Class 230 units training/introduction on the Borderlands line: updates

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If, in your eyes, the TfW 230s are tarred by one week in service, then I struggle to see what alternative the Class 197s (which themselves are reported to have exhibited similar teething troubles) could provide at this time.

I think that a little research on your part will reveal to you that the Vivarail units on the Marston Vale line ran for a tad longer in service than a week and that was the point that I was endeavoring to get across.

 

[D821]

006 still had the paint on it yesterday morning.

 

[tomuk]

Depends on who's doing [or paying for] the feasibility study!

It could well be argued that as this is a TfW service, with TfW stock, it should prioritise the Welsh stations.

Taking that starting point, it's easy enough to argue:

1. Upton doesn't need a train service, it has a bus every 10 mins to/from Liverpool that passes the station.

2. Whilst Heswall [Hills] (the clue is in its former name - it's actually nowhere near the centre of Heswall, which already has a frequent - if rather slow - bus service to Birkenhead and Liverpool) ... could do with better than its present hourly bus service, that's easily rectified - just double the frequency (i.e. add another Solo to the mix) and tweak the route to connect with Merseyrail at Bebington, Port Sunlight or Spital. Then you'd have a half hourly service to/from Heswall centre, connecting with Merseyrail's ultra frequent services somewhere on the Liverpool - Chester/Ellesmere Port corridor.

3. Neston doesn't need the train at all - the good folks of this ex Mining village have a half hourly bus service to/from Liverpool and an hourly one to/from Chester and the Wirral Coast.

They're TfW units, and Cardiff should therefore prioritise stations in Wales - i.e. all the other ones. By omitting the aforementioned English shacks, the end to end time of an hour becomes easy.


However, I suspect Merseytravel, the Wrexham-Bidston Rail Users Association, and many members of this forum might have a rather different view.

Looking at the passenger numbers:

        Station    2019-2020
*    BID    Bidston     398,678
     UPT    Upton (Merseyside)     22,502
     HSW    Heswall     99,136
     NES    Neston     42,554
*    SHT    Shotton     200,402
     HWB    Hawarden Bridge     2,674
     HWD    Hawarden     32,204
     BCK    Buckley     41,874
     PNF    Penyffordd     22,778
     HPE    Hope (Flintshire)     20,366
     CGW    Caergwrle     15,914
     CYB    Cefn-Y-Bedd     6,954
     GWE    Gwersyllt     22,468
*    WRX    Wrexham General     501,800
     WXC    Wrexham Central     73,484

I really don't understand why the line is lavished such attention.

 

[DLAYKEGER]

Looking at the passenger numbers:

        Station    2019-2020
*    BID    Bidston     398,678
     UPT    Upton (Merseyside)     22,502
     HSW    Heswall     99,136
     NES    Neston     42,554
*    SHT    Shotton     200,402
     HWB    Hawarden Bridge     2,674
     HWD    Hawarden     32,204
     BCK    Buckley     41,874
     PNF    Penyffordd     22,778
     HPE    Hope (Flintshire)     20,366
     CGW    Caergwrle     15,914
     CYB    Cefn-Y-Bedd     6,954
     GWE    Gwersyllt     22,468
*    WRX    Wrexham General     501,800
     WXC    Wrexham Central     73,484

I really don't understand why the line is lavished such attention.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Apr 2023 ==

Because we.are important and have had a rubbish service for years

 

[Bikeman78]

The slow doors were one of the reasons TfL were keen to get rid of them (and the 1983 stock) in the first place. The single-leaf doors were bigger than standard Tube doors, and therefore took longer to close, but because the aperture was not as big as a standard double-leaf one, boarding and alighting took longer. Both resulted in a longer dwell time.

I don't know if the door engines on the 230s are the original D stock ones, but there is a limit as to how fast a door should be allowed to move safely.

They lasted over 35 years on TfL so I think they can reasonably be considered a success. The doors were powered by air on D stock. You can hear the air hissing a second before the doors start to move. Not sure if the same applies on the 230s.

 

[D365]

I think that a little research on your part will reveal to you that the Vivarail units on the Marston Vale line ran for a tad longer in service than a week and that was the point that I was endeavoring to get across.

As I said previously, the Vivarail variants are fundamentally different; both in concept and in their execution. But I will give it some time now to see how the TfW units perform.

 

[Bertie the bus]

If, in your eyes, the TfW 230s are tarred by one week in service, then I struggle to see what alternative the Class 197s (which themselves are reported to have exhibited similar teething troubles) could provide at this time.

They are 4 years late. Is 4 years not long enough to sort out the issues? 4 years late and managing to complete a day's service 2 days out of 4 and not even starting a service on the 5th day is not an indication of a good, or even usable, train. I know you have a real thing for them but you must be able to look beyond your rose tinted specs.

 

[12LDA28C]

Both tarred with the same Vivarail "innovative" brush.

By you, apparently so.

 

[tomuk]

They lasted over 35 years on TfL so I think they can reasonably be considered a success. The doors were powered by air on D stock. You can hear the air hissing a second before the doors start to move. Not sure if the same applies on the 230s.

The door engines on the 230s are the same air powered ones as fitted in their previous D78 life. They have however been modded for some sort of regulatory\PRM reason and now work the opposite to before that is they close slowly and slam shut on 230s whereas before the closed quickly and had a soft close on D78s.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Both tarred with the same Vivarail "innovative" brush.

There is not much "other " innovation to choose from in terms of trains on the railways. I like to think innovation should be given a chance - otherwise we would still be riding around behind locomotives similar to Stephenson's Rocket.

I think that a little research on your part will reveal to you that the Vivarail units on the Marston Vale line ran for a tad longer in service than a week and that was the point that I was endeavoring to get across.

Don't let the same class number fool you. These Borderlands 230s are rather different to the Marston Vale 230s which were solely powered direct from the diesel engines.

Also lets face it there is not a surplus of 150s etc to use an an alternative.

They are 4 years late. Is 4 years not long enough to sort out the issues? 4 years late and managing to complete a day's service 2 days out of 4 and not even starting a service on the 5th day is not an indication of a good, or even usable, train. I know you have a real thing for them but you must be able to look beyond your rose tinted specs.

I have been wondering. Was there a plan at this stage to run on non-working days (ie weekends and bank-holidays) or not ?

Moderator note: timetable discussion has been moved to the following thread:

Borderlands time keeping challenges

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/class-230-units-training-introduction-on-the-borderlands-line.191986/ Why on earth should prospective rail passengers in settlements with long-established railway stations be subject to inconvenience just because the type of rail...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Depends on who's doing [or paying for] the feasibility study!
It could well be argued that as this is a TfW service, with TfW stock, it should prioritise the Welsh stations.
Taking that starting point, it's easy enough to argue:
...
They're TfW units, and Cardiff should therefore prioritise stations in Wales - i.e. all the other ones. By omitting the aforementioned English shacks, the end to end time of an hour becomes easy.
However, I suspect Merseytravel, the Wrexham-Bidston Rail Users Association, and many members of this forum might have a rather different view.

It's Wales & Borders (it says so on the trains), and the operator (TfW) has as much responsibility for the English sections of the line as the Welsh.
In NR terms the whole line is in "England", as the England (NW&Central)/Wales route boundary is south of Ruabon and west of Shotton.
There is also a cross-border local government transport planning forum involving Cheshire West & Chester and Wirral as well as NE Wales (Flintshire/Wrexham), with interests along the whole line.

Not to mention that the Halton Curve was reinstated with "English" money (part of the Liverpool City Region funding) while benefitting Cheshire West and Wales.

 

[Chris125]

Ignoring the Island Line, which was just a continuation of LU units, both the Marston Vale line and this Borderlands line Vivarail projects have not given the American backing company of Vivarail enough confidence to carry on the financing of the "innovation" and it is that financial fact that tells more of a storyline that comments made supportive of Vivarail on an internet thread.

In what way are 484s a continuation of LU units? They are totally re-engineered following the same concept as the other 230s - just powered by a 3rd rail instead of diesel engines or batteries.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

Not to mention that the Halton Curve was reinstated with "English" money (part of the Liverpool City Region funding) while benefitting Cheshire West and Wales.

True - but that's not on the borderland line. It provides an direct rail route to Wrexham without the need to change at either Bidston or Chester.

In a way that strengthens your point though. When the Liverpool- Wrexham and north Wales coast services are properly up and running it will be even clearer that Wxm - Bidston is a secondary route for local connectivity.

 

[L401CJF]

Looking at the passenger numbers:

        Station    2019-2020
*    BID    Bidston     398,678
     UPT    Upton (Merseyside)     22,502
     HSW    Heswall     99,136
     NES    Neston     42,554
*    SHT    Shotton     200,402
     HWB    Hawarden Bridge     2,674
     HWD    Hawarden     32,204
     BCK    Buckley     41,874
     PNF    Penyffordd     22,778
     HPE    Hope (Flintshire)     20,366
     CGW    Caergwrle     15,914
     CYB    Cefn-Y-Bedd     6,954
     GWE    Gwersyllt     22,468
*    WRX    Wrexham General     501,800
     WXC    Wrexham Central     73,484

I really don't understand why the line is lavished such attention.

Is this data taken from ticket sales figures? If so they won't be that accurate given only a few stations have ticket facilities, the rest are reliant on the conductor getting through the train and there is very much an avoid to pay at all costs mentality on this line.

To the best of my knowledge -
WXC - Card only TVM
WRX - Booking office and TVM
SHT - Booking office but limited hours and card only TVM
BID - Booking office open for full service hours

Off the top of my head I can't remember which others if any have card only TVMs installed.

Of course in theory the conductor should issue "zero fare" tickets to record WAG concession passes, but there are a hell of a lot of unrecorded journeys involving Merseytravel Concessionary passes and Trio passes etc from Heswall/Upton/Bidston.

For the shorter distance between the stops at the Wrexham end (between Hope and Wrexham) it isn't always possible to get to even half of those boarding because the guard is straight to the doors after selling one ticket half the time.

There is certainly potential for good revenue and good loadings on this line if the right level of service is provided.

 

[CaergwrleKen]

Is this data taken from ticket sales figures? If so they won't be that accurate given only a few stations have ticket facilities, the rest are reliant on the conductor getting through the train and there is very much an avoid to pay at all costs mentality on this line.

To the best of my knowledge -
WXC - Card only TVM
WRX - Booking office and TVM
SHT - Booking office but limited hours and card only TVM
BID - Booking office open for full service hours

Off the top of my head I can't remember which others if any have card only TVMs installed.

Of course in theory the conductor should issue "zero fare" tickets to record WAG concession passes, but there are a hell of a lot of unrecorded journeys involving Merseytravel Concessionary passes and Trio passes etc from Heswall/Upton/Bidston.

For the shorter distance between the stops at the Wrexham end (between Hope and Wrexham) it isn't always possible to get to even half of those boarding because the guard is straight to the doors after selling one ticket half the time.

There is certainly potential for good revenue and good loadings on this line if the right level of service is provided.

Indeed. Just a quick glance at the passengers figures for Upton and Gwersyllt shows a massive anomaly.

Gwersyllt is a far busier station but suffers from a huge dose of fare paying avoidance partly due to the short distance not giving the guard time to get through the train from Wrexham but mainly due to the high amount of fare dodging despite the next to nothing fares.

 

[emoaconr]

Indeed. Just a quick glance at the passengers figures for Upton and Gwersyllt shows a massive anomaly.

Gwersyllt is a far busier station but suffers from a huge dose of fare paying avoidance partly due to the short distance not giving the guard time to get through the train from Wrexham but mainly due to the high amount of fare dodging despite the next to nothing fares.

Being a native of Gwersyllt, I concur.

I'd probably say upwards of 80% of my journeys between Gwersyllt and Wrexham, the guard was unable to sell tickets in time. Ditto when I used to commute between Gwersyllt and Hope. Vast majority of people knew this and some abused it. This was some years ago under ATW, mind. At the time it cost the princely sum of 45p single to Wrexham with my 16-25 Railcard.


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Apr 2023 ==

I thought Merseytravel Conc passes are only valid on the Merseyrail network.

No, the entirety of public transport in the Merseytravel network, regardless of operator. Bidston, Upton and Heswall are in Merseyside.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Apr 2023 ==

It's Wales & Borders (it says so on the trains), and the operator (TfW) has as much responsibility for the English sections of the line as the Welsh.
In NR terms the whole line is in "England", as the England (NW&Central)/Wales route boundary is south of Ruabon and west of Shotton.
There is also a cross-border local government transport planning forum involving Cheshire West & Chester and Wirral as well as NE Wales (Flintshire/Wrexham), with interests along the whole line.

Not to mention that the Halton Curve was reinstated with "English" money (part of the Liverpool City Region funding) while benefitting Cheshire West and Wales.

The 'Wales and Borders' thing is a fake brand to appease the DfT and its blue-white-red 'unionism'. It fulfils the regulatory loophole; it is Transport for Wales Rail Services Ltd, and everybody knows this.

WG was involved along with the LCRCA and DfT in restoring the Halton Curve.

 

[L401CJF]

Indeed. Just a quick glance at the passengers figures for Upton and Gwersyllt shows a massive anomaly.

Gwersyllt is a far busier station but suffers from a huge dose of fare paying avoidance partly due to the short distance not giving the guard time to get through the train from Wrexham but mainly due to the high amount of fare dodging despite the next to nothing fares.

Gwersylt immediately sprung to mind for me too. Its not uncommon to fill the train at Gwersylt heading into Wrexham, however only a couple of those will actually end up paying, the same applies in the other direction. The guard just doesnt have time to get through.

The same applies on the morning/afternoon school run to/from Hope, the train is full of school kids but most of them end up going free as the guard just cant get to them all.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Its not uncommon to fill the train at Gwersylt heading into Wrexham, however only a couple of those will actually end up paying, the same applies in the other direction. The guard just doesnt have time to get through.

How feasible would installing ticket barriers be?

Looks as if General has a big room that seems pretty good for fitting barriers in.

General seems to have a lot less space (although probably enough for RPIs to observe but for £1.60 (per caught passenger) it's probably not profitable.

 

[L401CJF]

Central is a lost cause for barriers with 1tph (soon to be 2 when the semi fast service comes in), that waiting room at Central has been locked up and isn't actually used anymore.

Revenue teams/TIL agency seem to be at General quite a lot lately but word soon spreads and anybody who doesn't want to pay will go to Central instead. Occasionally they have RPIs at one station and the TIL lot at the other which is quite effective.

Anyway, this is drifting off topic somewhat!

 

[childwallblues]

There is another entrance/exit at Wrexham General off the BID-WXM platform up a pathway to the overbridge.

 

[L401CJF]

Appears another 230 has been tagged. Possibly 007? Visible car number is 300107

 

[Krokodil]

Gwersyllt is a far busier station but suffers from a huge dose of fare paying avoidance partly due to the short distance not giving the guard time to get through the train from Wrexham but mainly due to the high amount of fare dodging despite the next to nothing fares.

Also a little in reverse, where passengers arrive in Wrexham to find a revenue block and claim to have come from Gwersyllt.

So there's another benefit to introducing a third unit (preferably with the service extended to Birkenhead or even the Liverpool loop), with 20 minutes in the platform at WXC, the guard can go through and ching them all.

 

[childwallblues]

Also a little in reverse, where passengers arrive in Wrexham to find a revenue block and claim to have come from Gwersyllt.

So there's another benefit to introducing a third unit (preferably with the service extended to Birkenhead or even the Liverpool loop), with 20 minutes in the platform at WXC, the guard can go through and ching them all.

An extra benefit of running through to Birkenhead North would be that Borderlands passengers could use New Brighton line services to/from Liverpool.

 

[Skie]

Looking at the passenger numbers:

        Station    2019-2020
*    BID    Bidston     398,678
     UPT    Upton (Merseyside)     22,502
     HSW    Heswall     99,136
     NES    Neston     42,554
*    SHT    Shotton     200,402
     HWB    Hawarden Bridge     2,674
     HWD    Hawarden     32,204
     BCK    Buckley     41,874
     PNF    Penyffordd     22,778
     HPE    Hope (Flintshire)     20,366
     CGW    Caergwrle     15,914
     CYB    Cefn-Y-Bedd     6,954
     GWE    Gwersyllt     22,468
*    WRX    Wrexham General     501,800
     WXC    Wrexham Central     73,484

I really don't understand why the line is lavished such attention.

Those are relatively healthy numbers for a slow hourly service, especially at the Liverpool end at Heswall and presumably a future woodchurch station. It’s very much a line where the phrase “if you build it, they will come” applies.

Anecdotally I have multiple colleagues in Liverpool who live within the catchment areas of stations along that line but who drive to a Merseyrail station instead, or drive all the way into the office.

And another who become a permanent home worker post lockdowns because it was much more convenient than continuing to suffer that journey. 30 minutes isn’t great, but it’s a damn sight better than hourly.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Apr 2023 ==

An extra benefit of running through to Birkenhead North would be that Borderlands passengers could use New Brighton line services to/from Liverpool.

I very much doubt thats it’s worth the expense to change the signalling if instead they can add a few more 777/1s to the fleet and deliver a service through Liverpool.

And considering TFW and the LCR are making a bid for funding to buy the trains to do this, the only infrastructure required will be for charging. Though it would be better to have P1 at Birkenhead North more useful in times of disruption.

 

[Foxcover]

Those are relatively healthy numbers for a slow hourly service, especially at the Liverpool end at Heswall and presumably a future woodchurch station. It’s very much a line where the phrase “if you build it, they will come” applies.

Anecdotally I have multiple colleagues in Liverpool who live within the catchment areas of stations along that line but who drive to a Merseyrail station instead, or drive all the way into the office.

Yes, most of west Wirral nowadays will drive to Merseyrail stations in preference to Borderlands stations for both leisure and commuting. Hopefully that will change as it improves.

Between TfW and Merseyrail they do need to sort out the ticketing though - not just for number counts, but because people get charged penalty fares at Liverpool stations when they couldn’t buy a ticket on the Bidston train and had no time at Bidston to buy a ticket because of the routine late running and the (scheduled) short liverpool connection (i know people who have had them)

 

[DLAYKEGER]

Yes, most of west Wirral nowadays will drive to Merseyrail stations in preference to Borderlands stations for both leisure and commuting. Hopefully that will change as it improves.

Between TfW and Merseyrail they do need to sort out the ticketing though - not just for number counts, but because people get charged penalty fares at Liverpool stations when they couldn’t buy a ticket on the Bidston train and had no time at Bidston to buy a ticket because of the routine late running and the (scheduled) short liverpool connection (i know people who have had them)

And we are seeing even more at the moment, Heswall passengers getting to Spital for the 7:05 train instead of the 7:06 Heswall to Bidston as TFW not running buses early enough to connect to Merseyrail to get passengers to Liverpool for 8am, plus you don't have to potentially wait up to 15mins for a connecting train to Liverpool

 

[shredder1]

Such a shame, I went yesterday to try to ride one, but it was bus replacement service, 3 on shed 006,007 and 010, nicely covered in graffitti.

 

[CaergwrleKen]

Getting back on topic, it’s packed in again this morning on its first trip

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Getting back on topic, it’s packed in again this morning on its first trip

No, it's still going, just reached Bidston 48 late.
Started 20 down and lost the rest before Penyffordd.
It's competing with the RRB for the slowest journey time Wrexham-Bidston.

Realtime Trains | 2F50 0732 Wrexham Central to Bidston | 10/04/2023

Real-time train running information for 2F50 0732 departure from Wrexham Central to Bidston on 10/04/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Pacef8]

Bbc wales says its rrb all day?