first.

 

[bluelagoon8951]

At least train staff seem to be somewhat willing to declassify sections of first when the train is full and standing. Am I right in saying either some or all of the ex 4-car units have 3 carriages of first?

i'm train staff, but the declassification isn't my decision. every 7 car i've been on has 3 carriages of first class seats, but exactly one of them had labels on half of one carriage saying "standard class". even that was 4.5 standard 2.5 first. i hope the 810s are 4 standard 1 first because genuinely no more first is needed than that.

 

[Killingworth]

i'm train staff, but the declassification isn't my decision. every 7 car i've been on has 3 carriages of first class seats, but exactly one of them had labels on half of one carriage saying "standard class". even that was 4.5 standard 2.5 first. i hope the 810s are 4 standard 1 first because genuinely no more first is needed than that.

If they are going to operate with such a high first ratio they need to reduce all first class fares. Orf maybe introduce 2nd and 3rd!

 

[yorkie]

Can we please stick to traction & rolling stock discussion relating to Class 810s in this thread please.

We do very much welcome all the other discussion being generated, but we simply ask that these posts are made in the appropriate forum sections please; for any speculative posts this would be the Speculative Discussion forum.

Many thanks

 

[Rxstron]

Seems like 810001 is coming along well.. seems like it's just the interior that needs doing and then some minor external adjustments. Hopefully mainline testing within the next few months?

 

[800001]

Seems like 810001 is very close to being complete.. seems like it's just the interior that needs doing and then some minor external adjustments. Hopefully mainline testing within the next few months?

It will do mainline testing without interior fitted.

The unit is loaded with weights and various wiring for testing.

The unit is a long way from having its interior fitted.

Other units will have interiors fitted before this unit.

 

[zwk500]

It will do mainline testing without interior fitted.

The unit is loaded with weights and various wiring for testing.

The unit is a long way from having its interior fitted.

Other units will have interiors fitted before this unit.

Do you know if it will do mainline testing on the MML itself or will it be tested elsewhere (WCML?)?

 

[Rxstron]

Do you know if it will do mainline testing on the MML itself or will it be tested elsewhere (WCML?)?

It'll most likely be the MML as they test to make sure the train runs without any problems on the route it will serve, although it may end up on other lines, who knows

 

[800001]

Do you know if it will do mainline testing on the MML itself or will it be tested elsewhere (WCML?)?

Initially it (and possibly another 1 or 2) will head to the Melton Rail Innovation & Development Centre, at Asdordby (formally the Old Dalby Test Track).

 

[liamf656]

It'll most likely be the MML as they test to make sure the train runs without any problems on the route it will serve, although it may end up on other lines, who knows

You say that however most of the 222’s initial testing when new was on the ECML, as far north as Newcastle

 

[LowLevel]

Some parts of the interior are already complete in other units. This one won't be done for a while as others have said. The internal photos (which sadly I can't share) look good.

 

[Rxstron]

You say that however most of the 222’s initial testing when new was on the ECML, as far north as Newcastle

This might have been because when the 222s first entered service they were not only with EMT but also with Hull Trains, but interesting nonetheless. Now that I think about it trains are probably tested all over the UK network so that when the trains are sold to other operators there isn't the need for an extra load of testing to be done, so yeah we might see them elsewhere

 

[JonathanH]

This might have been because when the 222s first entered service they were not only with EMT but also with Hull Trains, but interesting nonetheless.

It isn't. There are a number of things which are relevant in initial acceptance testing, notably paths, a suitable depot location, and the people doing that testing.

They don't necessarily have to be tested on the actual route until they are in the hands of the operator, noting in particular that the route between London and Luton doesn't have a lot of spare fast line paths.

 

[800001]

Some parts of the interior are already complete in other units. This one won't be done for a while as others have said. The internal photos (which sadly I can't share) look good.

810003 will be the first unit to be completed with the full interior fitted.

 

[Snow1964]

Initially it (and possibly another 1 or 2) will head to the Melton Rail Innovation & Development Centre, at Asdordby (formally the Old Dalby Test Track).

Would I be correct in thinking the testing will be mainly the new parts. No advantage in retesting what is same as 802, 805s etc.

 

[QSK19]

Would I be correct in thinking the testing will be mainly the new parts. No advantage in retesting what is same as 802, 805s etc.

The 810 has been described as a brand new product to the AT300 line (https://www.railwaygazette.com/uk/d...rs-aurora-a-new-hitachi-product/58240.article) in view of the significant differences between that the the 80x.

Therefore, whilst I would defer to people with more expertise (and stand corrected if necessary), introduction of the 810 requires a full slate of testing.

 

[SteveyBee131]

Would I be correct in thinking the testing will be mainly the new parts. No advantage in retesting what is same as 802, 805s etc.

The 810 has been described as a brand new product to the AT300 line (https://www.railwaygazette.com/uk/d...rs-aurora-a-new-hitachi-product/58240.article) in view of the significant differences between that the the 80x.

Therefore, whilst I would defer to people with more expertise (and stand corrected if necessary), introduction of the 810 requires a full slate of testing.

I know there's been 18 years of water under the bridge, so things could have changed, but I seem to remember what eventually became the Hull Trains 222/1s were originally set to be 223s. At the time they were being built, as there was essentially no difference between them and the Midland Mainline 222s, it was decided to classify them as 222/1s to reduce the amount of time and work needed to test and introduce them to service, compared to if they were a new class.

As mentioned already, the 810s are essentially a new train class, different enough from the 80x types before them to need testing etc to start from scratch.

 

[Mollman]

I think we need to remember that there will be different types of testing. The type acceptance work will generally be done at Old Dalby; mileage accumilation can be done anywhere but WCML is a favourite; testing will be needed on the MML in regards to clearances, signal interfeance etc.

 

[gingertom]

I would have thought the ECML favourite for testing as they are being built at Newton Aycliffe... if paths could be found.