Depends what we're counting as a small car, a 3-door VW Up! starts under £15K, a Toyota Aygo X is £16K. I was going to look at what a new Yaris costs, as I bought a 1-year-old in 2020 (for £12K), but they've discontinued the petrol-only models so now it starts at £22K for the Hybrid.
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UK switching to electric vehicles discussion
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I would call the "small car" class the Corsa, Fiesta and similar. The ones you cite are city cars and should cost well under £10K. £8K seems a sweet spot for such a vehicle with a 1 litre naturally aspirated petrol engine (I accept an EV may cost more).
£15K should get you a family hatch like an Astra or Focus.
It has truly gone mad - the PCP probably is to blame as all you're essentially doing is financing whatever whacking profit the manufacturer wants to make.
My Yaris is the 1.5L version, so a step up from the 1.0L. I want to say the new price then was around £15K, but that feels like quite low depreciation for the first year.
I'd say the Yaris is the same class as the Corsa and the imminently discontinued Fiesta. A new petrol Corsa starts at £18K, its electric counterpart is £32K.
A new Astra starts at £26K, so if the MG4 is of a comparable size then it's looking reasonably priced.
All the prices I'm quoting are from the manufacturer websites, in case that makes any difference.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
£26K is just not a reasonable price for that class of vehicle. MGs aren't specifically overpriced (I'd say they are the only EVs in the market that don't have a grossly unreasonable markup over the petrol equivalent), the entire market is.
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That difference is outrageous.
In 1981, a base model Ford Escort was £3757 (according to Autocar). That’s about the equivalent of £20k today. And you get a lot more ‘car’ in an equivalent base Focus now - bigger, safer, better performance, more equipment, etc.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
However if you compare say the 2010s things were much cheaper.
So was everything!
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Because of modern manufacturing techniques and the likes, which haven't gone away.
Inflation since the 2010s doesn't explain current new car prices. Even the small loss of value of the pound doesn't. It's pure profiteering based on the availability of PCPs - people went from accepting a HP payment of about £300 a month to accepting a PCP payment of £300 a month, but the former leaves you owning a car at the end, the latter doesn't.
PCPs are basically a scam. You're not buying a car, you're essentially just financing the depreciation - it's little better than leasing.
I agree we should reduce pollution wherever possible, and modern diesel and petrol engines are much cleaner than they were in the past. There is polution in making all cars including EVs, it's just that it is mostly not in the UK. However climate change - what climate change? For every scientist you can quote asserting that climate change is real, I can produce one with the contrary view. There really needs to be a grown up debate about whether it is real, what its impact is etc. Eliminating CO2 is not required - we need it to grow crops - see Harry Metcalfe's video on this; he is a motor correspondent and a farmer.
Having said that, I would buy an EV if the package was right. By that I mean price, recharge times and range predominantly, but however the technology is still evolving. If I buy an EV now, the technology will be out of date within a year or two - battery technology is still improving which will give the sort of range required to work in all weathers, without range anxiety and bank holiday queues at chargers. I don't want to be a guinea pig - I'd rather buy the finished product.
Probably because of all the electronic gizmos on them - from eletronic parking brakes (what's wrong with a handbrake), computer screens to operate everything from heating to audio, do we all need heated steering wheels, lane assist etc? Some are EU requirements, some aren't.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
The MG5 is the only one I'd buy at the moment, it doesn't have a ridiculous markup and is a decent car without too many gimmicks, plus it has a very good range. It's still expensive, but not when you compare it to the whole car market.
reddragon
Established Member
It is the consensus of 99% of all scientists that Climate change is real and an existential threat to us all, confirmed by the IPCC, the UN and about every Government on earth. If you choose to read the lies in the gutter press such as the Daily Fail, you are misinformed.
No part of the oil extraction, refinement or burning process is at all clean or cheap. Cleaner is nowhere near clean.
Yes EVs are evolving fast but are still way ahead of ICE cars.
Or you are misinformed by the BBC and most of the MSM. There has never (to my knowledge) been an open discussion between the two sides where each side can state their case and be challenged by the other. Until that happens, I will never be convinced.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
The climate is changing, this is undeniable fact. Just look at weather records.
The only thing for any kind of debate (and I think the case against is at best weak) is why it is.
reddragon
Established Member
The climate is changing fast, says the Scientists & weather records. I can tell you that in my industry the scale of upheaval due to the actual consequences happening now is huge. Sadly, some Muppets remain blind to it.
The only kind of debate possible now is how fast, not if or why.
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Yes an Elvis landed a B17 on the moon & is alive & well
As others have hinted at there are a lot more safety features required today than even 2010, and this combined with other issues (inflation/supply+demand/and tighter enviro regs on ICEs) all contribute. Margins are incredibly tight on traditionally cheaper, non suv/crossover models (which are all sold at higher prices) to the point where you see Ford replacing its traditional models such as the Mondeo and Fiesta with the Kuga and Puma which are more expensive.
johncrossley
Established Member
If anything, the BBC (for example) have to accommodate both sides no matter how outrageous or crazy that other side is. There is some debate as to whether that is truly balanced.
Have you been for a drive in an EV or a PHEV? They're very nice to drive, quick to pull away, no faffing about with gears, nice and quiet in the cabin, relaxing, particularly in traffic. Sure you could doggedly stick to an ICE for as long as possible, but compared to driving an EV or a PHEV you'd have to be a glutton for punishment.
If the battery and charging concerns you, skip the EV and get a PHEV, electric driving with the ICE in reserve.
telstarbox
Established Member
Laptops and smartphones are probably a good indicator of how the price will come down as R&D costs are recouped and production scales up. I wouldn't have bought the first iPhone but now I could afford a serviceable Android phone almost every month if I so wanted. Although granted people don't usually buy those on PCP.
That’s not how science works. 99 per cent of climate scientists believe that manmade climate change is happening. Their work is peer reviewed by other experts- they don’t have to justify themselves to people who don’t believe in their science, many of whom are likely to be funded by oil companies or agents looking to undermine the West.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Kugas are very cheap used though for what they are. They've become one of the fleet cars of choice, replacing the Mondy, so there are loads of them about. Only downside (in modern terms) is that most are diesel.
johncrossley
Established Member
I haven't been in an electric car, but most of us have probably been on a DMU and the equivalent EMU and the difference in comfort is of course enormous. There is even more of a difference between an electric bus and diesel bus.
Oh dear. Actual scientists with actual qualifications or people on YouTube? There is a difference
Eliminate CO2? Are you just going to hold your breath instead?
I think that you will also find that there are actual scientists with actual qualifications that debunk the climate change theories.
I bet I won't
In terms of interior space/loading the Kuga is comparable with the Mondeo (it actually has less boot space), and like you say it’s basically replaced it. The cheapest listed on the Ford website is the Zetec coming in at £30800. The top of the range Vignale starts at £37300. So roughly twice the price you were saying you should be able to get a cheap hatch for earlier (15k in post 1502). Ok it’s a ‘bigger’ car than a cheap hatch ‘(Astra or Focus’), but not twice the price bigger, especially as it’s actually less versatile than a Mondeo. But that’s the problem with SUVs-more expensive (which is why manufacturers like them), less practical and rubbish to drive!
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Have you ever driven a Kuga? Like any high car it can lean a bit on corners but it is without a doubt the most comfortable car I have ever owned. It's also surprisingly economic, I'm getting just under 50mpg average despite thrashing it around MK as well as motorway miles.
TBH I think 30K new is excessive for the base Kuga in diesel or petrol, I'd say 20-25K would be nearer the mark, but because they're used so much by fleets used ones are about the cheapest decent sized SUV you can buy, so you'd be mad to buy new, just as you'd have been mad to buy a new Mondeo or Vectra when those were the fleet car of choice. Anything popular with fleets is grossly overpriced new and depreciates like a stone, that's always been the way.
In the last 10 years, new and used car prices have gone up by inflation, and a bit more.
In more detail ...
I bought a 2012 Mondeo Zetec 2.0 diesel from a Ford dealer when it was just under 3 years old with 56k miles for £8,500. The list price had been £20,895, so it had depreciated to 41%.
If I adjust those prices by the increase in the retail price index, in today's money, the 2012 list price was £32,000 and the second hand price in 2015 is £13,468.
On Autotrader, the closest equivalent Kuga that I can find is 3 years old with 46k miles for £15,000 from a private seller. The list price was £30,290 so its at 49.5% of the original value. If I adjust the 2020 list price with RPI, then its £37,953 in today's money.
That means the list price adjusted for RPI has gone by 18.6%. The second hand price has gone up by 11%, and that is from a private buyer, when I got a 3 year warranty from the dealer.
I used this RPI calculator https://erikasgrig.com/calculators/rpi-calculator-inflation/
and https://comcar.co.uk/companycar/tax/history/Ford for list prices
gg1
Established Member
It's only really the past 2 years or so that car prices have shot up massively.
First example, in July 2020 I traded in a Citroën C4 Picasso, 64 plate, 65,000 miles, top of the range model. I checked on autotrader the following week and they were asking for £6,500. Just checked on autotrader again, the closest equivalent is a top spec 17 plate, 75,000 miles car, same engine and gearbox. The asking price is £10,500, a 60% price increase.
Second example, the car I bought was a new Kia Niro via Carwow. Out of curiosity I asked for quotes for the same spec Niro a couple of months ago, best price was around 30% more than I paid in 2020.
The only hope is that second hand EVs are much 'safer' buys than an ICE vehicle that could be hiding all sorts of expensive problems. Assuming the battery checks out (and there are many tools to check power cell integrity), you should be good to go.
As such, I wonder if the second hand market is the way to go for EVs in the future? It's already possible to get some good deals on cars other than a near ten year old Nissan Leaf.
As such, I wonder if the second hand market is the way to go for EVs in the future? It's already possible to get some good deals on cars other than a near ten year old Nissan Leaf.
Piers Corbyn, a scientist with knowledge of climate and weather, states that Co2 produced by human activity is less than the Co2 produced by the Termite insects of the planet, in other words man produces a trivial amount of Co2 i compared to the total Co2 produced by nature. Are we going to have to eliminate the Termites to save the Planet?