Class 230 units training/introduction on the Borderlands line: updates

[185143]

230 010 appears to be working the 1744 Wrexham General to Bidston, although running late again from Dee Marsh.
Was it pulled from service because it was well off the timetable by mid-afternoon, rather than because of a train fault?

Realtime Trains | 2F90 1742 Wrexham Central to Shotton | 03/04/2023

Real-time train running information for 2F90 1742 departure from Wrexham Central to Shotton on 03/04/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

It was purely due to the late running. I spoke to the driver, there was nothing wrong with the unit

 

[louis97]

Thank you for travelling with ATW - Alison

One tiny correction, this is Ruth. It sounds a little different as it would have been recorded at a different time to the rest of the Ruth used on the 175s.

 

[geoffk]

Thanks for explaining. I thought it was Ruth doing the full announcement including the 'we will shortly arriving at'.

At least you're not "arriving into".

 

[D365]

Hellfire. Well, literally. We've had half of Parkgate on fire last year, seems the rest of our green and pleasant Wirral is now also destined to be incinerated.

I assume you are writing with respect to the Class 230s - what does this mean?

 

[norbitonflyer]

It was purely due to the late running. I spoke to the driver, there was nothing wrong with the unit

But what caused the late running, if there was nothing wrong with the unit?

EDIT - just seen on RTT that the 1742 from Wrexham Central took 54 minutes to travel the less than 6 miles from Penyffordd to Shotton, where it was terminated at 1912 exactly 60 minutes late. (To be fair, it was due at Shotton at 1912, but going back the other way).

 

[Bald Rick]

It was purely due to the late running. I spoke to the driver, there was nothing wrong with the unit

in which case, either the driver has some explaining to do, or the unit can’t meet the Sectional Running Times that it was promised to…

 

[L401CJF]

But what caused the late running, if there was nothing wrong with the unit?

EDIT - just seen on RTT that the 1742 from Wrexham Central took 54 minutes to travel the less than 6 miles from Penyffordd to Shotton, where it was terminated at 1912 exactly 60 minutes late. (To be fair, it was due at Shotton at 1912, but going back the other way).

in which case, either the driver has some explaining to do, or the unit can’t meet the Sectional Running Times that it was promised to…

The crews have trainers/instructors out with them on new units for the first few weeks until people get used to working them. Dispatches will be slower while Guards get used to the stock, and driving will be slower while drivers get used to how they handle, brake performance etc and refine their driving on them.

I'd imagine changing ends will take longer as the drivers won't be used to setting up the cab yet, the turn around time is minimal as it is on that line.

I'd imagine performance will improve as staff get used to the stock.

If I remember rightly the doors are a bit slower than a 150 too which won't help. The units themselves accelerate much faster than the 150 stock.

 

[Krokodil]

in which case, either the driver has some explaining to do, or the unit can’t meet the Sectional Running Times that it was promised to…

It's perfectly normal for timekeeping to suffer when new traction is introduced.

That's aside from the fitter having to nurse the unit into Shotton before it limped back to Birkenhead depot of course...

 

[185143]

The crews have trainers/instructors out with them on new units for the first few weeks until people get used to working them. Dispatches will be slower while Guards get used to the stock, and driving will be slower while drivers get used to how they handle, brake performance etc and refine their driving on them.

I'd imagine changing ends will take longer as the drivers won't be used to setting up the cab yet, the turn around time is minimal as it is on that line.

I'd imagine performance will improve as staff get used to the stock.

If I remember rightly the doors are a bit slower than a 150 too which won't help. The units themselves accelerate much faster than the 150 stock.

The doors are painfully slow, plus let's not forget the turnaround times on this line are very tight at both ends.

Wasn't uncommon for 150s to terminate at Wrexham General.

 

[anthony263]

Any idea what the issue with 230010 is tonight?

 

[Bald Rick]

It's perfectly normal for timekeeping to suffer when new traction is introduced.

From reliability issues, yes - the bathtub curve - but not from staff ‘getting used’ to how the units work in normal operation. That’s what training is for. Certainly I don’t recall the 37x, 700, 80x, new Anglia fleet, etc etc suffer timekeeping issues when the units were working normally. Quite the opposite…

That's aside from the fitter having to nurse the unit into Shotton before it limped back to Birkenhead depot of course...

aha.

 

[185]

I assume you are writing with respect to the Class 230s - what does this mean?

1 July 2021, the staff testing these sets stopped and climbed out for an impromptu barbecue, inviting most engines from the local fire service to come join them.

 

[Bertie the bus]

TFW have done their best to destroy their commuter and leisure traveller base in the last month on the line, with regulars forced to drive to Merseyrail at Spital, Bromborough and Hooton (the nearest station to the Welsh station) when commuting in Liverpool direction. Not got a clue about how it effects the flows towards Wrexham. The bus take double the time (and its been reported sometime 3 times as long). I probably won't return until its back to an hourly train as bustiitution is a joke on the line.

Not rush hour, granted, but today I caught the bus from Bidston - Heswall for the train back. The bus took 17 minutes and the train 13, and the ride quality on the bus was probably superior.

 

[DLAYKEGER]

Not rush hour, granted, but today I caught the bus from Bidston - Heswall for the train back. The bus took 17 minutes and the train 13, and the ride quality on the bus was probably superior.

Yes some Pats coaches r as good. However 17 mins during school holidays is not that great especially if travelling Bidston bound.. In rush hour it would be 25-30mins and if Arrrowe Park Hospiral (a major univirsity teaching hospital) is kicking out it is even more, you then have probably missed your connection at Bidston, so add maybe 10mins for the next Merseyrail train, so that is 40mins from Heswall, just to join your connecting train, then your train from Bidston to Liverpool is probably 20min (60 min journey instead of say normal 40min journey. The alternative is Heswall to Spital by car approx 10mins, approx 20mins by train to Liverpool (30min journey). And 60 mins assumes you have clue what time the bus arrives at Heswall, meaning you could be standing in the rain for a while with no bus shelter.

 

[Krokodil]

From reliability issues, yes - the bathtub curve - but not from staff ‘getting used’ to how the units work in normal operation. That’s what training is for. Certainly I don’t recall the 37x, 700, 80x, new Anglia fleet, etc etc suffer timekeeping issues when the units were working normally. Quite the opposite…

Training and experience are very different things. It takes time to consolidate what you've learned. When 16x were transferred from the Thames Valley to the Severn Beach Line, timekeeping suffered for a while as the drivers drove them defensively until they got used to the new braking points. A 230 only just fits in some of the platforms on this line, unlike a 150 which has much more margin for error so drivers will inevitably be more cautious to avoid an overrun.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There was also a very slow TSR at Buckley I noticed.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

How bad was the graffiti to the unit that was made mention of earlier in this thread?

 

[norbitonflyer]

The doors are painfully slow, plus let's not forget the turnaround times on this line are very tight at both ends.

The slow doors were one of the reasons TfL were keen to get rid of them (and the 1983 stock) in the first place. The single-leaf doors were bigger than standard Tube doors, and therefore took longer to close, but because the aperture was not as big as a standard double-leaf one, boarding and alighting took longer. Both resulted in a longer dwell time.

I don't know if the door engines on the 230s are the original D stock ones, but there is a limit as to how fast a door should be allowed to move safely.

 

[Bertie the bus]

How bad was the graffiti to the unit that was made mention of earlier in this thread?

230006 Birkenhead North Depot (2)

Graffitied 230006 at Birkenhead North Depot on 03/04/23.

www.flickr.com

 

[Bletchleyite]

The slow doors were one of the reasons TfL were keen to get rid of them (and the 1983 stock) in the first place. The single-leaf doors were bigger than standard Tube doors, and therefore took longer to close, but because the aperture was not as big as a standard double-leaf one, boarding and alighting took longer. Both resulted in a longer dwell time.

I don't know if the door engines on the 230s are the original D stock ones, but there is a limit as to how fast a door should be allowed to move safely.

I don't know if there is a NR regulation of some sort, but all the 230s have an inhibitor fitted which slows the doors from what they were on LU, but also (as if to make things worse) the "catching" device has been removed so they slam hard and shake the whole unit, which didn't happen on LU.

I think it would be worth replacing the mechanism with an electric one to fix the issue, as it does cause a lot of loss of time. Or maybe even replace them entirely with two leaf plug doors of some sort.

 

[Bertie the bus]

I think it would be worth replacing the mechanism with an electric one to fix the issue, as it does cause a lot of loss of time. Or maybe even replace them entirely with two leaf plug doors of some sort.

Or just scrap them (the units) and replace them with something fit for purpose. Why throw even more good money after bad?

 

[L401CJF]

Or just scrap them and replace them with something fit for purpose. Why throw even more good money after bad?

It's a shame because they have the potential to be decent little trains.

They're really nice to travel on. They feel a lot more refined and fresh compared to the 150s, are well suited to the Borderlands line. If they can manage to get them to be fairly reliable, they'll be just fine until a more permanent solution comes along - most likely the 777.

Edit - the last comment is on the basis that one day 777s may be reliable too! Personally I find that the 230s are nicer to travel on than the 777s - but that's a bit of topic!

 

[Zontar]

What a shame, but so predictable. 2F90 1742 Wrexham Central - Bidston never made it. Out of service on day 1.

I am genuinely saddened that after so much time, they still have unreliable units.

 

[6Gtraincrew]

230008 on diagram today

 

[Zontar]

230008 on diagram today

I hope it manages a full day.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Apr 2023 ==

I hope it manages a full day.

Spoke too soon. Unit 008 taken out of service. First trip. Appalling for tfw.

 

[MotCO]

I hope it manages a full day.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Apr 2023 ==


Spoke too soon. Unit 008 taken out of service. First trip. Appalling for tfw.

The 07.32 to Bidston ran, albeit arriving 12 minutes late.

The 8.33 from Bidston started 13 minutes late and was cut short at Wrexham General 13 minutes late. It left for Bidston 9 minutes late.

 

[TheIrishMail]

I hope it manages a full day.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Apr 2023 ==


Spoke too soon. Unit 008 taken out of service. First trip. Appalling for tfw.

The plan I'm told to cover for 230010 on the first trip only. Photos on social media of 008 and 010 at Bidston occupying both platforms this morning.

 

[norbitonflyer]

I hope it manages a full day.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Apr 2023 ==


Spoke too soon. Unit 008 taken out of service. First trip. Appalling for tfw.

RTT shows one round trip completed - albeit curtailed at Wrexham General as it was 13 minutes late - and is now on a second trip - just passed Dee Marsh Junction ten down. Unit not identified on RTT, but the return working from Bidston (scheduled 1034 departure, but it's only just got there at 1043) is shown as 230010

 

[Zontar]

RTT shows one round trip completed - albeit curtailed at Wrexham General as it was 13 minutes late - and is now on a second trip - just passed Dee Marsh Junction ten down. Unit not identified on RTT, but the return working from Bidston (scheduled 1034 departure, but it's only just got there at 1043) is shown as 230010

Yes. There was a set swap as the first unit failed

 

[185]

Couldn't we just loco haul them? The 230s, that is.

My oh my.