Ex LNER (and Grand Central) Mark 4 sets for TfW

[Bikeman78]

Interesting to note that these trains run at 110 mph between Sandbach and Wilmslow. They don't mess about. Heading south it was already doing 105 mph through Chelford. Is this the first time that class 67s have run over 100 mph on passenger trains?

 

[43096]

Is this the first time that class 67s have run over 100 mph on passenger trains?

It's not the first time. When Wrexham & Shropshire services were diverted via the West Coast on diversion when the Chiltern route was blocked, they took advantage of the 110mph maximum.

 

[craigybagel]

Interesting to note that these trains run at 110 mph between Sandbach and Wilmslow. They don't mess about. Heading south it was already doing 105 mph through Chelford. Is this the first time that class 67s have run over 100 mph on passenger trains?

I believe the Wrexham and Shropshire services were able to run at 110 between Birmingham and Coventry, and for further than that when they were diverted via the WCML. Off the top of my head I can't think of any other examples however.

 

[Bikeman78]

I believe the Wrexham and Shropshire services were able to run at 110 between Birmingham and Coventry, and for further than that when they were diverted via the WCML. Off the top of my head I can't think of any other examples however.

Oh yes, good point. I had forgotten about them.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Interesting to note that these trains run at 110 mph between Sandbach and Wilmslow. They don't mess about. Heading south it was already doing 105 mph through Chelford. Is this the first time that class 67s have run over 100 mph on passenger trains?

Do you know the details of the relaxation?
I was once on a very late running up 67-hauled drag via Lincoln. Because of the late running and to avoid further delay the planned return working was covered by the King's Cross Thunderbird hauling that train from KX, and accordingly my train remained 67 hauled back to K.X. to balance. I still don't know whether it ran at 100 or 110 - it didn't hang about but it was dark - though the opinion generally seems to be the 67s were limited to 100 on the main East Coast.

 

[D6130]

It seems to be a wee bit wasteful if the class 67 thunderbirds were not permitted to travel at 125 mph when doing ECML drags.

 

[Merle Haggard]

It seems to be a wee bit wasteful if the class 67 thunderbirds were not permitted to travel at 125 mph when doing ECML drags.

Yes indeed, but there was said to be some issue about being over weight for 125 and some connection with having to have half-full fuel tanks, though after the drag to Doncaster and back that wouldn't seem to be an issue - on a later weekend's drag the 67 ran out of fuel at Spalding...

 

[craigybagel]

Do you know the details of the relaxation?
I was once on a very late running up 67-hauled drag via Lincoln. Because of the late running and to avoid further delay the planned return working was covered by the King's Cross Thunderbird hauling that train from KX, and accordingly my train remained 67 hauled back to K.X. to balance. I still don't know whether it ran at 100 or 110 - it didn't hang about but it was dark - though the opinion generally seems to be the 67s were limited to 100 on the main East Coast.

It seems to be a wee bit wasteful if the class 67 thunderbirds were not permitted to travel at 125 mph when doing ECML drags.

I'm not sure if a 67 is physically capable of reaching 125 whilst hauling and providing ETH for an entire MKIV rake on the ECML, even if it was allowed?

Interestingly enough, the TfW sets are officially limited to 110mph, as shown both on the prep slips filled out each day by the guards and also on newly fitted stickers inside the DVT cabs. Granted, it's a moot point anywhere as there's nowhere on the TfW network that this type of train would be permitted to run faster anyway - but there must be a reason for it, given that the locos are still stickered for 125mph and the coaches ran at that speed for decades on the ECML (and were designed for 140mph)

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It seems to be a wee bit wasteful if the class 67 thunderbirds were not permitted to travel at 125 mph when doing ECML drags.

There's a difference between hauling an IC225 set (9-car plus a DVT plus possibly a dead 91) on the ECML, and TfW's featherweight sets (4-car soon to be 5, plus DVT).
I doubt the former could reach 125mph even if allowed.
On the Crewe-Manchester run, 110mph is only possible between Sandbach and Cheadle Hulme, and the Wilmslow stop effectively rules the last bit out for TfW.
Performance hasn't been great anyway, with the TfW path not reliably used.

 

[43096]

It seems to be a wee bit wasteful if the class 67 thunderbirds were not permitted to travel at 125 mph when doing ECML drags.

Don't forget that running at 125mph is derived from the ability to stop the train in existing signal spacings. On HST/Mark 3/Mark 4 stock that comes from having a having brake pipe pressure control unit (E70, DW2 or DW3) at both ends of the train controlled from the leading cab so that the brake application propagates more quickly (i.e. from both ends). A Class 67 hauled Mark 4 set does not have that as the 67 can't control the rear E70/DW3 as it is done via the TDM system.

 

[Jacob Porrett]

1W96 17:14 Cardiff Central to Holyhead is a 67 Mk 4 set tonight if anyone is interested. On the Cardiff to Manchester/Crewe/Cardiff runs today it was 67015 + GC03 (HD06) set + DVT 82227.

 

[OrangeJuice]

How well are they getting 3 sets out in service each day?
And how many in total have had the SDO mods.now?

 

[sd0733]

How well are they getting 3 sets out in service each day?
And how many in total have had the SDO mods.now?

That can be a little variable! There's a couple of sets waiting parts/work which doesn't really help at the moment. It' generally can be OK but for a variety of reasons still not great.

6 have had the mods (HD01/02/04/05/06/07) although HD07 has never been in service and is due to head back to Landore imminently for 5th car adding so there's never been more than 5 available.

 

[sk688]

Planning to do Bath-Liverpool via the Marches route this Saturday and the journey planners give an option of either using the 0935 from Newport to Chester (a Cardiff to Holyhead service) , or the 0904 from Newport to Crewe

RTT shows the Cardiff to Holyhead as standard class only with a trolley , but the Cardiff Manchester service having a restaurant for first class passengers and pathed as a diesel locomotive

Is this an error , and if so which service would be more likely to have Mk4s on it ?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I don't think there are any Mk4 workings to Holyhead at weekends.
The Manchester might be a MK4 but I wouldn't expect a functioning restaurant car - maybe a trolley for part of the journey.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Don't forget that running at 125mph is derived from the ability to stop the train in existing signal spacings. On HST/Mark 3/Mark 4 stock that comes from having a having brake pipe pressure control unit (E70, DW2 or DW3) at both ends of the train controlled from the leading cab so that the brake application propagates more quickly (i.e. from both ends). A Class 67 hauled Mark 4 set does not have that as the 67 can't control the rear E70/DW3 as it is done via the TDM system.

In addition to that I believe traction and rolling stock has to be maintained and certified to a higher level to run at 125mph. IIRC 67023 was used to obtain the 125mph certification for the fleet, but pretty sure EWS used to maintain the 67s up to 110mph max ever since.

I do know a driver (since retired) who took a WSMR train up the WCML at 125mph. His excuse was that the passengers had been messed around enough and didn't deserve yet more delay by diversions.

 

[robert thomas]

I don't think there are any Mk4 workings to Holyhead at weekends.
The Manchester might be a MK4 but I wouldn't expect a functioning restaurant car - maybe a trolley for part of the journey.

I've seen hot food on the Manchesters on saturdays but it's a bit hit & miss

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I do know a driver (since retired) who took a WSMR train up the WCML at 125mph. His excuse was that the passengers had been messed around enough and didn't deserve yet more delay by diversions.

Reminds me of the class 40/Mid-day Scot driver in 1962 whose explanation for passing a red signal after delays was that "We've been hanging around long enough".
18 people died on that occasion.

Report on the Collision that occurred on 26th December 1962 between Winsford Station and Coppenhall Junction, Winsford in the London Midland Region British Railways :: The Railways Archive

Archive of UK railways documents

www.railwaysarchive.co.uk

The Mid-day Scot had also stopped at signal no. 114 which was held at red by the presence of the Birmingham train ahead. The train crew tried to telephone to Coppenhall Junction signalbox in accordance with the Rules, but they were unsuccessful because all the signal telephones on the Up lines had failed just previously. The driver then acted on his own initiative and, without seeing or ascertaining that the line was clear to the next signal as required by the Rules, he passed the signal at red and proceeded forward at a speed much in excess of that demanded by the circumstances. He saw the next signal (no. 110) change From red to yellow for the Birmingham train, and it seems that he assumed that it had become clear for his train and accelerated. Neither he nor the fireman saw the Birmingham train until the last moment and consequently the brakes were applied only just before the impact.

In the WSMR case, more than 110mph would not have been allowed on the WCML anyway, even if the class were cleared for that speed.

 

[DMUfan]

I‘m looking to take a trip on one of the TfW mk4 sets soon. I have two questions (forgive me I can’t find the answers in the thread)

1. Which set numbers are the Grand Central sets and do they operate particular diagrams or is it random with the ex LNER sets?
2. Is it still the 5 services each way to/from Cardiff and will there be more introduced in May?

Help much appreciated

 

[craigybagel]

I‘m looking to take a trip on one of the TfW mk4 sets soon. I have two questions (forgive me I can’t find the answers in the thread)

1. Which set numbers are the Grand Central sets and do they operate particular diagrams or is it random with the ex LNER sets?

HD04-07 are the ex GC sets. There are no set diagrams, the sets are all interchangeable

2. Is it still the 5 services each way to/from Cardiff and will there be more introduced in May?

Help much appreciated

Plans haven't been published yet so it's hard to say.

In addition to that I believe traction and rolling stock has to be maintained and certified to a higher level to run at 125mph. IIRC 67023 was used to obtain the 125mph certification for the fleet, but pretty sure EWS used to maintain the 67s up to 110mph max ever since.

Given the locos are still stickered for 125mph, and there have been no instructions issued to drivers not to drive at that speed, I would hope they are maintained for that speed - regardless of the fact they don't currently have any booked opportunities to go that fast.

I do know a driver (since retired) who took a WSMR train up the WCML at 125mph. His excuse was that the passengers had been messed around enough and didn't deserve yet more delay by diversions.

I'm glad he got to retire before his departure was forced on him. There's no place on the modern railway for such reckless behaviour.

 

[berneyarms]

I‘m looking to take a trip on one of the TfW mk4 sets soon. I have two questions (forgive me I can’t find the answers in the thread)

1. Which set numbers are the Grand Central sets and do they operate particular diagrams or is it random with the ex LNER sets?
2. Is it still the 5 services each way to/from Cardiff and will there be more introduced in May?

Help much appreciated

What actually happens each day is still somewhat the luck of the draw.

But what’s supposed to happen was posted earlier in this thread:

Irrespective of what timing loads on RTT etc show the only Booked Mk4 departures from Manchester are: 0627 and 1430, the Cardiff departures for Manchester are 1052 and 1855.

There are lots of Mods etc still taking place on the fleet, HD03 is at Landore still for SDO but is due out shortly with 67017 due to go down this week for testing it. Once That is released HD07 will take its place and will be the first to be reformed as a 5 car. There's also a programme of coupling replacements taking Place on a number of sets which takes them out of service at Crewe for approx 3 days.

There's still a lot of 'depot' training which needs to be undertaken, if any more sets than are currently used aren't on depots then this will never take place and crews then can't be passed out so it's better overall for a phased introduction.

Until May weekday diagrams are:
Mon-Fri 3 diagrams
06:27 Manchester to Cardiff
11:25 Cardiff to Holyhead
16:36 Holyhead to Cardiff

06:48 Cardiff-Holyhead
11:33 Holyhead to Cardiff
17:14 Cardiff to Holyhead

05:33 Holyhead to Cardiff
10:52 Cardiff to Manchester
14:30 Manchester to Cardiff
18:55 Cardiff to Manchester

Saturday 2 diagrams:
04:35 Cardiff-Manchester
08:30 Manchester-Cardiff
12:52 Cardiff-Manchester
16:30 Manchester-Swansea

04:54 Crewe-Cardiff
08:49 Cardiff-Manchester
12:30 Manchester-Cardiff
16:49 Cardiff-Manchester

 

[sd0733]

2. Is it still the 5 services each way to/from Cardiff and will there be more introduced in May?

It is most of the time but lots of changes going on at the moment. This week seems to have different Mk4 diagrams to normal but what happens on the day isn't necessarily the same as what's booked.
For example this week the regular 1V33/1W93/1V98 is booked units however was run as a Mk4 today.

In the May timetable it's planned to ramp up the Manchester services with all bar 1 diagram running from the timetable change. At this point the Holyhead Mk4s are planned to almost dissappear with just 1V91 and 1W96 (the former WAG services) booked Mk4s.
The last Manchester diagram making it every other hour is planned on starting 6th June.

 

[Craig37]

It is most of the time but lots of changes going on at the moment. This week seems to have different Mk4 diagrams to normal but what happens on the day isn't necessarily the same as what's booked.
For example this week the regular 1V33/1W93/1V98 is booked units however was run as a Mk4 today.

In the May timetable it's planned to ramp up the Manchester services with all bar 1 diagram running from the timetable change. At this point the Holyhead Mk4s are planned to almost dissappear with just 1V91 and 1W96 (the former WAG services) booked Mk4s.
The last Manchester diagram making it every other hour is planned on starting 6th June.

Will the second Holyhead diagram return? Capacity on the coast will be effected big time with the loss of the MK4s

 

[SuperLuke2334]

Will the second Holyhead diagram return? Capacity on the coast will be effected big time with the loss of the MK4s

At the moment from May the only Holyhead Mk4s will be 1V91 and 1W96.

 

[Jacob Porrett]

At the moment from May the only Holyhead Mk4s will be 1V91 and 1W96.

Only two diagrams for Holyhead/Cardiff?

 

[craigybagel]

Only two diagrams for Holyhead/Cardiff?

That is indeed the plan, just the traditional two services.

 

[berneyarms]

Presumably this is in an effort to provide resilience in terms of delivering the necessary number of sets each day on the Manchester route?

 

[Roger B]

Just back from a trip to South Wales.

I'd planned loco-hauled both ways, but southbound it was substituted for 158839 - though the journey was tolerable enough. I've always found the 158s pleasant to travel on (for a DMU): fairly spacious, good window alignment with tables, with less engine vibration and rattle than other classes.

But then I had 67020 with HD02 on 1W57 (10.52 from CDF) back to Manchester yesterday. The platform display said it was on time, then the usual one minute increments, until the dreaded 'Delayed'. And then an announement about issues leaving the depot. So huge relief when 82229 came into view. We left about 15 down - but I was in no hurry. And I loved every minute, from the 67 grunting behind me to the luxury of the Mk4.

Wow, sitting in a Mk4 was so luxurious compared to 'modern' trains. So spacious, comfortable, smooth, quiet, good alignment of tables with windows, and clear views down the coach. Head and shoulders above what you get in a Hitachi 80x, or a Pendo - and in my mind the refurbs have made them worse in that respect, not better. And the seat was so comfortable - unlike that on a 800 I was on from Cardiff to Swansea - who on earth thought that putting a metal bar under the seat padding was a good idea?

Top marks TfW for reminding me how good rail travel can be.

 

[D6130]

Only two diagrams for Holyhead/Cardiff?

I think you will find that's only one diagram.

 

[CW2]

I think you will find that's only one diagram.

Yes but no.
It is part of two separate diagrams, interworking with the Manchester workings.