Class 230 units training/introduction on the Borderlands line: updates

[shredder1]

All cancelled for tomorrow

Oh goodness, thank you, not doing very well are they

 

[185]

I've already said it can - and has - run to time at least once when driven by someone with more experience!
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:V15260/2023-04-04/detailed#allox_id=0

Okay, being an old cynic, I had a closer look at that service (2F90). If you click on Wrexham Central, you will find the only reason it (2F90) had an on time start, was that it's inward working, (2J84) had travelled the huge distance... of just 900 metres/2 minutes from Wrexham General, where it had been restarted from following earlier severe delays.

One user above mentions that with the 150s 142s 153s etc, it was always 3-15 mins late. At least with those sets, it was there. I can see it going back to 150s as soon as more 197s show up.

 

[Bertie the bus]

These units are struggling to operate any service at all at the moment so I wouldn't get too excited about 1 service in a week being on time because it has a 3 minutes pathing allowance enabling it to recover from its 4 minute late running.

 

[childwallblues]

No one wants to go to Bidston. Merseyrail don't run Ellesmere Port trains as a shuttle just in case they might delay those from Chester when crossing the junction at Hooton, no they go through to Liverpool because that's where people want to go. The only reason that the Borderlands service was cut back to Bidston was that it allowed BR to use two units on the service instead of three (with proportionate cuts to traincrew diagrams too). Birkenhead North would need another unit but it would allow enough slack to be built into the schedule that junction conflicts wouldn't be a concern. The future though is 777s running through into the loop.


Who can forget the first day of IET operation at GWR?

Takeover of the Borderlands line is a high priority for Merseytravel. But it would require additional 777s to be ordered and I would imagine signalling of the section between Bidston and Dee Marsh.

 

[shredder1]

Im just debating if I should go over tomorrow, chances ones running??

 

[Caaardiff]

Takeover of the Borderlands line is a high priority for Merseytravel. But it would require additional 777s to be ordered and I would imagine signalling of the section between Bidston and Dee Marsh.

Can the 777 work the entire line on batteries?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

What was the last official statement made by Transport for Wales concerning the service provision on the Borderlands Line?

 

[SuperLuke2334]

Can the 777 work the entire line on batteries?

I believe it was said they'd have to charge at Wrexham to be certain of doing a return trip.

 

[Chris125]

Okay, being an old cynic, I had a closer look at that service (2F90). If you click on Wrexham Central, you will find the only reason it (2F90) had an on time start, was that it's inward working, (2J84) had travelled the huge distance... of just 900 metres/2 minutes from Wrexham General, where it had been restarted from following earlier severe delays.

That was only posted to show they can - with a more experienced driver - get from one end to the other in the required time. What's lacking so far is consistency and reliability.

...though it's worth noting the subsequent departure did start on time as a result.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I believe it was said they'd have to charge at Wrexham to be certain of doing a return trip.

But impossible in the 2-minute turnround time.
Using more stock to enable charging time just destroys the line's economics further.

 

[zwk500]

But impossible in the 2-minute turnround time.
Using more stock to enable charging time just destroys the line's economics further.

Are there any stations that could feasibly be lost? If you abandon Wrexham Central completely and drop 1 or 2 stations you can get an 8-10 minute turnround at each end which would potentially be enough.

 

[Meerkat]

You still haven't explained how you'd fund this.

Would people testing be more expensive than finding it all out with failures in service and delaying introduction?

 

[zwk500]

Would people testing be more expensive than finding it all out with failures in service and delaying introduction?

It's a separate project. Once they're in service it's part of the operator's delay budget. I agree with you it's mad, but that's what it is.

 

[The exile]

f a new process which everyone agreed was simpler and more logical than its predecessor

CG I

But impossible in the 2-minute turnround time.
Using more stock to enable charging time just destroys the line's economics further.

of course, if they were running round the loop in Liverpool, they would no longer necessarily have a running-time almost exactly equal to the interval service, which is the main problem.

 

[Chris125]

Are there any stations that could feasibly be lost? If you abandon Wrexham Central completely and drop 1 or 2 stations you can get an 8-10 minute turnround at each end which would potentially be enough.

Seems a tad extreme, when the service goes half hourly there may be an opportunity to skip the quietest stations if need be?

 

[zwk500]

Seems a tad extreme, when the service goes half hourly there may be an opportunity to skip the quietest stations if need be?

If you look at the schedule the longest single gap between stations is 5 miles, that's quite a high stopping density for a reasonably rural line. If there's a half hour service proposed then skip-stopping definitely becomes an option but that seems like a high service provision given everybody else is saying it doesn't justify a third unit in for an hourly service.

 

[DLAYKEGER]

If you look at the schedule the longest single gap between stations is 5 miles, that's quite a high stopping density for a reasonably rural line. If there's a half hour service proposed then skip-stopping definitely becomes an option but that seems like a high service provision given everybody else is saying it doesn't justify a third unit in for an hourly service.

It is not really a rural line, welsh ones between penyfford and wrexham not far apart, woodchurch should be between Heswall and Upton and Deeside Industrial Estate (one of the biggest in UK should be served

 

[TheSel]

Are there any stations that could feasibly be lost? If you abandon Wrexham Central completely and drop 1 or 2 stations you can get an 8-10 minute turnround at each end which would potentially be enough.

Depends on who's doing [or paying for] the feasibility study!

It could well be argued that as this is a TfW service, with TfW stock, it should prioritise the Welsh stations.

Taking that starting point, it's easy enough to argue:

1. Upton doesn't need a train service, it has a bus every 10 mins to/from Liverpool that passes the station.

2. Whilst Heswall [Hills] (the clue is in its former name - it's actually nowhere near the centre of Heswall, which already has a frequent - if rather slow - bus service to Birkenhead and Liverpool) ... could do with better than its present hourly bus service, that's easily rectified - just double the frequency (i.e. add another Solo to the mix) and tweak the route to connect with Merseyrail at Bebington, Port Sunlight or Spital. Then you'd have a half hourly service to/from Heswall centre, connecting with Merseyrail's ultra frequent services somewhere on the Liverpool - Chester/Ellesmere Port corridor.

3. Neston doesn't need the train at all - the good folks of this ex Mining village have a half hourly bus service to/from Liverpool and an hourly one to/from Chester and the Wirral Coast.

They're TfW units, and Cardiff should therefore prioritise stations in Wales - i.e. all the other ones. By omitting the aforementioned English shacks, the end to end time of an hour becomes easy.


However, I suspect Merseytravel, the Wrexham-Bidston Rail Users Association, and many members of this forum might have a rather different view.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Are there any stations that could feasibly be lost? If you abandon Wrexham Central completely and drop 1 or 2 stations you can get an 8-10 minute turnround at each end which would potentially be enough.

Why on earth should prospective rail passengers in settlements with long-established railway stations be subject to inconvenience just because the type of rail traction is not of the quality required?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Apr 2023 ==

Depends on who's doing [or paying for] the feasibility study!

It could well be argued that as this is a TfW service, with TfW stock, it should prioritise the Welsh stations.

Taking that starting point, it's easy enough to argue:

1. Upton doesn't need a train service, it has a bus every 10 mins to/from Liverpool that passes the station.

2. Whilst Heswall [Hills] (the clue is in its former name - it's actually nowhere near the centre of Heswall, which already has a frequent - if rather slow - bus service to Birkenhead and Liverpool) ... could do with better than its present hourly bus service, that's easily rectified - just double the frequency (i.e. add another Solo to the mix) and tweak the route to connect with Merseyrail at Bebington, Port Sunlight or Spital. Then you'd have a half hourly service to/from Heswall centre, connecting with Merseyrail's ultra frequent services somewhere on the Liverpool - Chester/Ellesmere Port corridor.

3. Neston doesn't need the train at all - the good folks of this ex Mining village have a half hourly bus service to/from Liverpool and an hourly one to/from Chester and the Wirral Coast.

They're TfW units, and Cardiff should therefore prioritise stations in Wales - i.e. all the other ones. By omitting the aforementioned English shacks, the end to end time of an hour becomes easy.


However, I suspect Merseytravel, the Wrexham-Bidston Rail Users Association, and many members of this forum might have a rather different view.

You can be assured that those organisations mentioned above would indeed make their feelings on this particular aspiration known rather loudly

 

[D365]

But impossible in the 2-minute turnround time.
Using more stock to enable charging time just destroys the line's economics further.

A problem that, as more operators switch to battery-equipped rolling stock, will not be exclusive to the Borderlands route...

 

[12LDA28C]

Blimey, people are very excitable on this forum aren't they?!

New units enter service, suffer a few teething problems (it was ever thus) and drivers drive more cautiously whilst getting used to the new traction. End of story.

 

[zwk500]

Why on earth should prospective rail passengers in settlements with long-established railway stations be subject to inconvenience just because the type of rail traction is not of the quality required?

The suggestion is that the previous traction also wasn't always up to scratch.

Blimey, people are very excitable on this forum aren't they?!

New units enter service, suffer a few teething problems (it was ever thus) and drivers drive more cautiously whilst getting used to the new traction. End of story.

Tbf even the runs that didn't go red on RTT didn't go entirely to time.

 

[12LDA28C]

The suggestion is that the previous traction also wasn't always up to scratch.

Tbf even the runs that didn't go red on RTT didn't go entirely to time.

Indeed, which I suggest is down to drivers getting a feel for the braking capabilities and so on, which should reduce over time as familiarity increases.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Blimey, people are very excitable on this forum aren't they?!

New units enter service, suffer a few teething problems (it was ever thus) and drivers drive more cautiously whilst getting used to the new traction. End of story.

Perhaps those users of the "new units" on the Marston Vale line would have some thoughts of theirs to pass on to you on the matter of Vivarail *innovatory new units" that operated on that line for much longer than what has been so far on the Borderlands line. Not "end of story", more like "never-ending story".

 

[D365]

Perhaps those users of the "new units" on the Marston Vale line would have some thoughts of theirs to pass on to you on the matter of Vivarail *innovatory new units" that operated on that line for much longer than what has been so far on the Borderlands line. Not "end of story", more like "never-ending story".

Albeit the technical specification of the TfW 230s is fundamentally different to the Marston 230s.

And as with the Marston line - with only a limited number of Class 150 and/or Class 170 units available - there are few, if any, viable alternatives.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Albeit the technical specification of the TfW 230s is fundamentally different to the Marston 230s.

Both tarred with the same Vivarail "innovative" brush.

 

[Invincible]

Last journeys last night and first this morning seem to be more or less on time.

Anyone know what the status is with the other 2 units. 6 was sprayed, 8 has some kind of fault, so what's with 7 and 9?

Guess they will be fixing the brakes on 10 (which could be put down to unfortunate teething problems), so it can re enter service for Tuesday?.
They could use 6 with the graffiti as in cities, but would not help passenger confidence in new trains, is there a train repaint facility nearby?
Ideally they should have had more than 3 trains available last week.
Still not sure the problems with 7, 8 and 9 if they could also be fixed for service Tuesday.
Guess TFW would have a service level with the 3rd party maintenance to have spares to fix trains within a timescale?

 

[Krokodil]

But impossible in the 2-minute turnround time.
Using more stock to enable charging time just destroys the line's economics further.

Laying third rail from the outskirts of Wrexham into Central allows charging to take place while running in/out. Should be less work required for securing the boundary there than out in the country.

Wrexham - Liverpool - Wrexham would take about 2hr 35 so with a half-hourly service you'd naturally be using 6x777s anyway and there's a naturally forming 20 minute turnaround in WXC anyway. If the service did remain hourly (contrary to the wishes of the various public bodies) you'd use 3x777s with the same layover. If you want a standard interval timetable (which is generally considered a good thing) then you've got to have that layover by default anyway.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Apr 2023 ==

They could use 6 with the graffiti as in cities

I'm pretty sure that the universal approach to graffiti on passenger trains is to withdraw the unit from service immediately for scrubbing clean. Discourages them that way.

 

[D365]

Both tarred with the same Vivarail "innovative" brush.

If, in your eyes, the TfW 230s are tarred by one week in service, then I struggle to see what alternative the Class 197s (which themselves are reported to have exhibited similar teething troubles) could provide at this time.

 

[childwallblues]

Birkenhead North EMU Depot has a paint facility.