Hydrogen is not the panacea

[Trainbike46]

If hydrogen could be produced using 100% green energy by small low cost plants it would be viable despite the low efficiency. Then for e.g. West Highland, North of Scotland, Aberdeen <> Inverness, Cumbrian Coast, west of Shrewsbury a train would need to carry enough plus a reserve for the end-to-end journey. On arrival it would be refilled from the hydrogen plant for the next journey.

based on the Scottish plans, the far north and west highland lines will probably go hydrogen, which given the very low traffic numbers and long distances probably makes sense. It's just that hydrogen being potentially suitable for the 2 lowest frequency long lines in the whole country doesn't mean it's suitable for the vast majority of lines

 

[GRALISTAIR]

New Hydrogen Research Reminds Us Humanity Just Can't Win With Fuel Alternatives - Jalopnik

There is no perfect energy source, nothing that will power our vehicles without some kind of catch. Consider hydrogen. For decades it’s been propped up as a worthy alternative to oil, even if infrastructure-related hiccups seem to always hold it back from reaching its full potential...

jalopnik.com

There is no perfect energy source, nothing that will power our vehicles without some kind of catch. Consider hydrogen. For decades it’s been propped up as a worthy alternative to oil, even if infrastructure-related hiccups seem to always hold it back from reaching its full potential. Nevertheless, there seems to be a bit of space left for hydrogen-powered vehicles even in a battery electric-dominated world. But new research indicates that hydrogen buildup could have adverse effects on the climate, not terribly unlike the fuel it’s meant to replace.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

New Hydrogen Research Reminds Us Humanity Just Can't Win With Fuel Alternatives - Jalopnik

There is no perfect energy source, nothing that will power our vehicles without some kind of catch. Consider hydrogen. For decades it’s been propped up as a worthy alternative to oil, even if infrastructure-related hiccups seem to always hold it back from reaching its full potential...

jalopnik.com

Interesting and of course ultimately the human race is the problem for the planet!

 

[Yew]

If the hydrogen is Burned, it will form water, so there won't be hydrogen build up?


I must admit that this thread seems to collect lots of stories from bizarre environmental zealots, who seem obsessed with the idea that making sacrifices (and posting them on social media) is much more important than actual science.

 

[Energy]

If the hydrogen is Burned, it will form water, so there won't be hydrogen build up?

It forms water vapour, building up water vapour in the atmosphere isn't ideal.

I must admit that this thread seems to collect lots of stories from bizarre environmental zealots, who seem obsessed with the idea that making sacrifices (and posting them on social media) is much more important than actual science.

Most of it is pointing out the flaws in using hydrogen for heating or transport.

 

[Trainbike46]

If the hydrogen is Burned, it will form water, so there won't be hydrogen build up?


I must admit that this thread seems to collect lots of stories from bizarre environmental zealots, who seem obsessed with the idea that making sacrifices (and posting them on social media) is much more important than actual science.

You must have been reading a different thread than me!

Most of it is pointing out the flaws in using hydrogen for heating or transport.

and a lot of those reason are technical or economic

For example, how using hydrogen to power a train uses way more energy than electrification or battery EMUs, leading inevitably to higher costs

or how hydrogen is rather hard to store, due to the small size of hydrogen molecules it is capable of leaking through (almost) everything, albeit slowly

 

[Yew]

It forms water vapour, building up water vapour in the atmosphere isn't ideal.

I have some bad news for you about clouds…

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Apr 2023 ==

For example, how using hydrogen to power a train uses way more energy than electrification or battery EMUs, leading inevitably to higher costs

How long does it take to recharge these battery powered trains? There are certainly trade offs, but thermodynamic efficiency is much less of an issue with the clean energy of the future.

 

[JamesT]

and a lot of those reason are technical or economic

For example, how using hydrogen to power a train uses way more energy than electrification or battery EMUs, leading inevitably to higher costs

or how hydrogen is rather hard to store, due to the small size of hydrogen molecules it is capable of leaking through (almost) everything, albeit slowly

Though if you're producing the energy for your batteries or hydrogen from renewable sources in the periods where you're producing too much for the grid to handle, does the efficiency matter as much? In some ways it's free energy.
The big advantage of hydrogen is energy density. Even with the need for robust tanks, we're talking orders of magnitude better than lithium batteries can ever achieve. So for a long-range train where you can't charge batteries frequently, the hydrogen train would likely be lighter with all the advantages that provides.

 

[Energy]

I have some bad news for you about clouds…

Probably should have been clearer. Some is fine, adding 1.4 billion cars can make a noticeable impact.

 

[Class 317]

Surely the key thing with escooters and related per electric transport should be that they need regulations in safety and design along with regulations on use limiting top speeds on roads and pavement with appropriate abilities to enforce against bad behaviour.

They are one of the most energy efficient means to travel on journeys up to about 5 miles and would increase the attractiveness of public transport.

On another note my friend has registered his escooter as a road legal mobility scooter with the DVLA. He finds it easier to take on many journeys than his traditional design mobility scooter being lighter and easier to store etc. If he is or anyone else in the same situation is refused travel on a train the company involved could face a case for a discrimination case on disability grounds.

 

[Meerkat]

They are one of the most energy efficient means to travel on journeys up to about 5 miles and would increase the attractiveness of public transport.

From observation those using escooters round here are replacing walking, cycling, or buses. So probably making buses less viable and using more carbon (plus nasty battery stuff)

 

[zwk500]

From observation those using escooters round here are replacing walking, cycling, or buses. So probably making buses less viable and using more carbon (plus nasty battery stuff)

Although from anecdotal evidence e-scooters (and to a lesser extent e-bikes) are making people consider train for journeys that they normally wouldn't because 1. It's too far to walk 2. They don't want to get sweaty cycling or have their bike stolen and 3. the local bus service is pants.
I have seen one anecdote on these boards about somebody who used to drive to the station and now has an e-scooter. I have a former colleague who said they used to have to get multiple busses to work but with the e-bike they could get to the station, which was quicker and cheaper for them (work has a rail season ticket scheme but not a bus one) door-to-door. So overall many benefits and net zero or negative carbon. I admit it's a rather limited sample.

 

[AM9]

On another note my friend has registered his escooter as a road legal mobility scooter with the DVLA. He finds it easier to take on many journeys than his traditional design mobility scooter being lighter and easier to store etc. If he is or anyone else in the same situation is refused travel on a train the company involved could face a case for a discrimination case on disability grounds.

Only if the vehicle meets all the safety criteria for carriage on board trains, (which would apply equally to a mobility scooter).

 

[Yew]

Probably should have been clearer. Some is fine, adding 1.4 billion cars can make a noticeable impact.

Define noticeable?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Apr 2023 ==

Surely the key thing with escooters and related per electric transport should be that they need regulations in safety and design along with regulations on use limiting top speeds on roads and pavement with appropriate abilities to enforce against bad behaviour.

They are one of the most energy efficient means to travel on journeys up to about 5 miles and would increase the attractiveness of public transport.

On another note my friend has registered his escooter as a road legal mobility scooter with the DVLA. He finds it easier to take on many journeys than his traditional design mobility scooter being lighter and easier to store etc. If he is or anyone else in the same situation is refused travel on a train the company involved could face a case for a discrimination case on disability grounds.

It does seem like we've ended up in this bizarre situation where E scooters are designed to go on pavements, so have speed limits; but have been banned from pavements, yet still have these speed limits.

I don't mind either speed-restricted E-scooters that are allowed on pavements, or (less/unrestricted) e-scooters that are considered comparable to electric mopeds, the situation we are presently in is very poor.

 

[Meerkat]

It does seem like we've ended up in this bizarre situation where E scooters are designed to go on pavements, so have speed limits

Are you sure that is why they have speed limits? Electric bikes and mopeds have speed limits despite not being allowed on pavements.
escooters are too dangerous for the pavement or the road.

 

[Yew]

Are you sure that is why they have speed limits? Electric bikes and mopeds have speed limits despite not being allowed on pavements.
escooters are too dangerous for the pavement or the road.

If there was not an attempt to get them accepted on pavements, then they would be subject to the same limits as Mopeds.

Instead we end up in this bizarre situation where in the centre of Nottingham, E scooters are limited to 5mph, and also banned from the pavements. Whilst I'm supportive of the prototype schemes, they do seem to have overly pandered to a specific type of vocal luddite to hobble an otherwise useful transport solution.