Can TOCs do contactless revenue inspections yet?

[ChewChewTrain]

GWR service just now. Not sure what flavour of inspector he was (I don’t like to peer too obviously at people’s badges), but when I produced my contactless card and said I’d touched in (which I had!), he produced a yellow machine and appeared to scan my card with it.

I seem to recall that a while ago, a GWR RPI on this forum said he sometimes pretends to scan people’s cards to see how they react. Was this what happened here, or has the ability to inspect contactless cards now been rolled out beyond TfL?

(If it was the RPI from this forum, it was nice to meet you! You were very patient in explaining the refund process for forgotten Railcards to that other passenger, many, many times…)

 

[Watershed]

If they have the right equipment, they can scan contactless cards/devices to determine whether or not they are blocked. However, as with TfL inspectors, they can't tell whether or not a card/device is touched in at that moment in time.

A record of their inspection is, however, sent to TfL's back office system at the end of the RPI's shift. That, in turn, imposes a maximum fare on the relevant card/device and blocks it after the third 'not touched in' inspection.

 

[ChewChewTrain]

Thanks; I should have made it clear that I knew about what TfL RPIs could and couldn’t do when inspecting contactless cards. But not long ago, a RPI from GWR said (in a somewhat frustrated tone, IIRC) that TfL hadn’t yet let anyone from his or other TOCs get their hands on the machines that would allow them to do likewise. Are such machines yellow?

If they are now in operation everywhere that contactless is permitted, then it’s not before time.

 

[TEW]

Some TOCs have had the ability to inspect Oyster and Contacless Payment Cards for some time. A new updated device for carrying out the inspections was rolled out last year and there are more of them available, so the ability to do so is now more widespread.

 

[JonathanH]

How far off is being able to interrogate the system to see where the Contactless card was touched in?

It doesn't really seem like something which should be difficult to do, given passengers can look up their journey history fairly soon after touching in, and it would be the obvious next step in revenue protection, particularly with Project Oval proving fresh impetus for development.

 

[Watershed]

How far off is being able to interrogate the system to see where the Contactless card was touched in?

It doesn't really seem like something which should be difficult to do, given passengers can look up their journey history fairly soon after touching in, and it would be the obvious next step in revenue protection, particularly with Project Oval proving fresh impetus for development.

It's never going to be possible to definitively know on the spot that a card wasn't touched in, given the possibility of delays in transmitting the data to the back office.

 

[N0G83]

GWR service just now. Not sure what flavour of inspector he was (I don’t like to peer too obviously at people’s badges), but when I produced my contactless card and said I’d touched in (which I had!), he produced a yellow machine and appeared to scan my card with it.

I seem to recall that a while ago, a GWR RPI on this forum said he sometimes pretends to scan people’s cards to see how they react. Was this what happened here, or has the ability to inspect contactless cards now been rolled out beyond TfL?

(If it was the RPI from this forum, it was nice to meet you! You were very patient in explaining the refund process for forgotten Railcards to that other passenger, many, many times…)

The Yellow body to the (mobile) device is a skin cover.

 

[Hadders]

I was chatting to a GTR RPI on a train earlier this morning and they told me that they have equipment to scan contactless cards.

 

[johncrossley]

It's never going to be possible to definitively know on the spot that a card wasn't touched in, given the possibility of delays in transmitting the data to the back office.

According to the thread on the similar Dutch OV-Pay system which has recently started, there is an assumption there that information on contactless touch ins is always up-to-date.

 

[jon0844]

According to the thread on the similar Dutch OV-Pay system which has recently started, there is an assumption there that information on contactless touch ins is always up-to-date.

There would be a lot of data to transmit to every device and for what purpose? If the card is blacklisted then that data is important and should be sent to the device - but otherwise it will be a maximum cash fare applied later (with the risk of being blocked depending on the previous history), or no issue at all for someone who did tap in correctly. The back end will effectively impose the 'fine' and the staff member can just move on to the next person.

When every railway line, above and below, ground has perfect low-latency 5G standalone data, maybe it will be deemed worthwhile but I am not sure the need given the current system seems fine at protecting revenue.

 

[MikeWh]

How far off is being able to interrogate the system to see where the Contactless card was touched in?

It doesn't really seem like something which should be difficult to do, given passengers can look up their journey history fairly soon after touching in, and it would be the obvious next step in revenue protection, particularly with Project Oval proving fresh impetus for development.

There would be a lot of data to transmit to every device and for what purpose? If the card is blacklisted then that data is important and should be sent to the device - but otherwise it will be a maximum cash fare applied later (with the risk of being blocked depending on the previous history), or no issue at all for someone who did tap in correctly. The back end will effectively impose the 'fine' and the staff member can just move on to the next person.

When every railway line, above and below, ground has perfect low-latency 5G standalone data, maybe it will be deemed worthwhile but I am not sure the need given the current system seems fine at protecting revenue.

Unless you can guarantee that every case where a person is wrongly PFd/charged etc will be rectified with plentiful compensation then it cannot happen. It wasn't that long ago that building works at Kidbrooke station resulted in no data being sent to the central system for several weeks. The equipment at the station was working fine and when the data connection was re-established the stored data was all transmitted and everyones journey histories got updated retrospectively.

And before you say it, I know Kidbrooke was extreme (but it did happen) but temporary data issues are a regular occurence.

 

[johncrossley]

There would be a lot of data to transmit to every device and for what purpose? If the card is blacklisted then that data is important and should be sent to the device - but otherwise it will be a maximum cash fare applied later (with the risk of being blocked depending on the previous history), or no issue at all for someone who did tap in correctly. The back end will effectively impose the 'fine' and the staff member can just move on to the next person.

When every railway line, above and below, ground has perfect low-latency 5G standalone data, maybe it will be deemed worthwhile but I am not sure the need given the current system seems fine at protecting revenue.

The implication on the OV-Pay thread is that there is no difference between being caught not having touched in by traditional smartcard or by contactless payment card. Therefore (I guess) you would be treated the same as someone who didn't touch in with their smartcard and face an on the spot penalty fare.

I can't see any reference to a TfL style maximum fare on the OV Pay website.

Yes, the system is live and ticket inspectors are able to see that you're checked in.
Actually this was the main challenge for the bus operators as the chipcard system on buses was never online and just transferred data via wifi at the depot. A live system was required for the checks with the banks for sufficient credit and for example if the card is blocked.

At NS the system has always been live as poles and gates on stations are wired to the backend systems. That's why NS transactions show up immediately after touching out in the travel history, even with an OV-chipcard.

 

[jon0844]

Unless you can guarantee that every case where a person is wrongly PFd/charged etc will be rectified with plentiful compensation then it cannot happen. It wasn't that long ago that building works at Kidbrooke station resulted in no data being sent to the central system for several weeks. The equipment at the station was working fine and when the data connection was re-established the stored data was all transmitted and everyones journey histories got updated retrospectively.

And before you say it, I know Kidbrooke was extreme (but it did happen) but temporary data issues are a regular occurence.

Many stations that got contactless on the gates/pods had issues as TfL required its own secure connection separate to what the TOC used - and some stations had many days, if not weeks, of untransmitted data. I wonder if the same will happen with the new stations getting added in as part of Project Oval?

Because of the way TfL does things, the benefit of the doubt can be given on the train or at a station and the punishment worked out overnight. It is quite a good - and quick from the POV of the passenger host - system and I don't see it changing, especially for the reason I already mentioned - not having 100% contiguous and reliable data connectivity above and below ground.

That will change, but whether TfL changes its system remains to be seen.

 

[johncrossley]

Frequently asked questions - OVpay.nl

Read the frequently asked questions

ovpay.nl

What to do when I'm asked if I have checked in?

If you are being checked by a controller, briefly hold your debit card on the device. This will only show your last few check ins. Your bank details will not be visible

is further evidence that inspectors in the Netherlands check whether you have touched in with the contactless card.

 

[ChewChewTrain]

For the record, my Journey History for yesterday has now appeared and no Revenue Inspection is showing. Presumably it could be that the RPI’s device hasn’t uploaded its data yet. I’ll post again if the situation changes.

 

[Bensonby]

On a similar note, I was on a Thameslink train a few years ago when they did an on-board ticket check (the only one I’ve seen in years as it happens). I have a Police ITSO smart card and just held out my wallet for the card reader she had. I don’t know what was on her screen when I touched it, but she raised her eyebrows and asked “what type of card is that”? I showed her the card and my warrant card and that was that. To this day, I wondered what it showed up as and what normal bank cards/Oyster cards show up as.

 

[Doubleplus]

There would be a lot of data to transmit to every device and for what purpose?

For the purpose of allowing RPIs to swiftly and accurately confirm the passengers’ good standing and possession of a valid touched-in card. You wouldn’t send details of every single contactless tap-in to every single device anyway, just do a real-time lookup on a central database.

 

[MikeWh]

You wouldn’t send details of every single contactless tap-in to every single device anyway, just do a real-time lookup on a central database.

Until you can guarantee that the database will have all the relevant taps this can't happen. Right now if I touch in at a station it will be about 5 minutes until the tap will show on my live journey history. What happens if an RPI asks to check my card before the touch is registered?

 

[Cdd89]

Until you can guarantee that the database will have all the relevant taps this can't happen

Tbh I don’t see why TfL can’t guarantee this. It may be a little late with the current system design, but it’s certainly not impossible to design a system where someone is not treated as touched in (and doesn’t get the acknowledgment beep / gates opening) until the database is confirmed as updated, which should take a fraction of a second. (The term for such principles of database and system integrity is ACID).

 

[Adam Williams]

You're not wrong, @Cdd89, but there needs to be a culture change really towards ensuring these gatelines continuously have connectivity (perhaps some sort of heartbeat), that touch-ins don't open the gate until the status is properly persisted and that the status of gateline connectivity is reported back in realtime to both RPIs and a team monitoring the kit. This would require investment, so it probably won't happen anytime soon.

 

[MikeWh]

Tbh I don’t see why TfL can’t guarantee this. It may be a little late with the current system design, but it’s certainly not impossible to design a system where someone is not treated as touched in (and doesn’t get the acknowledgment beep / gates opening) until the database is confirmed as updated, which should take a fraction of a second. (The term for such principles of database and system integrity is ACID).

Picture a central London Underground Station at 5pm and something goes wrong with the data link? Contactless transactions already take a fraction of a second longer than Oyster to process. Another fraction of a second and you'll probably start to get serious queueing.

 

[Adam Williams]

Picture a central London Underground Station at 5pm and something goes wrong with the data link? Contactless transactions already take a fraction of a second longer than Oyster to process. Another fraction of a second and you'll probably start to get serious queueing.

Good incentive to do the engineering properly and provide redundancy in terms of connectivity then, really.

If connectivity problems = a moratorium on issuing PFs and all gatelines automatically opening in the affected station, you can bet that incidents like Kidbrooke being offline for weeks wouldn't be allowed to happen.

 

[jon0844]

This is a good discussion, but I ask again - why do we need to do this? The RPI doesn't need to know on the spot as once s/he has scanned the card, technology steps in to work things out later (could be a few seconds, could be 24 hours). In any case, the card owner will be dealt with.

It actually reduces the chance of conflict for the staff member who can quickly move on to the next person.

 

[MikeWh]

This is a good discussion, but I ask again - why do we need to do this? The RPI doesn't need to know on the spot as once s/he has scanned the card, technology steps in to work things out later (could be a few seconds, could be 24 hours). In any case, the card owner will be dealt with.

It actually reduces the chance of conflict for the staff member who can quickly move on to the next person.

I agree. Trouble is that the TOCs would prefer to get their full pound of flesh.

 

[johncrossley]

This is a good discussion, but I ask again - why do we need to do this?

It could enable contactless to be rolled out to a wider area. If you enable contactless for journeys costing £50 one way, for example, there would be potential for huge revenue loss if inspections are infrequent if you only charge a maximum fare after an inspection. So TOCs won't allow contactless for such journeys as it is too risky for them. With the Dutch system, it is no more risky for the TOC compared to passengers using traditional tickets or e-tickets.

 

[Wallsendmag]

It could enable contactless to be rolled out to a wider area. If you enable contactless for journeys costing £50 one way, for example, there would be potential for huge revenue loss if inspections are infrequent if you only charge a maximum fare after an inspection. So TOCs won't allow contactless for such journeys as it is too risky for them. With the Dutch system, it is no more risky for the TOC compared to passengers using traditional tickets or e-tickets.

Well Brighton to Stevenage is coming and that’s the best part of £50

 

[johncrossley]

Well Brighton to Stevenage is coming and that’s the best part of £50

Is it? I thought they weren't going beyond Gatwick.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Is it? I thought they weren't going beyond Gatwick.

I'd guess that's probably on keyGo rather than as part of Project Oval.

 

[RPI]

The TOC'S have now been issued with a limited number of Revenue Inspection Devices (RID'S), though obviously not enough for every guard, RPI'S and Ticket Examiners have them at East depots of GWR, we've got a couple of devices at Exeter as we have three Ticket Examiner diagrams to London on weekdays and an RPI can take one if going to London.

 

[johncrossley]

I'd guess that's probably on keyGo rather than as part of Project Oval.

You can already go from Brighton to Stevenage on KeyGo. In fact, you can go from Warblington to Huntingdon.