London Buses Discussion

[Snow1964]

As far as I'm aware they are happening next year but it does seem incredibly long winded.

There was also a change last year to a route that ran to Royal Marsden hospital, Sutton as building work meant it couldn't reach its normal stops/stand. Possibly as some of the changes were about serving the expanded hospital they have been deferred until hospital has room for them.




== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Mar 2023 ==

A few changes occurring from Saturday

Route 427 is losing the Southall-Acton section (a change that was proposed back in 2017 changes with Elizabeth line consultations). Seems date has been brought forward from May as Abellio gain H32 and presumably can't staff an overlap.

The H32 changes from RATP with Scania Omnicities to Abellio with LT new routemaster

The H91 changes from RATP with hybrids to Metroline with LT new (9 year old) routemaster

It is likely that RATP will withdraw its remaining Omnicities (using displaced buses to convert routes 71, H98). There used to be hundreds of the type in London. Stagecoach still use them on 97 and handful on 96

Bus changes

Permanent changes to TfL bus routes including new routes and changes to first and last stops.

tfl.gov.uk

 

[MotCO]

It is likely that RATP will withdraw its remaining Omnicities (using displaced buses to convert routes 71, H98). There used to be hundreds of the type in London. Stagecoach still use them on 97 and handful on 96

The 71 is currently a mix of E400 EVs, Wright WHVs and Omnicities. Within London (just), you can still see Omnicities operated by Metrobus from Crawley on the 400 in Caterham.

 

[Busaholic]

Metroline have confirmed on a internal staff notice that it will be Brentford operated.

It was Metroline at Holloway which had their contract for NRM operation on the 24 replaced by Abellio, with the buses transferred to Battersea, a few years ago as the first such switch. Plus ca change.

 

[Snow1964]

The Wrightbus hydrogen double deckers operated by Metroline are generally still off the road

Of the 20, only 6 have been in service in 2023, 13 haven't been used since December, and 1 not been used for over 6 months.

Not sure of reason, but rumours circulating that suggest it is problems with refuelling with hydrogen.

London Vehicle Finder

Search current and historic bus routes and locations in London, Reading, Edinburgh. Created to help photographers track down ellusive vehicles.

lvf.io

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Mar 2023 ==

6th March

TfL have launched various consultations to change bus services (all rather long documents, so not going to quote them, as really need to open them to link the text and maps)

Brent Cross buses – proposed changes to routes 102, 189, 210, 232, 266, 316, 326 and C11

Brent Cross buses – proposed changes to routes 102, 189, 210, 232, 266, 316, 326 and C11

Update 31 July 2023 Today we have published our consultation report following this consultation. We received 258 responses to the consultation and would like to thank everyone that took part. After careful consideration of the consultation responses, we have

haveyoursay.tfl.gov.uk

Alperton and Stonebridge Park - Proposed changes to bus routes 79 and 83

Alperton and Stonebridge Park - Proposed changes to bus routes 79 and 83

Update 31 July 2023 Today we have published our consultation report following this consultation. We received 256 responses to the consultation and would like to thank everyone that took part. A range of views were expressed in response to consultation. Generally,

haveyoursay.tfl.gov.uk

Harold Wood and Upminster - proposed changes to bus routes 346, 347 and 497

Harold Wood and Upminster - proposed changes to bus routes 346, 347 and 497

Update 5 December 2024 In January 2024 we published our report following the public consultation proposing changes to bus routes 346, 347 and 497 in the London Borough of Havering. As part of that update, we informed that bus route 347, while originally proposed for

haveyoursay.tfl.gov.uk

Route 315 extension to Springfield Hospital, Tooting

Route 315 extension to Springfield Hospital

Update 24 October 2023 Today we have published our consultation report following this consultation. We received 399 responses to the consultation and would like to thank everyone that took part. After carefully considering all the responses, we have

haveyoursay.tfl.gov.uk

 

[Mikey C]

6th March

TfL have launched various consultations to change bus services (all rather long documents, so not going to quote them, as really need to open them to link the text and maps)

Brent Cross buses – proposed changes to routes 102, 189, 210, 232, 266, 316, 326 and C11

Nice to see an uncontroversial set of TfL changes for a change!

 

[greyman42]

When I visit London I notice that when two or more buses come to a halt at traffic lights, they stop only inches away from the bus in front. This seems to be a London practice as they don't seem to do it in other cities. Is there a reason for this?

 

[90sWereBetter]

If any route merits a conversion to double deckers, it must be the 112 between Ealing Broadway and North Finchley. Crush loading on a Metroline E200 along the North Circular is not a fun way to travel. I'm surprised it wasn't given the nod over routes like the 291 and 481 which have been recently converted to double deckers despite only using small length single deckers previously. Okay, the 291's conversion is partially down to the route being an Elizabeth Line feeder, but the 481 is a sleepy half-hourly route in south-west London.

I also noticed that RATP have refurbished their small batch of Volvo B5LHs with New Routemaster bodywork in operation around Harrow. When new these had the standard New Routemaster interior complete with bench seats (basically everything bar the rear door and second staircase). They now have turquoise grab poles and the blue/green RATP moquette, which looks so out of place.

A question for the floor, when Arriva London ordered their two batches of Enviro400H City for the 78 and 133, why were these specified with a generic TFL interior (the one used by Sullivan Buses and the former Hackney Community Transport) rather than with the standard Arriva interior?

 

[Mikey C]

If any route merits a conversion to double deckers, it must be the 112 between Ealing Broadway and North Finchley. Crush loading on a Metroline E200 along the North Circular is not a fun way to travel. I'm surprised it wasn't given the nod over routes like the 291 and 481 which have been recently converted to double deckers despite only using small length single deckers previously. Okay, the 291's conversion is partially down to the route being an Elizabeth Line feeder, but the 481 is a sleepy half-hourly route in south-west London.

I also noticed that RATP have refurbished their small batch of Volvo B5LHs with New Routemaster bodywork in operation around Harrow. When new these had the standard New Routemaster interior complete with bench seats (basically everything bar the rear door and second staircase). They now have turquoise grab poles and the blue/green RATP moquette, which looks so out of place.

A question for the floor, when Arriva London ordered their two batches of Enviro400H City for the 78 and 133, why were these specified with a generic TFL interior (the one used by Sullivan Buses and the former Hackney Community Transport) rather than with the standard Arriva interior?

As an aside, have they been retrofitted with opening windows now, as I recall they weren't previously modified unlike the actual Borismasters?

 

[Edsmith]

If any route merits a conversion to double deckers, it must be the 112 between Ealing Broadway and North Finchley. Crush loading on a Metroline E200 along the North Circular is not a fun way to travel. I'm surprised it wasn't given the nod over routes like the 291 and 481 which have been recently converted to double deckers despite only using small length single deckers previously. Okay, the 291's conversion is partially down to the route being an Elizabeth Line feeder, but the 481 is a sleepy half-hourly route in south-west London.

I also noticed that RATP have refurbished their small batch of Volvo B5LHs with New Routemaster bodywork in operation around Harrow. When new these had the standard New Routemaster interior complete with bench seats (basically everything bar the rear door and second staircase). They now have turquoise grab poles and the blue/green RATP moquette, which looks so out of place.

A question for the floor, when Arriva London ordered their two batches of Enviro400H City for the 78 and 133, why were these specified with a generic TFL interior (the one used by Sullivan Buses and the former Hackney Community Transport) rather than with the standard Arriva interior?

The 112 used to see double deckers regularly but can't anymore since it was rerouted in Ealing.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Mar 2023 ==

When I visit London I notice that when two or more buses come to a halt at traffic lights, they stop only inches away from the bus in front. This seems to be a London practice as they don't seem to do it in other cities. Is there a reason for this?

And what happens if the bus in front breaks down? Instructors usually tell trainees to keep that in mind and leave sufficient room.

 

[busesrusuk]

The VHR's were fitted with opening windows when refurbished - pic here:

London Utd VHR45205 May22

Heathrow Central, May 2022

www.flickr.com

 

[Mikey C]

The VHR's were fitted with opening windows when refurbished - pic here:

London Utd VHR45205 May22

Heathrow Central, May 2022

www.flickr.com

Thanks. I remember seeing them without opening windows after the Borismasters had been modified.

 

[Snow1964]

The VHR's were fitted with opening windows when refurbished - pic here:

London Utd VHR45205 May22

Heathrow Central, May 2022

www.flickr.com

But the pair Go Ahead used VHP1, VHP2 weren't done, and were taken out of service last June. Very short life, Presumably dumped somewhere now.

Incidentally GoAheads 3 prototype Volvo B9TL with Enviro400 bodies VE1-3 from 2008, are are still working in SW London. Now some of oldest buses in London, but days are numbered as new BYD-ADL electric buses are arriving.

 

[busesrusuk]

But the pair Go Ahead used VHP1, VHP2 weren't done, and were taken out of service last June. Very short life, Presumably dumped somewhere now.

Incidentally GoAheads 3 prototype Volvo B9TL with Enviro400 bodies VE1-3 from 2008, are are still working in SW London. Now some of oldest buses in London, but days are numbered as new BYD-ADL electric buses are arriving.

Sorry, but that statement is incorrect. Both GAL examples had opening windows fitted - pics below taken in early 2022. Both last ran in service in Jun 2022. My understanding is that both of these vehicles are withdrawn and won't return to service. With regard to VE1 -3, two have moved up the road to Merton with VE1 still at Sutton...

HTIOI

GAL VHP1 Apr20

Wandsworth Town Hall, Apr 2020

www.flickr.com

GAL VHP2 May20

Wandsworth, May 2020

www.flickr.com

 

[chopperman21]

Confirmation in latest tender announcement today that RATP have lost the route C3 with it returning to Abellio. But what happens to the Optare Metrodeckers (pic) released, 9+1 from the Route C3 and 2 more from the Route 23?
Sold/Return to leasing company as they are known to be troublesome and aids with standardisation? Or reused like some others on the Route 28.
Even then I believe there are still some BYD/ADL buses spare (from Route 94 etc) that could be used instead on the Route 28?

But overall I am not sure RATP will be complaining too much about this announcement, (well at least publicly) as it allows them to rebase the Route 23 contract, you would assume with a much more sustainable profit margin. And loses the C3 which was obviously not very sustainable for them.

 

[76020]

I see that some of the new Wright Electroliners are now running on Route 111 with the whole route to be operated by these new buses sometime next month, the rest of the route is operated by New Routemasters, so can someone tell me where are the redundant LT's going next month? Also I think that this is the first TFL route that will be permanently converted from LT's to Electric Buses, the 148 Route did have Enviro 400EV's a couple of years ago which replaced a lot of the LT's but this was only temporary.

 

[Dstock7080]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-65091373

A new fast service bus network has been announced for London's outer boroughs.
Six new routes will be created and four incorporated into the 'Superloop' network, complete with distinct branding.
The plans propose a fast service to make more stops linking many of the peripheral boroughs.
The network is part of London Mayor Sadiq Khan's effort to compensate for the impact of the ultra-low emission zone expansion, due to start in August.
New services are planned between North Finchley and Harrow, North Finchley and Walthamstow and between Walthamstow to the Royal Docks via Ilford.
A more frequent X26 route connecting Heathrow and West Croydon is also being implemented, the mayor's office said.
Four existing express bus routes - 607, X26, X140 and X68 - will be incorporated into the Superloop.

Mayor of London launches new Superloop network:

 

[matt_world2004]

The 607 at its nearest goes 1.2 miles from Hayes and Harlington Station so that map is wrong

 

[duncanp]

Having lived in Walthamstow from 1991 to 2018, I am sceptical about the "superloop" concept unless measures can be put in place to give buses priority over other traffic and make the service more reliable.

The route from Walthamstow to North Finchley duplicates the existing service 34 between Walthamstow and Arnos Grove for example. Would the new "superloop" bus be in addition to the 34, or would the 34 have to be altered or curtailed as part of this implementation?

If you have to alter or curtail existing bus routes, then that means that some people will be deprived of a service, or have to walk further to catch a bus that goes where they want to go.

I did once do a day trip round a similar route to the superloop as follows:-

• 69 : Walthamstow - Stratford
• 108 : Stratford - Lewisham
• 75 : Lewisham - Croydon
• X26 : Croydon - Kingston
• 65 : Kingston - Ealing
• 112 : Ealing - Brent Cross
• 102 : Brent Cross - Edmonton
• 34 : Edmonton - Walthamstow

Unsurprisingly it took all day because of traffic conditions, and waits for connecting buses.

But if Sadiq Khan can't introduce the required bus priority measures, he might as well not bother with this gimmick, which seems to me to be designed to placate those who are cheesed off with his ULEZ expansion.

 

[Deerfold]

The 607 at its nearest goes 1.2 miles from Hayes and Harlington Station so that map is wrong

The map is not of current services (though some services currently exist, there will be new ones and alterations).

 

[MPW]

Implemented "properly" this could go a long way to modal shift. Bus priority is key and unfortunately very difficult given the councils involved in outer boroughs. As a Bromley resident it feels like the council is actively anti-transit.

As an example journey, going from Petts Wood (Orpington) to Heathrow takes 1hr45 minutes! The Elizabeth Line now gives a more comfortable option than the Piccadilly but doesn't save that much time (a few minutes) from these parts given the geography. If the Bromley to Croydon express route extended all the way to Heathrow it would be a simple and convenient option. BUT much less so if stuck in traffic.

SE London could have an amazing bus network with some further interventions to speed things up.

 

[Bletchleyite]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-65091373

Mayor of London launches new Superloop network:

I genuinely thought that, with its stupid Elon Musk style name and disrespectful (to the design) multicoloured roundel, was an early April Fool.

Great idea, appalling marketing.

 

[station_road]

As an example journey, going from Petts Wood (Orpington) to Heathrow takes 1hr45 minutes! The Elizabeth Line now gives a more comfortable option than the Piccadilly but doesn't save that much time (a few minutes) from these parts given the geography. If the Bromley to Croydon express route extended all the way to Heathrow it would be a simple and convenient option. BUT much less so if stuck in traffic.

The predecessor of the current X26 was the 726, which had various routes over the years but when it finished in 2005 ran from Bromley to Heathrow - it was timetabled to take 2 hours 18 minutes during the day (on a Saturday - a bit quicker on weekdays and evenings), and from memory was often late even then.

 

[Goldfish62]

The predecessor of the current X26 was the 726, which had various routes over the years but when it finished in 2005 ran from Bromley to Heathrow - it was timetabled to take 2 hours 18 minutes during the day (on a Saturday - a bit quicker on weekdays and evenings), and from memory was often late even then.

GoAhead seem to manage to run the current X26 quite well.

It certainly needs an uplift in frequency - it's absolutely rammed much of the time.

 

[MotCO]

The predecessor of the current X26 was the 726, which had various routes over the years but when it finished in 2005 ran from Bromley to Heathrow - it was timetabled to take 2 hours 18 minutes during the day (on a Saturday - a bit quicker on weekdays and evenings), and from memory was often late even then.

Would the X26 be (re-)extended to Bromley? I would have thought that the Bromley to Bexleyheath link should be extended to Bluewater so that you can connect with Ensignbus' X80 to Lakeside, and link Lakeside with Ilford.

Whilst I can understand the proposals, I think that it is limited to only people wanting to make a journey within each segment - it would not be attractive to make numerous changes if, for example, you wanted to travel from Ilford to Hendon. An alternative suggestion is to make Superloop one route with an hourly service, and then to help overcome congestion delays, make all the segments half-hourly. That probably does not suit TfL's 'all routes travel from end to end' mantra.

The plans propose a fast service to make more stops linking many of the peripheral boroughs.

Does that mean the routes are limited stop, or do they 'make more stops' making the X26 slower?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Mar 2023 ==

As a Bromley resident it feels like the council is actively anti-transit.

I was formerly a Bromley resident. There were plans to build 30 dwellings on a council owned site but provide only 3 parking spaces for the disabled - nothing else, despite the area having yellow lines and insufficient on-street parking for existing residents. Their reason was that there were numerous local bus and train services, but that means that if you are a taxi driver, drive a tradesman's van, work unsocial hours etc, you can't live there. So no, I don't think they are anti-transit, just anti-logic.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Looking at the map I feel there should at least be an overlapping section in the south of London, I’d add an “inner suburb” leg which would cover the former 54 route from West Croydon to Woolwich and possibly Thamesmead, an area of London which desperately needs more rapid transit links.

I’d also add the 89 bus route if there are to be radial links to this new Superloop network of buses.

 

[matt_world2004]

The map is not of current services (though some services currently exist, there will be new ones and alterations).

I don't think they are rerouting the 607 the white city uxbridge service is the 607, the Heathrow/Harrow service is the x140 and the Heathrow Croydon service is the x26.

 

[Snow1964]

TfL have issued consultation and maps on Superloop

Superloop - proposals for a network of limited-stop express buses connecting outer London

-update starts - Consultation reports have been published for routes SL10, SL1, SL2 and SL3, including our responses to the issues raised for SL1 and SL10. For further information about these and to read the reports, please visit: SL1 between North Finchley and

haveyoursay.tfl.gov.uk

The Superloop brand would be designed to work with the iconic London Buses brand by using a new Roundel and bus livery to ensure clear identification of the new service, but still recognisable as part of the London Buses network. The new branding would also feature on maps, timetables and other pieces of customer information.

Next steps for the proposed Superloop

The first new part of the proposed Superloop would be a new route which would link Harrow with North Finchley. We will work with the relevant boroughs on this initial proposal and will carry out a public consultation to understand customer and stakeholder feedback on the proposed route. This feedback will then be used to help shape our decision making on how a new route could be introduced.

Following that, we will also consult on future sections of the orbital bus network. Potential future sections would, subject to consultation, provide limited stop links between:

• North Finchley and Walthamstow
• Walthamstow and the Royal Docks
• route X239 connecting Canary Wharf and Grove Park, (which was consulted on as part of the Silvertown Tunnel bus network)
• Bromley and Bexleyheath
• Croydon and Bromley

 

[deltic]

I was formerly a Bromley resident. There were plans to build 30 dwellings on a council owned site but provide only 3 parking spaces for the disabled - nothing else, despite the area having yellow lines and insufficient on-street parking for existing residents. Their reason was that there were numerous local bus and train services, but that means that if you are a taxi driver, drive a tradesman's van, work unsocial hours etc, you can't live there. So no, I don't think they are anti-transit, just anti-logic.

There are plenty of car free developments in London - if you don't have a car why should the price you pay be inflated by a car parking space you don't want

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Mar 2023 ==

Whilst I can understand the proposals, I think that it is limited to only people wanting to make a journey within each segment - it would not be attractive to make numerous changes if, for example, you wanted to travel from Ilford to Hendon. An alternative suggestion is to make Superloop one route with an hourly service, and then to help overcome congestion delays, make all the segments half-hourly. That probably does not suit TfL's 'all routes travel from end to end' mantra.

The X26 takes over 2hrs to travel from Croydon to Heathrow - a service that did the whole proposed Superloop route would possibly take 10-12 hours and be so unreliable as to be unworkable. A journey like Ilford to Hendon is always going to be far faster by rail even if it takes a circuitous route.

 

[Geordie driver]

When I visit London I notice that when two or more buses come to a halt at traffic lights, they stop only inches away from the bus in front. This seems to be a London practice as they don't seem to do it in other cities. Is there a reason for this?

I would do this to stop pedestrians and cyclists crossing between the vehicles, not in London. Seen it happen all over.

 

[duncanp]

The X26 takes over 2hrs to travel from Croydon to Heathrow - a service that did the whole proposed Superloop route would possibly take 10-12 hours and be so unreliable as to be unworkable

The Birmingham Outer Circle route 11A/11C is 27 miles long, and a full circuit can take up to three hours.

It is no longer a continuous circle, with the service being split into two overlapping halves since 2021.

As someone who lives on this route, I can testify that it suffers from frequent delays and bunching. It is not uncommon for there to be nothing for 20 minutes, and then three or four buses come at the same time, on a nominal frequency of every 7 - 8 minutes during the day.

Similarly with the Petite Ceinture in Paris. This used to be a bus route route the outer perimeter of the 20 arrondissements, but even then it was split into three separate routes, the PC1, PC2 and PC3.

Most of the Petite Ceinture has been converted to a tram route, but the service is still split into Tram 3a and Tram 3b, with bus PC covering the Western part of the circle.

The whole Superloop route would be many times longer than the Birmingham Outer Circle and the Petite Ceinture, and even if split into several overlapping routes as proposed, it will suffer from reliability problems, unless you can have proper bus priority measures that enable consistent journey times.

I don't think anyone would realistically travel from Ilford to Hendon via the Superloop bus, and the service shouldn't be designed with such journeys in mind.

Rather you need to have frequent services on each leg (at least every 15 minutes) and as far as possible same stop interchange with buses continuing in the same direction round the circle. Perhaps the route numbers could have the A and C suffixes as in Birmingham, so that people would not inadvertently catch a bus going in the wrong direction.