Class 230 units training/introduction on the Borderlands line: updates

[L401CJF]

It appears to have been running late all day, and is now 22 late, working 2J76 to Wrexham.

I had a quick look earlier and despite ending up 15 late, seemed to be running consistently give or take a minute or 2.

Edit- It was last logged at 30 late and has been terminated at Wrexham General, 1530 ish from Wrexham cancelled along with the return, set to continue at 1729 from General.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It appears to have been running late all day, and is now 22 late, working 2J76 to Wrexham.

I had a quick look earlier and despite ending up 15 late, seemed to be running consistently give or take a minute or 2.

Edit- It was last logged at 30 late and has been terminated at Wrexham General, 1530 ish from Wrexham cancelled along with the return, set to continue at 1729 from General.

This information is not what could be described as "heartening" to those rail travellers who rely on the train service.

 

[L401CJF]

This information is not what could be described as "heartening" to those rail travellers who rely on the train service.

Oh not at all, far from ideal

 

[zwk500]

Oh not at all, far from ideal

Whilst far from ideal, testing happens for a reason!

 

[Bertie the bus]

Whilst far from ideal, testing happens for a reason!

Does it? Testing should happen for a reason but these aren't test runs, they are real, passenger carrying services. Whether trains can keep to time should indeed have been determined during testing, not after they entered service.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Does it? Testing should happen for a reason but these aren't test runs, their are real, passenger carrying services.

Every run is a test if it identifies an error.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Every run is a test if it identifies an error.

Absolute nonsense.

 

[zwk500]

Does it? Testing should happen for a reason but these aren't test runs, they are real, passenger carrying services. Whether trains can keep to time should indeed have been determined during testing, not after they entered service.

Oh sorry, I thought this was empty testing on the actual line, rather than runs in passenger service. I'm 100% with you that if they've got revenue onboard then they shouldn't be having this level of problems.

 

[anthony263]

Oh sorry, I thought this was empty testing on the actual line, rather than runs in passenger service. I'm 100% with you that if they've got revenue onboard then they shouldn't be having this level of problems.

They had similar problems with the 197 and 231s had some delays when they 1st entered public service. Give it a week or so they should settle down. If after a month or so then we can go back to this argument

 

[Zontar]

They had similar problems with the 197 and 231s had some delays when they 1st entered public service. Give it a week or so they should settle down. If after a month or so then we can go back to this argument

They kept breaking in testing. Without ballast loads. Now they are in service, I'm pretty confident we will be having this discussion again. Although I'd loved to be wrong and these actually running a decent service, I don't actually want them to fail.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

They had similar problems with the 197 and 231s had some delays when they 1st entered public service. Give it a week or so they should settle down. If after a month or so then we can go back to this argument

This sounds very much like you feel that fare-paying passengers using a mode of transport should be expected to be treated as guinea-pigs by those operating the service.

 

[43096]

This sounds very much like you feel that fare-paying passengers using a mode of transport should be expected to be treated as guinea-pigs by those operating the service.

This forum very much has the usual hyperventilating and hyperbolic response that we get whenever a new train enters service and gets teething issues.

No matter how much testing you do, there will be issues found once you start getting passengers on board. To quote Helmuth von Moltke, "No battle plan survives contact with the enemy."

 

[Bertie the bus]

They had similar problems with the 197 and 231s had some delays when they 1st entered public service. Give it a week or so they should settle down. If after a month or so then we can go back to this argument

I've just checked the services quoted for the 231's first day in service (18/01/23) and most of the services it operated were pretty much on time with a couple of 5 minute delays. No comparison with what is happening with these. Incremental delays throughout the day resulting in services having to be cancelled to get back on schedule.

 

[DLAYKEGER]

We seem to be seeing quite bizarre delays e.g. on time at Shotton then 6mins down at Dee Marsh Junction, which not far apart and flat. Such a delay, reminds me of when pacers got stuck on the dee bridge at Hawerden Bridge on Ice when 1st launched back in the 80s and then we see more of a delay between Heswall and Upton a stretch with cuttings and embankments. . Other services don't seem to have the same delays, and keep to the same starting delay throughout

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I've just checked the services quoted for the 231's first day in service (18/01/23) and most of the services it operated were pretty much on time with a couple of 5 minute delays. No comparison with what is happening with these. Incremental delays throughout the day resulting in services having to be cancelled to get back on schedule.

The Conwy Valley line has reasonable turnrounds at Llandudno though, to catch up.
The Wrexham-Bidston line has a couple of minutes at each end and no chance to recover time if it goes late.
The weather has been excellent for the first 2 days in service, it can be an awkward line in bad weather with the climbs out of the valleys.
The limited signalling doesn't help if there is extra traffic about.

 

[Bertie the bus]

The Conwy Valley line has reasonable turnrounds at Llandudno though, to catch up.

The 231s don't go anywhere near Llandudno.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Apr 2023 ==

The Wrexham-Bidston line has a couple of minutes at each end and no chance to recover time if it goes late.

Which is of no relevance to delays accumulating throughout the day.

The limited signalling doesn't help if there is extra traffic about.

Wrexham - Bidston is probably one of the most self-contained routes in the country. The delays aren't being caused by other traffic about.

 

[Anonymous10]

The 231s don't go anywhere near Llandudno.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Apr 2023 ==


Which is of no relevance to delays accumulating throughout the day.

Wrexham - Bidston is probably one of the most self-contained routes in the country. The delays aren't being caused by other traffic about.

If there's little time between arriving and departing it will impact the next service and the delay spirals or becomes cancelled.

 

[Bertie the bus]

The delays won't spiral at all because as I have stated it is an almost entirely self-contained route. If a train departs 8 minutes late it doesn't think 'I'm late already so I'll take it easy'. I will repeat for you, the delays aren't being caused by other traffic, or the presence of other traffic increasing the delay.

 

[Anonymous10]

The delays won't spiral at all because as I have stated it is an almost entirely self-contained route. If a train departs 8 minutes late it doesn't think 'I'm late already so I'll take it easy'. I will repeat for you, the delays aren't being caused by other traffic, or the presence of other traffic increasing the delay.

No but if your constantly picking up a few minutes delay each end that's a spiralling delay, as the delay will not decrease. Its a new fleet so inevitably things will take longer, let's give it a week and see

 

[norbitonflyer]

No but if your constantly picking up a few minutes delay each end that's a spiralling delay, as the delay will not decrease. Its a new fleet so inevitably things will take longer, let's give it a week and see

Precisely. If the layover time is too short to allow the return trip to start on time, the return trip will start late. If the line is self contained the only causes of delay will be specific to either the line or the unit. So whatever caused it to lose time on one trip, will probably cause the same thing to happen on the next trip, losing more time.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The 231s don't go anywhere near Llandudno.

Sorry, I thought you were referring to Day 1 of 197s, which kept running late.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Precisely. If the layover time is too short to allow the return trip to start on time, the return trip will start late. If the line is self contained the only causes of delay will be specific to either the line or the unit. So whatever caused it to lose time on one trip, will probably cause the same thing to happen on the next trip, losing more time.

Agreed, and I haven't said that wouldn't happen. If we put this little exchange into context I replied to a post that said exactly the same thing happened when the 231s were introduced. The same thing didn't happen, a couple of services were slightly late but others ran to schedule which is completely different to what has happened with the 230 which has experienced increased delays on each run. A short turnaround hasn't caused that, though obviously a short turnaround has prevented subsequent services departing on time, even if they had departed on time they would have lost time on each run - something that didn't happen with the 231s on their first day.

 

[D365]

This sounds very much like you feel that fare-paying passengers using a mode of transport should be expected to be treated as guinea-pigs by those operating the service.

Thank goodness you don’t live on the Thameslink routes, when the Class 700s were being introduced! (one example of a route where a number of reliability concerns were experienced, on a larger scale albeit)

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Obviously there are those on this thread who are well aware and well versed in all railway operational matters and speak as such in the postings on this thread, but I still maintain that rail passengers are only concerned that their chosen mode of rail travel to either work or leisure is something that turns up on time and returns on time, nothing more, nothing less.

If I want to buy loaves of bread, all I need is for them to be on the shelves to purchase. I don't concern myself with global wheat shortages that may eventually affect availability of loaves sold in a retail environment.

 

[D365]

Obviously there are those on this thread who are well aware and well versed in all railway operational matters and speak as such in the postings on this thread, but I still maintain that rail passengers are only concerned that their chosen mode of rail travel to either work or leisure is something that turns up on time and returns on time, nothing more, nothing less.

If I want to buy loaves of bread, all I need is for them to be on the shelves to purchase. I don't concern myself with global wheat shortages that may eventually affect availability of loaves sold in a retail environment.

I don’t think anyone is going to disagree with this.

 

[childwallblues]

The service uses the same platform at Bidston with Merseyrails West Kirby line at Bidston. If the train is late on the approach to Bidston further delays could occur as the Merseyrail service would have priority.

 

[Foxcover]

Yes, there does seem to be zero tolerance to letting a terminating Wrexham-Bidston get in the way of a West Kirby train, even if it’s the Merseyrail train running late (which is understandable). Another reason why it would be great to have these running through to Birkenhead North into the third platform when units/timings allow.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Yes, there does seem to be zero tolerance to letting a terminating Wrexham-Bidston get in the way of a West Kirby train, even if it’s the Merseyrail train running late (which is understandable). Another reason why it would be great to have these running through to Birkenhead North into the third platform when units/timings allow.

would it be easier to do that then just adding a new terminating platform at Bidston to make the line independent to the level of the St Ives branch.
Even with going through to Birkenhead North then there's two sets of trains they could be delayed by

 

[Pacef8]

The bidston platform is a bit of an anomaly as it sits on a marsh on a Island with limited steps access and nowhere to put an extra island/platform.

 

[pwr]

Last journeys last night and first this morning seem to be more or less on time.

Anyone know what the status is with the other 2 units. 6 was sprayed, 8 has some kind of fault, so what's with 7 and 9?