Northern - Is this worth appealing?

[Poppleropples]

Hi, hoping for some advice before wasting time and energy on an appeal.

Travelled earlier on a Northern train, Saltaire to Leeds. There is a ticket vending machine at Saltaire where I intended to purchase the ticket, however I was travelling with a small baby, it's been minus 8 here overnight, the path to the machine wasn't gritted/very icy and slippy in front of it, and it is also on a slope/not level ground. Didn't use the machine as to be honest it didn't feel safe to do so with a small baby strapped to me, as I thought there would be a real risk of falling face first. I also often buy tickets on the train as conductors always seem more than accommodating to sell.

On this occasion the conductor also had an enforcement person with them checking tickets, they took my details and issued a penalty fare but in the same breath they also told me not to pay it (they actually said 'don't pay it') as I was travelling with a baby, icy platform etc, just appeal it and they'll cancel it. I'm left quite confused and I suspect they might just say this to avoid conflict.

What do you think, is this worth going through the appeals? I would like to on principle, but don't want to get invested in it if unlikely to succeed. Cheers.

 

[ainsworth74]

I don't suppose you got any photos of the slippery path?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

By the letter of the law, you are in the wrong, in that there was an opportunity to buy a ticket before travelling. To win the argument, you would have to show that no reasonable person in your position could have bought a ticket, and then you would have to rely on the appeals people accepting that a reasonable excuse is enough to override the letter of the law.

It seems to me that this is a winnable argument - but not easily in that you would probably have to get the local press interested to persuade the railway to accept the reasonable excuse.

 

[ChewChewTrain]

In future, it’s worth remembering that there’s always the possibility of buying an E-ticket using your phone. It may be worth setting it all up so you can do it at short notice.

However, that’s not relevant to your case here because you’re not required to take advantage of that option where it’s otherwise accepted that you have a good enough reason for not having bought a ticket. (After all, not everyone has a smartphone, even if it may seem like they do.)

 

[AlterEgo]

Never accept a penalty of any kind where you’re told “don’t worry it’ll be cancelled if you appeal”. They’re issuing it for a reason. If they thought genuinely it would be cancelled they’d have just sold you the ticket and not penalty fared you.

You should appeal and state your reasoning although it’s likely this may end up at Stage 3, meaning it will take multiple attempts to overturn with no guarantee of success.

I’m not familiar with Saltaire station - how did you access platform 1 to get the train to Leeds? And where is the ticket machine? As far as I can tell there’s only one way down that platform, down the sloping accessible path.

 

[some bloke]

Hello @Poppleropples - I'm sorry to hear about this: it sounds like they were being a nuisance.

You can post a draft on here for comment.

You could say that you are appealing because of a "compelling reason": there were "no facilities in operation" to buy tickets. That would mean the company has to provide evidence against your factual claim rather than you having to prove it.

You could say something like that "in operation" must mean "usable, without undue risk to safety, by a reasonable range of passengers" and that this cannot reasonably mean you needing to put your baby down on the icy ground (or whatever you think might have been needed to ensure your safety).

Have a look at Regulations 6(2)(a), 16(4), and 16(5)(iii).

The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018

These Regulations make provision for the charging of penalty fares for the failure to produce, when required to do so, a ticket or other authority authorising a person to travel by train or to be present in a compulsory ticket area at a station.

www.legislation.gov.uk

The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018

These Regulations make provision for the charging of penalty fares for the failure to produce, when required to do so, a ticket or other authority authorising a person to travel by train or to be present in a compulsory ticket area at a station.

www.legislation.gov.uk

(The Regulations have been amended recently but none of the amendments are to those: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2022/1094/made)


And you can add a second ground of appeal: there is a compelling reason even if it is decided that there were facilities in "operation": it would be unreasonable to expect you to buy a ticket where you had a reasonable belief that the path was hazardous to you and/or your baby.

Getting a temperature record for a local weather station may be useful, though it being that cold, we might hope that a reading from somewhere local-ish may be enough. (Don't ask me what local means - it doesn't matter much!)

 

[Bertie the bus]

The ticket machine is at the top of the ramp. You had to walk past it and down the icy ramp to get to the platform so it isn’t a great excuse, especially when combined with your admission that you regularly don’t buy tickets before you board.

There is no harm in trying it as an excuse with Northern but the likelihood of success probably isn’t great.

 

[AlterEgo]

The ticket machine is at the top of the ramp. You had to walk past it and down the icy ramp to get to the platform so it isn’t a great excuse, especially when combined with your admission that you regularly don’t buy tickets before you board.

There is no harm in trying it as an excuse with Northern but the likelihood of success probably isn’t great.

Thanks. The OP had to walk down the ramp and past the ticket machine to reach the platform and board the train, so it’s up to them if they want to spend their time appealing this Penalty Fare which seems to be correctly and fairly issued.

Nonetheless it is always worth appealing the first time, as it staves off the threat of prosecution which Northern would - in theory - be equally entitled to bring.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Never accept a penalty of any kind where you’re told “don’t worry it’ll be cancelled if you appeal”.

It isn't sensible to decline a Penalty Fare, because what almost always will happen if you do that is an MG11, which means you have a possible prosecution to deal with, and a non-appealable (in the same way) settlement which is likely to be rather higher than the £50 of a Penalty Fare.

If one is offered it should be accepted and appealed unless your case is VERY clear cut (e.g. a claim a ticket is invalid that is definitely valid), and even then it may be easier to resolve via a PF.

 

[AlterEgo]

It isn't sensible to decline a Penalty Fare, because what almost always will happen if you do that is an MG11, which means you have a possible prosecution to deal with, and a non-appealable (in the same way) settlement which is likely to be rather higher than the £50 of a Penalty Fare.

If one is offered it should be accepted and appealed unless your case is VERY clear cut (e.g. a claim a ticket is invalid that is definitely valid), and even then it may be easier to resolve via a PF.

Yes, my mistake - I meant to write don’t accept the story, rather than not accepting the penalty itself.

 

[30907]

What time of the morning was this?
The corner at the TVM is pretty much level (but may not immediately seem so).

 

[skyhigh]

Thanks. The OP had to walk down the ramp and past the ticket machine to reach the platform and board the train, so it’s up to them if they want to spend their time appealing this Penalty Fare which seems to be correctly and fairly issued.

There's a ticket machine on both platforms, placed in such a location that you physically have to walk past them to access the platform. It seems a fairly issued penalty fare to me.

 

[AlterEgo]

What time of the morning was this?
The corner at the TVM is pretty much level (but may not immediately seem so).

I don’t understand how that’s relevant if the OP went down the ramp anyway to get on the train, as others have suggested that’s the only access to Platform 1?

 

[308165]

I travelled through Saltaire earlier. Platforms were still covered in snow and ice (no sign of gritting), I can't imagine the slopes off the platform were much better as they are both well sheltered from light. You do have to pass the tvm to get to the platform but the extra time needed to traverse the ice safely might well remove time to use the ticket machine.

Interesting that this is the second thread about revenue enforcement on the Airedale line today - wonder if it was the same inspector who was later causing issues on the 1626 Leeds - Skipton.

 

[Ediswan]

I don't suppose you got any photos of the slippery path?

Google has an image in better conditions, dated October 2021 (extract below):
https://goo.gl/maps/1iWG22ZbWS4xnQpZ6

 

[AlterEgo]

There’s no good reason the OP didn’t use that TVM, let’s be honest.

The OP has to either pay the penalty fare or to appeal. I’d recommend paying the penalty fare myself, but if they feel like appealing they must have a good reason to do so. I’m not certain that the OP has a good reason. They had to use that path and pass the TVM to use the train, so there’s no additional risk to them in stopping to pay her fare as is required by the law.

 

[vinnym70]

I have a certain sympathy here but I suspect there were plenty of other paths encountered that were similarly icy/slippery that day, not just in railway-land.
The whole 'baby strapped to me' element in such conditions isn't something I'd contemplate in the first place to be honest, but I appreciate there may be extenuating circumstances to have to make the journey.
A picture would help in any appeal. I'm mildly curious about the general expectations of TOCs to ensure stations are safe to use in wintery conditions, especially where the stations may be unstaffed?

 

[Hadders]

The ticket machine for the Leeds bounds platform is at the top of the ramp, the decent is after you pass the ticket machine. As an aside I personally had an issue trying to purchase a ticket at Saltaire from the ticket machine on the Skipton bound platform as the screen was almost totally unresponsive.

There is no reason why the OP shouldn't appeal but I would not expect it to be successful.

 

[30907]

I don’t understand how that’s relevant if the OP went down the ramp anyway to get on the train, as others have suggested that’s the only access to Platform 1?

I read the OP as being worried about standing on an icy slope to get their ticket, but I may have misunderstood.

 

[AlterEgo]

I read the OP as being worried about standing on an icy slope to get their ticket, but I may have misunderstood.

Standing and using a ticket machine isn’t nearly as dangerous as going down a downward sloping path. I can’t believe this is being used as a justification for, on this occasion, the OP not purchasing a ticket, as opposed to all the other times they admit not using the machine with no excuse at all. This one’s best chalked up to experience.

 

[Class800]

I can't see a case either sadly, as I do see it unbearably harsh to punish someone in very unsafe conditions such as ice. But I would just see it as a sign of how harsh this world can be and how intolerant many people and organisations are. But there's no clear case according to prevailing regulations

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Mar 2023 ==

Standing and using a ticket machine isn’t nearly as dangerous as going down a downward sloping path. I can’t believe this is being used as a justification for, on this occasion, the OP not purchasing a ticket, as opposed to all the other times they admit not using the machine with no excuse at all. This one’s best chalked up to experience.

Maybe I agree, experience that we don't like in a considerate world and if the conditions are unsafe, maybe we just have to abandon the journey, just maybe, as we can't rely on organisations being flexible and considerate in conditions such as ice

Reminds me sadly of an incident over 10 years ago now with a supermarket who failed to grit their carpark and would not provide any free of charge means for people to carry their shopping safely back to the car in the ice.

 

[AlterEgo]

I can't see a case either sadly, as I do see it unbearably harsh to punish someone in very unsafe conditions such as ice. But I would just see it as a sign of how harsh this world can be and how intolerant many people and organisations are. But there's no clear case according to prevailing regulations

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Mar 2023 ==


Maybe I agree, experience that we don't like in a considerate world and if the conditions are unsafe, maybe we just have to abandon the journey, just maybe, as we can't rely on organisations being flexible and considerate in conditions such as ice

Reminds me sadly of an incident over 10 years ago now with a supermarket who failed to grit their carpark and would not provide any free of charge means for people to carry their shopping safely back to the car in the ice.

The OP didn’t abandon the journey though and instead used the same path they claimed to be unable to use to stand still on and buy their ticket. They also admit to not buying their ticket before travel multiple times before with no lawful excuse. We’re here to give practical advice, not mope about what might be.

 

[skyhigh]

I can't see a case either sadly, as I do see it unbearably harsh to punish someone in very unsafe conditions such as ice. But I would just see it as a sign of how harsh this world can be and how intolerant many people and organisations are. But there's no clear case according to prevailing regulations

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Mar 2023 ==


Maybe I agree, experience that we don't like in a considerate world and if the conditions are unsafe, maybe we just have to abandon the journey, just maybe, as we can't rely on organisations being flexible and considerate in conditions such as ice

Reminds me sadly of an incident over 10 years ago now with a supermarket who failed to grit their carpark and would not provide any free of charge means for people to carry their shopping safely back to the car in the ice.

Utter nonsense. The OP walked past the ticket machine to get to the platform. There is no access onto the platform that doesn't pass the machine. It is frankly ridiculous to say that not accepting the excuse of being able to walk past but not stop at a machine due to ice is "unbearably harsh".

 

[Tetchytyke]

Standing and using a ticket machine isn’t nearly as dangerous as going down a downward sloping path. I can’t believe this is being used as a justification for, on this occasion, the OP not purchasing a ticket, as opposed to all the other times they admit not using the machine with no excuse at all. This one’s best chalked up to experience.

I’d agree, but I don’t see any disadvantage in the OP appealing explaining what the situation was, including the baby (just omit “always buying on the train”- it’s not relevant and they’re not asking). So long as the OP knows the appeal is more in hope than expectation and they cough up promptly if the appeal is rejected (NB the 21-day period to secure the £50 discount is paused whilst an appeal is being considered by the appeals service, but resumes when they decide, so don’t delay too long in lodging an appeal and don’t delay in coughing up when a decision is made)

In future, the OP must use the machine.

 

[AlterEgo]

I’d agree, but I don’t see any disadvantage in the OP appealing explaining what the situation was, including the baby (just omit “always buying on the train”- it’s not relevant and they’re not asking). So long as the OP knows the appeal is more in hope than expectation and they cough up promptly if the appeal is rejected (NB the 21-day period to secure the £50 discount is paused whilst an appeal is being considered by the appeals service, but resumes when they decide, so don’t delay too long in lodging an appeal and don’t delay in coughing up when a decision is made)

In future, the OP must use the machine.

Oh yes my advice would always be to pay, or appeal at no cost to yourself. Both prevent a prosecution.

 

[some bloke]

pay, or appeal at no cost to yourself. Both prevent a prosecution.

Prosecution is barred only if:
a) an appeal is made and
b) the company does not notify the appeal panel that the penalty fare is cancelled before the appeal panel either makes a decision or runs out of time - Regulation 11(3):

The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018

These Regulations make provision for the charging of penalty fares for the failure to produce, when required to do so, a ticket or other authority authorising a person to travel by train or to be present in a compulsory ticket area at a station.

www.legislation.gov.uk

Paying does not bar prosecution, though repayment would be due under Regulation 11(2).

(For completeness, some or all of the new amendments - though now in force - have yet to be made to the web page, including those for Regulation 11: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2022/1094/regulation/6/made#regulation-6-3)

 

[Bertie the bus]

I can't see a case either sadly, as I do see it unbearably harsh to punish someone in very unsafe conditions such as ice. But I would just see it as a sign of how harsh this world can be and how intolerant many people and organisations are. But there's no clear case according to prevailing regulations

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Mar 2023 ==


Maybe I agree, experience that we don't like in a considerate world and if the conditions are unsafe, maybe we just have to abandon the journey, just maybe, as we can't rely on organisations being flexible and considerate in conditions such as ice

Reminds me sadly of an incident over 10 years ago now with a supermarket who failed to grit their carpark and would not provide any free of charge means for people to carry their shopping safely back to the car in the ice.

These sort of responses that just encourage people to think of themselves as victims help nobody.

The facts are the OP admits they regularly don't buy a ticket before travel and they had to walk down the icy slope whether they purchased a ticket or not, and walking down an icy slope with a small bit of paper in your pocket is no more dangerous than not having a ticket.

They don't lose anything by appealing but it is unlikely they will gain anything either but rather than feeling victimised the OP needs to learn from this experience and start purchasing tickets before they travel or it could get rather expensive or worse.

 

[WesternLancer]

I'd say:
- appeal anyway (insulates you from any potential prosecution - tho I think that is remote)
- your OP pretty much is what you need to do so time mostly a cut and paste of that
- but be prepared to pay it and appeal to be rejected as it's not a strong case (and the appeals people seem to turn down even reasonably decent cases....at least until 3rd stage it seems to me)

 

[Poppleropples]

Thanks everyone for your replies, I do appreciate you taking the time to comment and there's been some brilliant advice.

As an aside though, there looks like a bit of forum ping pong on here and some assumptions on my character and playing the victim card... Just to be perfectly clear, if I felt it was reasonable to buy the ticket first, I would have done. As I was the individual with the baby on a sloped and icy platform, I'm best placed to make the call on what is a good reason and what felt safe and practicable at the time. On paper someone behind a computer at the appeals service may well disagree with that, and if they do, fair enough they are judge and jury and they tick the boxes, it was worth a go. FWIW it felt like the train staff agreed but "have to fill out this paperwork", all in a very strange experience. Staff that either didn't agree with what they were doing, or didn't have the conviction or training to actually explain what they were doing.

I've lodged the appeal so we'll see. But I've had some great advice here,

some bloke - Thank you, really helpful those points. ​

Class800 - Yes that is how the world seems to be sometimes, the larger an organisation is, the less human and devoid of pragmatism it can be. In a past life I was in the Police, dealt with the public all the time, issued many a FPN, but also chose not to issue many a FPN when you know what, actually, on balance it's not the right thing from a human perspective to do and sometimes being punitive for the sake of being punitive doesn't do any good. ​

Cheers all though, I'll be off.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks everyone for your replies, I do appreciate you taking the time to comment and there's been some brilliant advice.

As an aside though, there looks like a bit of forum ping pong on here and some assumptions on my character and playing the victim card... Just to be perfectly clear, if I felt it was reasonable to buy the ticket first, I would have done. As I was the individual with the baby on a sloped and icy platform, I'm best placed to make the call on what is a good reason and what felt safe and practicable at the time. On paper someone behind a computer at the appeals service may well disagree with that, and if they do, fair enough they are judge and jury and they tick the boxes, it was worth a go. FWIW it felt like the train staff agreed but "have to fill out this paperwork", all in a very strange experience. Staff that either didn't agree with what they were doing, or didn't have the conviction or training to actually explain what they were doing.

I've lodged the appeal so we'll see. But I've had some great advice here,

some bloke - Thank you, really helpful those points. ​

Class800 - Yes that is how the world seems to be sometimes, the larger an organisation is, the less human and devoid of pragmatism it can be. In a past life I was in the Police, dealt with the public all the time, issued many a FPN, but also chose not to issue many a FPN when you know what, actually, on balance it's not the right thing from a human perspective to do and sometimes being punitive for the sake of being punitive doesn't do any good. ​

Cheers all though, I'll be off.

If you feel able to update us on outcome in due course it would be of interest - and thanks for your follow up comment.