Can TOCs do contactless revenue inspections yet?

[jon0844]

It could enable contactless to be rolled out to a wider area. If you enable contactless for journeys costing £50 one way, for example, there would be potential for huge revenue loss if inspections are infrequent if you only charge a maximum fare after an inspection. So TOCs won't allow contactless for such journeys as it is too risky for them. With the Dutch system, it is no more risky for the TOC compared to passengers using traditional tickets or e-tickets.

That's a fair point, but the current system is integrating with today's infrastructure. If they want people to tap in to go London to Inverness, they'll have to reconsider how to do it.

I don't know why it takes a long time to transmit the gateline data, but it does - whether over a wired connection or a mobile data one (some gates had TfL using an LTE router to send data until the systems could be linked).

In theory, both could be real-time but my guess is they send packets of data periodically.

Never say never, but there would clearly be a big cost. I'm sure Cubic would gladly take the money, but who pays? (Cubic is presumably happy right now with all the barcode readers being installed).

The current system works okay IMO.

 

[Benjwri]

It could enable contactless to be rolled out to a wider area. If you enable contactless for journeys costing £50 one way, for example, there would be potential for huge revenue loss if inspections are infrequent if you only charge a maximum fare after an inspection. So TOCs won't allow contactless for such journeys as it is too risky for them. With the Dutch system, it is no more risky for the TOC compared to passengers using traditional tickets or e-tickets.

I'm confused how it is any more risky on contactless vs traditional tickets? If inspections are infrequent there is still the same revenue loss from traditional ticketing, since they don't get brought up on their lack of a ticket. As far as I can see there is the same risk between traditional tickets and contactless. The only difference I with the Dutch system there is a confrontation, rather than the fee being charged automatically. To be honest I think this is a better strategy, especially if the maximum charge was upped to similar to a penalty fare, there is less chance of staff confrontation, and it means innocent passengers, who may have been affected by an issue which would be corrected by the back office, aren't made to feel like criminals and reported for prosecution.

 

[jon0844]

I think the majority of fare evaders are now using e-tickets and thinking they're being clever by short faring to use a get in or out via a gate, or buying a ticket at the moment they see staff or a closed gate.

Clearly some are noticing that having a digital audit trail isn't working out so well once caught.

I'm not sure how many people checked with a RID are later found not to have tapped in. Unlike with an e-ticket, you are taking a risk because if you encounter staff there's nothing you can do. Except not present a card at all and hope for a PF, but that probably only worked when it was £20, not £50.

 

[johncrossley]

As far as I can see there is the same risk between traditional tickets and contactless.

The difference is you can only charge a maximum fare, not a penalty fare (or worse). Yes, if you make the maximum fare very high then you might as well stick with the current system, but that might not be possible.

 

[jon0844]

As I said, if you want to chance not tapping in then there's a big risk - which increases the further you go. Most people will be trying to fiddle with paper tickets and short faring, or buying an e-ticket and trying one of many tricks associated with them (gradually becoming less successful every day).

If you do try, £50 is quite a hit but the real punishment is your card being blocked. If you're stopped and that's detected then you're likely looking at an MG.

 

[njamescouk]

Frequently asked questions - OVpay.nl

Read the frequently asked questions

ovpay.nl

is further evidence that inspectors in the Netherlands check whether you have touched in with the contactless card.

how does a debit card keep a record of touch ins?

 

[johncrossley]

how does a debit card keep a record of touch ins?

It doesn't. See earlier discussion in this thread. The inspector gets information about touch ins for that card over the mobile phone network.

 

[jon0844]

It doesn't. See earlier discussion in this thread. The inspector gets information about touch ins for that card over the mobile phone network.

How long do you make someone wait when the device has no data connection, due to a tunnel or cutting? We do not have 100% phone coverage. Sure, there are active plans to improve this and perhaps one day achieve near enough 100% of the railway - but we have slipped behind, not least because the UK Government decided to make the carriers spend BILLIONS ripping out Huawei infrastructure (much of it 5G enabled or 5G capable) and replacing with Nokia or Ericsson kit - with the end result being the networks using Huawei kit have all slipped behind their schedules because of this unnecessary work.

Worse still, EE and others are having problems integrating these new replacement sites within existing network kit from other vendors causing many system failures either on a local or wider scale.

This might sound off topic, but it isn't really if we're proposing all staff and gates are going to be offering instantaneous sharing and look-up of data. No UK network has yet turned on standalone 5G and even when they do, it's going to be very localised for a long time - and that's the sort of low-latency network you need to avoid any delays.

 

[matt_world2004]

I've had touchins not show on my record for weeks so the system isn't reliable enough to do a live journey history

 

[plugwash]

Tbh I don’t see why TfL can’t guarantee this. It may be a little late with the current system design, but it’s certainly not impossible to design a system where someone is not treated as touched in (and doesn’t get the acknowledgment beep / gates opening) until the database is confirmed as updated, which should take a fraction of a second. (The term for such principles of database and system integrity is ACID).

Yeah It *should* take a fraction of a second, but **** happens. Networks break, servers break, databases break. So you have to plan for what happens when the central service fails to respond in the expected "fraction of a second". If you block entry to the system you have a hoard of angry passengers, if you let the passengers in then you have passengers in the system whose touches are not recorded in the central DB.

That means that the system needs to carefully monitor the status of every barrier/validator so that if/when a barrier "drops of the system" the system can switch to a degraded operating mode until the barrier has come back on-line and synced with the system.

 

[johncrossley]

How long do you make someone wait when the device has no data connection, due to a tunnel or cutting? We do not have 100% phone coverage.

Presumably the infrastructure is already sufficiently robust in the Netherlands. @DanielB Do you know what happens when there is no mobile signal? Maybe if there is no signal then you don't do the check.

 

[Benjwri]

Presumably the infrastructure is already sufficiently robust in the Netherlands. @DanielB Do you know what happens when there is no mobile signal? Maybe if there is no signal then you don't do the check.

The Netherlands is significantly flatter than the UK. Therefore there are far fewer tunnels and mobile signal black spots.

 

[johncrossley]

The Netherlands is significantly flatter than the UK. Therefore there are far fewer tunnels and mobile signal black spots.

Switzerland is significantly hillier than the UK but has mostly good reception on trains, including tunnels. If they didn't install 4G in tunnels mobile phones would not be much use on trains in Switzerland.

 

[Chriso]

Just had a ticket check between Waterloo and Woking and the guard had a yellow contactless phone case.

I spoke to him once his duties were finished and he said they generally worked well unless the card was in a bad state