TV Alert - Dispatches on Channel 4 ''Train Journeys from Hell"

[jon0844]

You know, it wouldn't surprise me if they do bring up driver pay and have someone say it is easier than driving a bus.

If they do mention wasted money, I am sure the blame will go on drivers and TOCs, not Network Rail, the DfT or politicians.

Sent from my MB525 using Tapatalk

 

[daccer]

It is a traditional TV technique to bash the railways on a periodic basis - I would expect this programme to be no different. On a network of 10000miles or so carrying 1.3billion passengers per year it is not hard to find isolated pockets of problems and complaints. It will have no effect and things will continue improving slowly but surely. I am sure the programme will highlight the problems easily enough but will not come up with any solutions or where the money will come from to pay for the 'improvements'.

 

[Matt Taylor]

'Richard Wilson and Evening Standard in less than objective reporting shocker'

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/lifestyle/article-23932856-i-dont-believe-it-is-that-victor-in-cattle-class.do



:roll:

 

[tbtc]

'Richard Wilson and Evening Standard in less than objective reporting shocker'

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/lifestyle/article-23932856-i-dont-believe-it-is-that-victor-in-cattle-class.do



:roll:

This is exactly what I feared. If the biggest headline is "passenger without correct documents gets charged full fare" and "no spare seats on busiest service in the UK" then I'm not expecting anything constructive. I shouldn't be surprised, given the trailer for it (call centre operative struggles to identify which station he suggested)

 

[Bedpan]

I'm not sure that I agree. Time and time again the media berate the railways for late/overcrowded trains when the circumstances are not really the railways' fault, so if that's what the programme is going to be about, then watching it will probably make my hackles rise.

But, with my "normal" hat on, one this that I object to about the railways is the general phoilosophy that if they overcharge their passengers, it doesn't matter because they are unlikely to know any different, yet if the passenger makes a mistake by, for instance, leaving a railcard at home, then the very maximum amount of money possible is milked from them (in Richard Wilson's case about 20 times their original fare). Doubtless no mention that he could have saves a fair few pounds by buying another railcard at Sheffieldf before purchasing his return ticket.

This sort of thing happened to my daughter when she was 16 - I gave her a 16-25 railcard for her birthday, she went to St Albans (fare £2 with a railcard and £3 without) with some of her friends (some of whom had bought half fare tickets despite being 16) and on the way back was PFd £20. The RPI told her to appeal, sending in a copy of the railcard which we did, but we still had to pay the PF. Total outlay not £20 for no ticket, but about £25 when the coat of the original ticket and the cost of writing the letters is factored in......all for being £1 short on the fare.....and I could have brought her railcard for her to produce at Harpenden station for her to produce within 5 minutes of the train arriving.

The boot is on the other foot however when I buy a Network card on the assumption that I can use it to get a third off rail tickets in the south east as long as I buy them after 10am, and then after a couple of months find that I can't use it to buy a ticket during the afternoon that will allow me to return from London return between 4.30 and 7pm, or when I find that the station car park which should charge me £1 on a banlk holiday Monday actually charges £3.

I had a similar experience of attempting to overcharge with the Virgin Trains website a couple of days ago for a return journey from St Mary Cray to Stoke on Trent. I found that when I put the journey details in, got the train times and then went to the next screen headed "Next up, choose a ticket", the cheapest options shown were off peak single, on line only, £31.05 for the outward journey and off peak single £61.10 for the return journey in the evening of the followeing day. So the total fare comes to £92.15 and since the bottom of the page states "The prices displayed for this journey are Virgin Trains best fares. There may be alternatives with other operators", doubtless the average punter would spend £92.15 and consider from the wording that they had probably got a bargain compared with other ticket sites.

Only when you click on "other operators" are you taken to another page on the Virgin Trains site (nothing to do with "other operators") which offers you an off peak return for £62.10. But how many "normals" would think to do that?

So.....what is the most dishonest, apparently hoodwinking a traveller into paying an extra £30.15 for a journey, or unwittingly finding that you haven't got the railcard that you thought was in your wallet with you?

And that is doubtless why there was a reference to Gorillas at the start of this thread, although I think guerilla would be more apt. I don't know why they call them RPIs as in my case I stopped using FCC altogether for well over a year (because I found paying fares to them too stressful and I travelled by car or went over to a different TOC instead, and whilst I (as I had to pay the PF as my doughter was at school) lost £25 or thereabouts, they lost well over £100 in revenue from me.

Meanwhile, I wonder how many deliberate fare evaders are getting away with free rides due to barriers being left open in the evenings.

So yes, this sort of thing the way innocent travellers are being targetted as fare evaders) should be brought to the attention of the powers that be and unwary travellers who run the risk of a guerilla attack should their documents be out of order in some way.

 

[tbtc]

if the passenger makes a mistake by, for instance, leaving a railcard at home, then the very maximum amount of money possible is milked from them (in Richard Wilson's case about 20 times their original fare)

Okay, serious question, what would you have staff do when a passenger has incorrect documents or turns up on a service they are not entitled to?

Should the difference between the reduced fare and the maximum fare make any difference?

Turn a blind eye and say "I'll let you off this time, but..." and you encourage people to be lax in future (to not even bother buying at ticket if they know that they can purchase "cheap" tickets on the train on the off chance they are caught).

The argument on this thread seems to have moved from "railways are too confusing for normal people to use" to "railways are too confusing for normal people to get the cheapest possible fare". Progress, of sorts...

 

[Bedpan]

What would be wrong with requiring people to produce a railcard at a certain point within so many days, rathyer like vehicle documents when you can't show them to the police. I realise that you would only be allowed 1 or 2 chances as otherwise people wouldn't bother taking their railcards with them, but at lkeast that would be fair on people who have made a genuine mistake.

 

[tbtc]

What would be wrong with requiring people to produce a railcard at a certain point within so many days, rathyer like vehicle documents when you can't show them to the police. I realise that you would only be allowed 1 or 2 chances as otherwise people wouldn't bother taking their railcards with them, but at lkeast that would be fair on people who have made a genuine mistake.

So do you charge them the full fare in the meantime?

 

[Bedpan]

As far as being on a service they are not entitled to - that is a more difficult tune to call. Has somebody got on a different service because they have made a mistake or have they done it deliberately? Fair enough to charge the full fare less the price paid for the ticket they have unless they present themself to the ticket inspector/guard as (or if possible before) they join the train, and sometimes even if they do present themselves.

Actually I have found it a bit galling from a personal point of view when I have seen people let off for one thing or another - bearing in mind what happened to my daughter.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So do you charge them the full fare in the meantime?

Maybe, can't see any problem in that - although allow credit for the amount they have paid already.

 

[tbtc]

As far as being on a service they are not entitled to - that is a more difficult tune to call. Has somebody got on a different service because they have made a mistake or have they done it deliberately? Fair enough to charge the full fare less the price paid for the ticket they have unless they present themself to the ticket inspector/guard as (or if possible before) they join the train, and sometimes even if they do present themselves.

Actually I have found it a bit galling from a personal point of view when I have seen people let off for one thing or another - bearing in mind what happened to my daughter

This is the problem that I have. I pay my fare, I decide whether to go for "cheap" or "flexible" tickets. Other passengers on the train may not have a ticket, or may have an invalid one. Yes, there might have been a queue at the ticket office, or they might not have realised the validity of their ticket. But people push their luck, and they see other people not getting taken to task for not having a valid ticket, which encourages others...

...but if a Guard tries to force anyone to pay for a full price ticket he becomes a "Nazi" or a "Jobsworth" or a "Gorilla"...

For some reason the perceptions appear to be different on railways. I wouldn't turn up at the football without a season ticket and expect them to let me watch the match for free. I wouldn't deliberately turn up for a Doctors appointment at a time that was more convenient for me (than the time I had booked). I wouldn't expect to pay for my shopping without cash/debit card. Most people wouldn't. Yet, there's a sense of entitlement on the railways, a sense that the rules don't apply to certain people...

 

[4SRKT]

So do you charge them the full fare in the meantime?

It's really quite obvious, although the answer clearly won't appeal to your attitude that there can never be any such thing as an honest mistake, and that absolutely everyone must be on the fiddle all the time.

You offer the passenger a choice, between paying the excess up to the full fare, or supplying their name and address and committing to turn up at a railway station with a railcard with validity for the day of travel (i.e. not hurriedly purchased as soon as they get off the train). This allows the innocent to correct their mistake, and no bolt holes for the guilty. Frankly if the production of documents later is good enough for the Police, it should be good enough for a TOC.

Much easier though to assume everyone is a crook.

 

[Bedpan]

This is the problem that I have. I pay my fare, I decide whether to go for "cheap" or "flexible" tickets. Other passengers on the train may not have a ticket, or may have an invalid one. Yes, there might have been a queue at the ticket office, or they might not have realised the validity of their ticket. But people push their luck, and they see other people not getting taken to task for not having a valid ticket, which encourages others...

...but if a Guard tries to force anyone to pay for a full price ticket he becomes a "Nazi" or a "Jobsworth" or a "Gorilla"...

For some reason the perceptions appear to be different on railways. I wouldn't turn up at the football without a season ticket and expect them to let me watch the match for free. I wouldn't deliberately turn up for a Doctors appointment at a time that was more convenient for me (than the time I had booked). I wouldn't expect to pay for my shopping without cash/debit card. Most people wouldn't. Yet, there's a sense of entitlement on the railways, a sense that the rules don't apply to certain people...

Maybe you wouldn't... but FOOTBALL:-
at the club I support there is a membership scheme for buying cheaper tickets - like a railcard except you only get £2 off the purchase price. You have to give your membership number when you buy the tickets, either on line, at the ticket office or over the phone, and collect them when you arrive at the match. If you inadvertantly leave your membership card at home, you will still be given the tickets if you provide your address. Nobody says - "Sorry, you have forgotten your card, I can't let you in unless you buy another ticket". Using the football analogy, Railway Rovers would doubtless say that you would have to buy the most expensive ticket available even if you only wanted to sit behind the goal. And if you tried to get inside the ground anyway, despite not having your ticket/card with you, they would tell you that you have to pay twice the admission charge or £X, whichever is the greater, if you want to stay, whereas all other clubs wouldf at he worst just eject you from the ground.

DOCTOR:- I can't think (although I have never done it) there is anything wrong in turning up early and saying "Any chance of being seen earlier/later than my appointment as ....(excuse). They can only say no, although of course you'd probably have phoned first, particularly if you were advertently running late, and they would be happy to change the appointment with out charging a penalty.

I have missed a dental appointment out of pure stupidity on my part though, I received a letter to tell me and I was warned that if I did it again I would be charged a missed appointment fee - which was about £10, a fraction of the cost of what I pay for dental treatment, not 20 oded times more.

SHOPPING:-

More difficult to comment as it depends on what sort of shop - but a couple of years ago I went to M&S (I'm using the example as it was a big store rather than a corner shop. I wanted to buy a watch, it was the last one there of theat style, but found that I had left my wallet in the car. The assistant put the watch undert the counter for me whilst I went to the car to get my wallet. I once went ot my local pub with my parents and walked out without paying as I thought my Dad had paid and he thougtht I had paid - we only realised when the landlord mentioned it next time we went in. I paid for the meal and bought him a drink - he didn't try to charge me £X or double the cost as he knew it was an innocent mistake.

And when somebody short changes me in a shop (or a station booking office, although I cannot say that they have done at a station) I can't tell if its done deliberately but either way, I can't ask them to give me £X or double the difference.

Yes, I agree, the perceptions do appear to be different on the railways.

 

[Clip]

Right, Forget all the hyperbole about ticekting systems and what not and get back to the OP.

The advert which i have now seen is him trying to ask the automated system to get from Manchester Victoria to Harrogate.And having problems with it recognising what he is saying..

Thats a perfectly good example of someone making an enquiry over the telephone yet some of you say this is impossible for someone to do.. Amazing.

 

[Bedpan]

What, are you saying that its a speech recognition system that doesn't recognise his voice? (Sorry, I haven't seen the trailer).

 

[4SRKT]

Maybe you wouldn't... but FOOTBALL:-
at the club I support there is a membership scheme for buying cheaper tickets - like a railcard except you only get £2 off the purchase price. You have to give your membership number when you buy the tickets, either on line, at the ticket office or over the phone, and collect them when you arrive at the match. If you inadvertantly leave your membership card at home, you will still be given the tickets if you provide your address. Nobody says - "Sorry, you have forgotten your card, I can't let you in unless you buy another ticket". Using the football analogy, Railway Rovers would doubtless say that you would have to buy the most expensive ticket available even if you only wanted to sit behind the goal. And if you tried to get inside the ground anyway, despite not having your ticket/card with you, they would tell you that you have to pay twice the admission charge or £X, whichever is the greater, if you want to stay, whereas all other clubs wouldf at he worst just eject you from the ground.

DOCTOR:- I can't think (although I have never done it) there is anything wrong in turning up early and saying "Any chance of being seen earlier/later than my appointment as ....(excuse). They can only say no, although of course you'd probably have phoned first, particularly if you were advertently running late, and they would be happy to change the appointment with out charging a penalty.

I have missed a dental appointment out of pure stupidity on my part though, I received a letter to tell me and I was warned that if I did it again I would be charged a missed appointment fee - which was about £10, a fraction of the cost of what I pay for dental treatment, not 20 oded times more.

SHOPPING:-

More difficult to comment as it depends on what sort of shop - but a couple of years ago I went to M&S (I'm using the example as it was a big store rather than a corner shop. I wanted to buy a watch, it was the last one there of theat style, but found that I had left my wallet in the car. The assistant put the watch undert the counter for me whilst I went to the car to get my wallet. I once went ot my local pub with my parents and walked out without paying as I thought my Dad had paid and he thougtht I had paid - we only realised when the landlord mentioned it next time we went in. I paid for the meal and bought him a drink - he didn't try to charge me £X or double the cost as he knew it was an innocent mistake.

And when somebody short changes me in a shop (or a station booking office, although I cannot say that they have done at a station) I can't tell if its done deliberately but either way, I can't ask them to give me £X or double the difference.

Yes, I agree, the perceptions do appear to be different on the railways.

Nice post. There are basically only two types of poster on this forum. One is pro-customer, the other pro-TOC.

 

[Greenback]

I think tbtc was trying to make the point that people who expect to travel without a ticket would not necessarily have the same expectation fo getting into a football match without a ticket.

In my experience, most places that offer discounts to certain sections of the communtiy ask for proof of eligibility from those entitled to such discounts. If there are cheaper cinema tickets for students, I wouldn't expect to get a cheaper ticket without my student ID.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

In my experience, most places that offer discounts to certain sections of the communtiy ask for proof of eligibility from those entitled to such discounts. If there are cheaper cinema tickets for students, I wouldn't expect to get a cheaper ticket without my student ID.

And would you expect to be allowed in to see the film if you had left your student ID at home and thus had no way of proving whether your prebooked tickets were valid?

 

[Greenback]

No, I wouldn't! Our local place says that if you pre book tickets you MUST show proof of eligibility when you pick the tickets up. As I don;t qualify for any discounts, however, I don't know how strictly this is enforced in reality.

 

[4SRKT]

And would you expect to be allowed in to see the film if you had left your student ID at home and thus had no way of proving whether your prebooked tickets were valid?

Of course not, but the fact that another organisation is as draconian as a TOC don't make either of them right. Some means of separating the genuine mistakes from the cheats wouldn't really be that hard, as I suggested upthread. God knows, if the Police can manage it, a TOC can if it could be bothered. It does however make the world much simpler if you assume everyone is continually on the fiddle. That doesn't necessarily make the world a pleasant place though.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8wSzLrpvrI - If someone could tell me where 'Harrowgate' is, I'd be most pleased, closest I can get is Harrogate or Harrow.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soq27h3i3Gc&feature=related - I take it this will also be featured.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Room_101_TV_episodes - Look under 'Series 2, Episode 1' and what he successfully got banned - is this the same Richard Wilson?

 

[Greenback]

Of course not, but the fact that another organisation is as draconian as a TOC don't make either of them right. Some means of separating the genuine mistakes from the cheats wouldn't really be that hard, as I suggested upthread. God knows, if the Police can manage it, a TOC can if it could be bothered. It does however make the world much simpler if you assume everyone is continually on the fiddle. That doesn't necessarily make the world a pleasant place though.

I have previously argued (or at least supported jonmorris0844's argument!)that there should be a system that allows people who make an honest mistake to be refunded later once a year, in line with season ticket holders.

The sad fact is, that quite a few people try and fiddle their way to cheaper or free travel. Perhaps lower fares might help, perhaps not. Sadly we don't live in a pleasant world.

 

[boing_uk]

As a a bit of an engineering enthusiast, I would much prefer to see a programme on Network Rail and their engineering practices and comparing them to those of, say, British Rail or our European counterparts...

From the adverts for the programme, it looks like its going to be a condensed version of something like "Airline", with stupid pax complaining about non things. And the voice recognition system on Train Tracker is nowhere near as bad as they are making out either.

 

[tbtc]

It's really quite obvious, although the answer clearly won't appeal to your attitude that there can never be any such thing as an honest mistake, and that absolutely everyone must be on the fiddle all the time.

You offer the passenger a choice, between paying the excess up to the full fare, or supplying their name and address and committing to turn up at a railway station with a railcard with validity for the day of travel (i.e. not hurriedly purchased as soon as they get off the train). This allows the innocent to correct their mistake, and no bolt holes for the guilty. Frankly if the production of documents later is good enough for the Police, it should be good enough for a TOC.

Much easier though to assume everyone is a crook.

I wish I could share your optimism

So anyone without a ticket found on a train (or with the wrong ticket) just has to promise the Guard that they'll pay the fare another day? You don't think that some people might not turn up and pay the fare? Or people will give false addresses/ have false ID (or claim that they must have left their ID in the house with their tickets)?

Why would anyone bother to purchase a train ticket when they know that the biggest "penalty" (*if* they get caught) is just to pay the regular fare?

As others have said, you wouldn't assume you could turn up without the right documents at shops/ cinemas/ football clubs etc - imagine a youth trying to buy beer in a pub/ offy without ID - it's a fact of life elsewhere in the country, why do we persist in the "fare dodging is a victimless crime" argument here?

Anyhow, getting back to the programme, the "premise" is that the telephone "helpline" can't understand the difference between "Manchester" and "Kyle of Lochalsh"? Is this an everyday occurrence? Cue some ignorant stereotypes about how outsourced call centre people can't cope with simple words like Manchester? Great, just the kind of publicity the railway needs. I can understand people getting confused between (say) Berwick in Sussex and Berwick on Tweed, but come on :roll:

 

[northwichcat]

Showed Wilson on board a Northern 150 in the opening sequence complaining of a horrible noise. Was he on the one that sounds like a steam engine or just a normal one?

Gave a fair bit of detail related to FGW problems in the first 10 minutes.

 

[headshot119]

Currently watching Dispatches. Not sure what to think so far. A lot of it seems to be media exaggeration. Usual stuff is coming up traveling on the wrong train with advance tickets, and off peak timings.

EDIT

The guy has admitted to traveling without his senior railcard, and is complaining about being issues with a UPFN.

 

[transportphoto]

Just watched the first part - they don't seem to understand that in this 'simple' ticketing there is no such thing as a 'off-peak train' :roll:

Interesting - I shall be watching to the end!

 

[MidnightFlyer]

'Theresa Villiers,
Trains Minister'

Oh dear. Compelling though.

 

[yorkie]

The railway companies do shoot themselves in the foot though.

Take this video, now firstly the fare is indeed extortionate, but the Off Peak would do, as I doubt he needs to leave Euston before 0905. So that's £40 saved. However the railways do not make it clear that tickets can be excessed if they are not valid, so if you are unsure and confused there is no harm getting the Off Peak and then excessing to the Anytime if required. As the railways constantly threaten people and don't make it clear when people are not to be 'punished' for not having the 'correct' ticket, you can't blame people for panicking (though they do need educating so they don't get ripped off). Also the off peak single itself is twice the price it should be. Really, the railways should be charging single leg pricing and it should be clearer the off peak is the right ticket, so then he'd be asked for £66.10. If the TOCs could get that right, it would be a non-story.

Additionally the split ticket issue is rather complex, it is not true that you have to book online and cannot get it at the station (as suggested) but there is a serious point here (though massively over simplified) that if he got the first ticket then he needs to obtain the second before the first runs out, or could be considered being 'over-distance' and penalised accordingly. The other concern is that some guards refuse to issue discounted tickets for onward travel in such circumstances, as they would argue ticket issuing facilities were available in the form of a machine. But this is not adequate. Again these problems are the TOCs own fault, in the form of the sub-standard machines, ludicrous anti-customer rules and of course the daft fare scheme where you are penalised for travelling a longer distance.

So the TOCs should expect to get a grilling, and expect bad publicity. Quite frankly they deserve it!

However I do wish programme makers would ensure that they do give people proper advice and don't perpetuate the scaremongering that the TOCs are guilty of themselves.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Twitter responses/comments on the show here.

 

[yorkie]

Anyhow, getting back to the programme, the "premise" is that the telephone "helpline" can't understand the difference between "Manchester" and "Kyle of Lochalsh"? Is this an everyday occurrence? Cue some ignorant stereotypes about how outsourced call centre people can't cope with simple words like Manchester? Great, just the kind of publicity the railway needs. I can understand people getting confused between (say) Berwick in Sussex and Berwick on Tweed, but come on :roll:

I suspect they found that the system can't cope with 'Manchester Victoria' and Manchester alone would be fine. As for Harrogate, again they probably hunted around for that one.

The guy has admitted to traveling without his senior railcard, and is complaining about being issues with a UPFN.

Well if the fare was reasonably proportionate, it wouldn't get air time. But as discussed in many other threads, the charges are excessive, and therefore this practice has been featured many times in the media, including Watchdog, and will continue to do so. The TOCs make a choice, and their choice has consequences. The consequences are that the general public are shocked and appalled and the media stick the knife in. So I don't have any sympathy for the TOCs, they know the score, and yet they continue with the practice.