Lighting quality on trains: are you bothered?

[XAM2175]

I have always assumed the trend toward super bright super white lighting in both trains and buses was about accessibility and safety.

Yes, the trend to brighter lighting and lighter-coloured wall coverings is driven by both of those factors, and especially the first of them. The PRM NTSN (GB domestic equivalent of the TSI) requires specific minimum lighting intensities, for a start. I'd love to know exactly what they are, but not enough that I'm willing to pay for a copy of the ISO standard to which the NTSN points.

Safety is important too, as Bletchleyite noted when he said that one person's cozy is another's dingy. I still believe that there's likely wiggle room in how the lighting is configured, and in the colour temperature chosen, but at that point we're back in the "little attention to detail" area in which British railways sadly like to spend so much time.

Somewhat bothered by all public lighting, really, given I have almost no sensory input filters. I spend all my time on a train looking out the window though, so as long as it doesn't flicker ( begone luminescent tubes ) & isn't obnoxiously bright it's not a huge deal.

Truth be told, I think it's probably the case that the forum's membership includes a significantly larger number of people with sensory disorders than you would find a group of the same size randomly selected from the general public. It's one of the many areas in which we shouldn't assume to be a representative sample.
(and I say this as a person with such a disorder myself)

 

[Mikey C]

Just my opinion, but this seems to be one of those things like seats aligning with windows that the vast majority of people really don't notice or care about in the real world. I have never heard anyone outside this forum comment about the lighting on board a train (except on the rare occasions when it used to go off completely on Mk 3 coaches, which is a different issue)

But then it's not something you'd casually raise in conversation. Silence doesn't necessarily mean contentment!

 

[Ashley Hill]

The refurbished GWR day coaches on the Night Riviera have two settings,bright and floodlit. At least the Castles retained the full/half light switch.

 

[Irascible]

Truth be told, I think it's probably the case that the forum's membership includes a significantly larger number of people with sensory disorders than you would find a group of the same size randomly selected from the general public. It's one of the many areas in which we shouldn't assume to be a representative sample.
(and I say this as a person with such a disorder myself)

Mine are a consequence of being thrown out of a car ( seatbelt catch failed before someone goes off on one ) & smashing my head on something hard, so possibly not representative either! I've no problem with wearing sunglasses inside if the light is really a bother.

 

[bramling]

agreed!

It’s all very well saying most people don’t care, but it’s also a fact that most people don’t use rail. Perhaps it’s these sorts of things which put people off?

I always used to regard rail travel as superior to going by car. The various trends over the last decade and a half have flipped this round for me. I find the experience of rail travel so poor at the moment I’m amazed anyone still uses it to be honest.

 

[Bald Rick]

It’s all very well saying most people don’t care, but it’s also a fact that most people don’t use rail. Perhaps it’s these sorts of things which put people off?

I always used to regard rail travel as superior to going by car. The various trends over the last decade and a half have flipped this round for me. I find the experience of rail travel so poor at the moment I’m amazed anyone still uses it to be honest.

opinions vary. My trains have been fine recently. Using, on average, 12-15 trains a week. Usually on time or close to it. One delay of 10min+ in the last month, and no cancellations. Admittedly this is just Thameslink, Elizabeth Line, WMT and Avanti. But I’d go as far to say that the service is as good as I’ve known it. The Avanti service has been great the last couple of months, including the on board team.

I am not ‘just saying this’ - it is my genuine experience.

back on topic, I can’t say lighting has ever bothered me. Nor announcements. Nor Wi-Fi / plug sockets or lack thereof. Nor seat comfort with the exception of the old 319/321 knees by your chin jobs. Perhaps I’m easily pleased.

 

[bramling]

opinions vary. My trains have been fine recently. Using, on average, 12-15 trains a week. Usually on time or close to it. One delay of 10min+ in the last month, and no cancellations. Admittedly this is just Thameslink, Elizabeth Line, WMT and Avanti. But I’d go as far to say that the service is as good as I’ve known it. The Avanti service has been great the last couple of months, including the on board team.

I am not ‘just saying this’ - it is my genuine experience.

I can only go by my experience. Used the train this morning. 8 late arrival at King’s Cross, which seemed on this occasion to be due to late running freight trains. However I noticed there was a whole list of cancellations as well as a short-form this morning.

back on topic, I can’t say lighting has ever bothered me. Nor announcements. Nor Wi-Fi / plug sockets or lack thereof. Nor seat comfort with the exception of the old 319/321 knees by your chin jobs. Perhaps I’m easily pleased.

On their own these things probably aren’t the end of the world, though equally that doesn’t excuse them. However it seems to be getting to the point where a number of issues are adding together. It all adds up to a pretty undesirable package.

 

[XAM2175]

Mine are a consequence of being thrown out of a car ( seatbelt catch failed before someone goes off on one ) & smashing my head on something hard, so possibly not representative either! I've no problem with wearing sunglasses inside if the light is really a bother.

Ah, I apologise for being presumptuous all the same.

 

[Efini92]

You've hit the nail on the head here. It leads to me seeking out CrossCountry services to avoid using GWR IETs despite the Voyager stink.

I don’t like the IET lighting, it’s like being in an operating theatre. Far too white.

 

[JohnMcL7]

I never, ever notice it. It doesn’t even register as a’thing’ to worry about.

I was starting to think I was the only one and was particularly surprised to see someone choosing an XC Voyager over a GWR IET as I did a trip last year with a GWR IET then switching to an XC Voyager, I much preferred the IET over the intrusive noise and vibration of the Voyager which I've never liked travelling on. The trip finished with a Northern 150 which was also fine although it wasn't a long trip for that part.

 

[dan4291]

The Lumo class 803s have adjustable saloon lighting levels which staff can change in the train management system: Bright, Warm and Night. Do any other trains have adjustable lighting?

 

[bramling]

The Lumo class 803s have adjustable saloon lighting levels which staff can change in the train management system: Bright, Warm and Night. Do any other trains have adjustable lighting?

700s and 717s have an option called standby lighting, which dims all the lighting. A few drivers set it to this. Produces a much more restful atmosphere.

 

[Egg Centric]

Both lighting sensitivity and rail enthusiasm are linked with being away from the "normie" point on all the non-neurotypical spectrums; I, therefore, wouldn't conclude anything particularly from this poll for how "normies" perceive things any more than if we had had a poll 5 years ago about whether a VP185 or Valenta was a better engine.

I agree though that lighting isn't as good as it could be - need warmer temps rather than brightness personally. But not overly concerned.

 

[airantraigh]

Both lighting sensitivity and rail enthusiasm are linked with being away from the "normie" point on all the non-neurotypical spectrums

I was considering highlighting this (haha) but could not phrase it as eloquently as yourself- as a proud non-neurotypical rail enthusiast.

 

[Egg Centric]

I was considering highlighting this (haha) but could not phrase it as eloquently as yourself- as a proud non-neurotypical rail enthusiast.

Indeed it is something in a strange way to be proud of (although I can't explain why)!

It does lead to somewhat non-representative results in various polls though - such as here - when it comes to passenger perception. Mind you we can notice things much before the average passenger and understand *why* they don't like some stock even if most are ok with it (or just considering being in a train a mildly unpleasant experience to be endured which goes for most of my normie friends).

 

[Aviator88]

Yes, the trend to brighter lighting and lighter-coloured wall coverings is driven by both of those factors, and especially the first of them. The PRM NTSN (GB domestic equivalent of the TSI) requires specific minimum lighting intensities, for a start. I'd love to know exactly what they are, but not enough that I'm willing to pay for a copy of the ISO standard to which the NTSN points.

I just had a sniff down the same rabbithole and good lord, I'd forgotten how expensive tech info is!

 

[yorksrob]

But I’d go as far to say that the service is as good as I’ve known it. The Avanti service has been great the last couple of months, including the on board.

That's interesting. It's as bad as I've known it. Too many missing TPE's screwing up the timetable and too much industrial action.

 

[43066]

That's interesting. It's as bad as I've known it. Too many missing TPE's screwing up the timetable and too much industrial action.

Apart from the timetable reductions it is pretty good in London and the Home Counties (which is all the government really cares about of course).

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back on topic, I can’t say lighting has ever bothered me. Nor announcements. Nor Wi-Fi / plug sockets or lack thereof. Nor seat comfort with the exception of the old 319/321 knees by your chin jobs. Perhaps I’m easily pleased.

I suspect it’s more that many on here are impossible to please .

 

[yorksrob]

Apart from the timetable reductions it is pretty good in London and the Home Counties (which is all the government really cares about of course).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Apr 2023 ==

My trips around South Eastern have certainly been pleasant enough, therefore I'm forced to concur.

 

[BRX]

I suspect it’s more that many on here are impossible to please .

We end up back at the usual old attitude that if something seems wrong, it's because passengers are too fussy, not because there's anything about the service that could be improved.

If it's the case that actually no-one's bothered about lighting ambience, except some cranks on here, why is it that airlines, and increasingly bus & coach operators, and many overseas rail operators, seem to pay it quite a bit of attention? Are they foolish or pandering to an imaginary demand?

There's a whole profession of lighting design. It's a crucial part of interior design. Things like brightness levels, distribution of light, colour temperature are basic considerations that any interior designer is familiar with and thinks about every day. It's widely recognised as important in the design of buildings, so what is it about trains that makes them a special case where it doesn't matter?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Apr 2023 ==

I think it's worth remembering that lighting can have significant subconscious effects, so even those who think they don't notice it probably do on some level. The blue lighting used at some stations to deter suicides are a great example. It need not be something to "worry"about, but it can be useful to consider it in design.

Yes I agree.

 

[43066]

We end up back at the usual old attitude that if something seems wrong, it's because passengers are too fussy, not because there's anything about the service that could be improved.

I didn’t say passengers, I said people on here.

so what is it about trains that makes them a special case where it doesn't matter?

Ask the DfT, they specify the designs! The focus on bright lighting will doubtless be due to a combination of health and safety concerns, avoiding trips and falls, and the need to accommodate people with poor sight, the colour blind etc.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's a whole profession of lighting design. It's a crucial part of interior design. Things like brightness levels, distribution of light, colour temperature are basic considerations that any interior designer is familiar with and thinks about every day. It's widely recognised as important in the design of buildings, so what is it about trains that makes them a special case where it doesn't matter?

You could say that about all manner of aspects of lazy train design, such as how the abomination that is the Fainsa Sophia was even allowed to enter the market, or why it's OK to lose window alignment in 1st on 80x just to squeeze in one single seat.

 

[Mikey C]

But GWR didn't turn half the lights out on their refurbished HSTs because of moans by rail enthusiasts on here. They presumably had negative feedback from the wider public

 

[Devonian]

The focus on bright lighting will doubtless be due to a combination of health and safety concerns, avoiding trips and falls, and the need to accommodate people with poor sight, the colour blind etc.

The regulations are indeed specifically there to accommodate all these concerns: but the implementation of lighting to meet regulations is flexible.

Minimum light levels are specified for different areas such as seating areas (I think 150 lux), aisles (75 lux at waist height and 50 lux at floor), vestibules etc. If I recall correctly, there are provisions for reducing light levels specifically for passenger comfort, and installing reading lamps allows the general lighting to be reduced from 150 lux to 100 lux at a stroke. Good lighting design could implement the regulations in a way that is pleasant: for example, the reading lamps and the spot lights in the central lighting panel of Voyagers provide specific illumination that allows dimmer and indirect general lighting. Alas, it is cheaper just to put in super-bright overhead strip lighting.

The Intercity Express Programme specs specifically excluded reading lights in the parameters for either first or standard class, but demanded "sufficient lighting level to be allow reading when seated" (which would be 150 lux), hence bright general lighting. The HS2 tender specification is far more ambitious, requiring not only that the general lighting level can be dimmed and its colour temperature adjusted, but that reading lights will be provided and have adjustable brightness.

 

[43066]

The regulations are indeed specifically there to accommodate all these concerns: but the implementation of lighting to meet regulations is flexible.

Minimum light levels are specified for different areas such as seating areas (I think 150 lux), aisles (75 lux at waist height and 50 lux at floor), vestibules etc. If I recall correctly, there are provisions for reducing light levels specifically for passenger comfort, and installing reading lamps allows the general lighting to be reduced from 150 lux to 100 lux at a stroke. Good lighting design could implement the regulations in a way that is pleasant: for example, the reading lamps and the spot lights in the central lighting panel of Voyagers provide specific illumination that allows dimmer and indirect general lighting. Alas, it is cheaper just to put in super-bright overhead strip lighting.

The Intercity Express Programme specs specifically excluded reading lights in the parameters for either first or standard class, but demanded "sufficient lighting level to be allow reading when seated" (which would be 150 lux), hence bright general lighting. The HS2 tender specification is far more ambitious, requiring not only that the general lighting level can be dimmed and its colour temperature adjusted, but that reading lights will be provided and have adjustable brightness.

Thanks, that’s interesting. As I suspected, there are minimum required specs, and those are implemented as cheaply as possible at the behest of the DfT.

Good to hear that the HS2 spec is more ambitious, although whether that will survive future cuts/efficiency savings is an unknown at this point.

 

[stuu]

back on topic, I can’t say lighting has ever bothered me. Nor announcements. Nor Wi-Fi / plug sockets or lack thereof. Nor seat comfort with the exception of the old 319/321 knees by your chin jobs. Perhaps I’m easily pleased.

Is that because you use a variety of trains frequently, so you know exactly what to expect? An infrequent user won't have that experience so is much more likely to pick up on discomfort/annoyances like lighting, poor seats or whatever. They might not moan about it, but they may well remember the issues next time they have a choice of mode

 

[Bald Rick]

Is that because you use a variety of trains frequently, so you know exactly what to expect? An infrequent user won't have that experience so is much more likely to pick up on discomfort/annoyances like lighting, poor seats or whatever. They might not moan about it, but they may well remember the issues next time they have a choice of mode

I don’t think so.

I use buses, planes and ferries a couple of times a year each, and lighting / seat comfort / Wi-Fi / etc etc etc doesn’t bother me on those either.

Besides, most of the people on this thread probably use trains as much as I do.

 

[Basher]

I travel on the Azums regularly, and there is no reading lighting above my seat This does make it difficult to read a book at times.

 

[Irascible]

Ah, I apologise for being presumptuous all the same.

It's fine, I was born with the ADHD, so balance restored I don't think that has anything to do with being annoyed by lighting though.

 

[Deepgreen]

Whether people overtly notice lighting or not, it's a fact that a huge amount of research and design effort has gone into assessing the effects of lighting on the brain, and thus behaviour, in internal and external environments. Now, I won't avoid train travel on any specific type of stock just because of its lighting, but I will probably notice (on various consciousness levels), how the lighting seems to me - e,g, harsh, stark, dim, bright, etc. The sub-conscious impression created by lighting is a powerful one and it deserves consideration in all spheres of use. A long train journey might be considered pleasant and relaxing if the lighting is right, but far less so if not, albeit sub-consciously. Fundamentally, of course, it should be functionally appropriate - i.e. directing light to where it is needed for safety and technical (CCTV) reasons. A failure of so much lighting in general is the waste of light from spill and other inefficiencies - street lighting has been a classic example until very recently, when some steps have been taken to improve things. The harsh reality is probably that, if meeting minimum standards, much of this is probably ignored in the face of cost savings.