Overuse of "Waiting at Signal" button?

[43066]

Many posts behind, but reference to the CONTACT SIGNALLER and calling the wrong box because you're in the wrong TD berth or GSM-R cell, if you press the tick, rather than the call button, it calls the signaller that sent the message, not the controlling signaller the GSM-R thinks you're under.

I hadn’t realised that.

When we call the Bobby at my London terminal (our bit is controlled by Three Bridges ROC) we generally get through to the HS1 workstation at Ashford IECC. It’s a bit of a face palm moment when the GSMR won’t set up!

 

[tiptoptaff]

I hadn’t realised that.

When we call the Bobby at my London terminal (our bit is controlled by Three Bridges ROC) we generally get through to the HS1 workstation at Ashford IECC. It’s a bit of a face palm moment when the GSMR won’t set up!

It works as you're responding to the message sent by a specific panel/box/workstation rather than making a generic point to point call.

 

[chuffed465]

A lot of this thread is why signallers need to go on cab rides and why drivers need to visit boxes and ROCs! I sit in the middle and blame both

Totally agree, I'd love to be able to visit ROC at Three Bridges and Ashford as well, I went to London Bridge back quite a few years ago which was great and I learnt a lot, but I've only ever had one signaller in my cab in the 20 years I've been driving.

 

[WAB]

Totally agree, I'd love to be able to visit ROC at Three Bridges and Ashford as well, I went to London Bridge back quite a few years ago which was great and I leant a lot, but I've only ever had one signaller in my cab in the 20 years I've been driving.

Yes, I would really recommend going to Three Bridges. You just don't 'get' what it is that the signallers and controllers (NR and TOCs) are all about until you actually go there. It made me realise just how 'small' in the mind each train is when the Thameslink core is up the spout again. I know that there are at least some in GTR who encourage their staff to visit.

 

[modernrail]

Interesting thread. As a passenger I have always wondered if it is possible for a train to be forgotten about. There have been quite a few occasions where I have been travelling on a train where I have suspected it. Also interesting though to understand that drivers should contact the signallers straight away if held on a red.

Is there any requirement for the message to be passed on to passengers? Some drivers or guards do seem to but many don’t. A classic is getting stuck behind a stopper. The passengers tend to know something is up and would at least be able to relax a bit knowing the reason.

I have also missed connections where this sort of thing has happened and with better information I would at least be able to use the time to plan a workaround.

Yesterday I was on a train held on a red just outside Selhurst on a Selhurst terminator (due to engineering) for ages. We lost 8 mins making the planned connection for getting to East Croydon very tight. There was no explanation and no suggestion the other train would be held for a minute or two to help us (even though I think the service was being stopped at Selhurst for that very purpose). Pretty much all passengers were making the change and we all had to run. One guy managed to trip on the stairs and cut his face open.

 

[Annetts key]

Interesting thread. As a passenger I have always wondered if it is possible for a train to be forgotten about. There have been quite a few occasions where I have been travelling on a train where I have suspected it.

Even if the signaller forgets, the signalling system (not including mechanical signal boxes) won’t. Hence in track circuit (or axle counter) block areas, the glow of the track circuit indications and the train describer showing the ‘head code’ means that the signaller will be reminded eventually…

And of course, the driver and guard (or equivalent) if present will not forget!

Also interesting though to understand that drivers should contact the signallers straight away if held on a red.

Keep in mind that this ‘rule’ has varied over the years, it was not always this way. Hence why there are more opinions than hot dinners on this subject. The signaller can only talk to one person at a time (as well as drivers, shunters, guards, MOMs, S&T, P.Way, E&P, OHL staff, control all are required to speak to the signaller as well as drivers depending on what’s happening).

Is there any requirement for the message to be passed on to passengers? Some drivers or guards do seem to but many don’t. A classic is getting stuck behind a stopper. The passengers tend to know something is up and would at least be able to relax a bit knowing the reason.

That’s down to the policy of the TOC. Some train crew go above the minimum and give the passengers as much information as they have. Others, only comply with the policy of the TOC.

 

[Horizon22]

Even if the signaller forgets, the signalling system (not including mechanical signal boxes) won’t. Hence in track circuit (or axle counter) block areas, the glow of the track circuit indications and the train describer showing the ‘head code’ means that the signaller will be reminded eventually…

And of course, the driver and guard (or equivalent) if present will not forget!

Or controllers will start phoning and asking questions! Sometimes even as a (albeit knowledgable) passenger, I can tell a train is being held for no discernable reason if I know the general route details. Luckily these delays are the majority of the the time just 1-2 minutes.

 

[Annetts key]

Or controllers will start phoning and asking questions! Sometimes even as a (albeit knowledgable) passenger, I can tell a train is being held for no discernable reason if I know the general route details. Luckily these delays are the majority of the the time just 1-2 minutes.

It depends, information takes time to pass along the ‘chain’, so control may not always have the latest information on the cause of a delay.
But, yes, in regards to a train ‘being forgotten’, the information system they have (which gets it’s data from the signalling system) tells them if a train is taking a long time ‘in section’.

 

[zwk500]

Keep in mind that this ‘rule’ has varied over the years, it was not always this way. Hence why there are more opinions than hot dinners on this subject. The signaller can only talk to one person at a time (as well as drivers, shunters, guards, MOMs, S&T, P.Way, E&P, OHL staff, control all are required to speak to the signaller as well as drivers depending on what’s happening).

It's been a problem since steam days - collisions occurred because Signaller forgets about train, so rule introduced that Fireman must immediately contact signaller. Then lots of delay occurs as signals clear with fireman only halfway to the box, so then they're told to wait in case of a quick pull.

 

[LAX54]

On my box visits Signallers have stated that I should press the SG and they have no issues and would rather have it as sometimes they do forget.

I was in a meeting late last year with a Signaller and again, no issues with SG and it again, being encouraged.

as a Signaller. if its SG or a 3 min delay as it was overlooked.... SG everytime please

 

[bazzarati]

It’s your way of working, but I’d much rather have to tell the odd driver ‘oh sorry mate I don’t need to talk to you anymore’ than be ringing drivers on the move all the time.
Only one of the two can get me in trouble!

Do you really just call a driver whenever you want for a trespass caution? Or do you mean you’re not proactive and you just wait until they ring you in all situations except for one’s that need an urgent call?

I’m genuinely interested because I’ve never known or seen a signaller just call every driver all the time ‘because the risks are real’

Whenever I want? They do need to know. It's not a question of being proactive you condescending prig it's a case of human fallibility and accepting that despite the systems and technology nobody is flawless, no system is 100%.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Feb 2023 ==

And what if you cause something bad to happen by distracting the driver at a critical moment?

Happens to signallers quite regularly. The OP obviously finds SGs very distracting.... Not trying to tell you how to do your job, just don't tell me how to do mine

 

[endofthetunnel]

Ok let me rephrase sorry.

If for example you’re having to pass a signal at danger, when do you do it?
You will have a signal at danger with a reminder on it. Do you call the driver whenever you fancy, which is what you’re implying in your posts? Do you just sit and wait til they call you or they send you an SG? Or perhaps guess when they’re at a stand and then call?

Personally I, and most other signallers I work with, usually send a contact sig when the trains nearly at the signal and then the driver will call me when they’re ready.

Understanding how everyone works is a key part of this thread and that’s all I’m asking

 

[bazzarati]

Ok let me rephrase sorry.

If for example you’re having to pass a signal at danger, when do you do it?
You will have a signal at danger with a reminder on it. Do you call the driver whenever you fancy, which is what you’re implying in your posts? Do you just sit and wait til they call you or they send you an SG? Or perhaps guess when they’re at a stand and then call?

Personally I, and most other signallers I work with, usually send a contact sig when the trains nearly at the signal and then the driver will call me when they’re ready.

Understanding how everyone works is a key part of this thread and that’s all I’m asking

I would tend to ring him when he's at a station, tell him which signal is at danger and that I need to give him further instructions

 

[thirdraildrive]

I wait 2 minutes if I can see an obvious reason and SG straight away otherwise. If leaving the depot I drop an SG straight away just to let the signaller know I am at the signal ready to move and not half way down the reception doing 5mph still, but once I've done that I won't touch it again until I hit my booked departure time. I sometimes consider it too when I take over a terminating train that arrived late, again just to let the signaller know I am in fact in the cab and ready. Have been delays before because there isn't a take over driver and a TRTS is pushed with the driver still changing ends. In summery I stick to the rulebook and use it occasionally when I think it might be helpful to the signaller, other than that it's left alone.

 

[Deepgreen]

I tend to use my common sense & then only press SG as a last resort. I don’t like to pester the signaller unnecessarily regardless of what the rule book states.

Precisely - common sense, which is being leached out of people by the increasing automation and ill-considered blanket rules (the latter not in this case, though, if the rule is to wait for two minutes). It would be a different matter if they had to get out of their cab and walk along to the signal phone each time!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Mar 2023 ==

I wait 2 minutes if I can see an obvious reason and SG straight away otherwise. If leaving the depot I drop an SG straight away just to let the signaller know I am at the signal ready to move and not half way down the reception doing 5mph still, but once I've done that I won't touch it again until I hit my booked departure time. I sometimes consider it too when I take over a terminating train that arrived late, again just to let the signaller know I am in fact in the cab and ready. Have been delays before because there isn't a take over driver and a TRTS is pushed with the driver still changing ends. In summery I stick to the rulebook and use it occasionally when I think it might be helpful to the signaller, other than that it's left alone.

Does "see an obvious reason" include a train that might be ahead, but out of sight round a curve at the next signal (which is probably the most frequent and valid reason for a red)?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Mar 2023 ==

We are very good at multi-tasking in cab

Some (including you) may be, but others most certainly are not - Bromsgrove light engine derailment, for example!

 

[dk1]

Precisely - common sense, which is being leached out of people by the increasing automation and ill-considered blanket rules (the latter not in this case, though, if the rule is to wait for two minutes). It would be a different matter if they had to get out of their cab and walk along to the signal phone each time!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Mar 2023 ==

Very true. I’ll stick to my logical way of doing things.

 

[Deepgreen]

Why don't you just ring the driver and let them know they will be running behind an all stopper?

That should be very obvious to any driver after a couple of signal sections!

 

[dk1]

Some (including you) may be, but others most certainly are not - Bromsgrove light engine derailment, for example!

We are all different. I find it quite standard to do that as I said before, RETB stands you in good stead for such communication.

 

[Deepgreen]

I just use common sense... as I do with my driving. For instance I don't pointlessly crawl in good weather towards a red which is on an uphill gradient and which has good sighting

Good for you - I wish more more would follow that example!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Mar 2023 ==

Very true. I’ll stick to my logical way of doing things.

There's no future for you in this business, son!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Mar 2023 ==

Interesting thread. As a passenger I have always wondered if it is possible for a train to be forgotten about. There have been quite a few occasions where I have been travelling on a train where I have suspected it. Also interesting though to understand that drivers should contact the signallers straight away if held on a red.

It is possible and sometimes happens, but, as perhaps an aside, I have found it much more common for level crossings to be forgotten about by signallers and left closed long after a train has passed with a huge queue of traffic accumulating, only to 'innocently' open many minutes later! There are certain locations where this is not uncommon. Another issue and a digression, perhaps.

 

[Voo]

I tend to use my common sense & then only press SG as a last resort. I don’t like to pester the signaller unnecessarily regardless of what the rule book states.

Yep, this is the way I do it too

 

[43066]

Does "see an obvious reason" include a train that might be ahead, but out of sight round a curve at the next signal (which is probably the most frequent and valid reason for a red)?

I would have said not. I interpret that as being able to physically see the tail lights of the train ahead, a conflicting route set, a train crossing your path etc. The strict rule book approach is to wait two minutes and still press SG regardless in these situations, but I would generally exercise common sense and avoid doing so.

That should be very obvious to any driver after a couple of signal sections!

Similarly in this situation, once it becomes obvious that you’re following a stopper, common sense applies as far as I’m concerned! I don’t believe it makes any material difference to delay attribution as, in years of being asked for delay reports, I’ve never once been asked whether I pressed SG.

 

[ComUtoR]

Does "see an obvious reason" include a train that might be ahead, but out of sight round a curve at the next signal

If you pull up to a junction on a blind bend; how would you know a train is in the section or not ? Visual confirmation becomes important as you don't know what's around the corner. The signal could be held for a different reason. Sending an SG immediately in this case would be genuinely justified.

(which is probably the most frequent and valid reason for a red)?

I think it's difficult to say what the most frequent reasons for a red are. Train in section would not be high on my list.

That should be very obvious to any driver after a couple of signal sections!

If you know your following a stopper, then you tend to hold back a signal and keep moving under caution, rather than speed directly onto the Red and then hit SG. Even then, typically you wouldn't SG because it's 'obvious'

 

[O L Leigh]

I don’t believe it makes any material difference to delay attribution as, in years of being asked for delay reports, I’ve never once been asked whether I pressed SG.

To give the converse of that.

In years of pressing the SG button (and entering the delay reason into DAS) I don't even get asked for delay reports. I genuinely can't remember how long ago my last "please explain" was, but I'd be counting in years rather than months.

I also exercise judgment, but it's possible that my own judgment is different to others.

I would use SG immediately if being stopped would cause or exacerbate a delay, or if it appears that I've been forgotten about or the signaller is shuffling the booked order of trains without apparent cause. I don't know the extent to which signallers can and do forget trains, but my experiences suggest that just sometimes they do (even when you're stopped right outside their window). If my behaviour causes irritation to a signaller then I apologise, but I'm more than happy to get off your panel if only you'd give me the road and will be gone in a jiffy. Sometimes it really does pay to get into the signaller's eyeline.

I would also say that I don't think it's necessarily fair to assume that I know what's happening ahead nor that the reason for a delay can always be discerned by the behaviour of the signals. If something feels wrong then, again, I will SG immediately just to let the signaller know that my train is at a stand and that it's safe to call me if necessary (not all signallers use the "Call Signaller" function). After all, that is what the function is meant to be used for.

 

[Annetts key]

Does "see an obvious reason" include a train that might be ahead, but out of sight round a curve at the next signal (which is probably the most frequent and valid reason for a red)?

There is no real overall generic answer to this. The answer will differ depending on which particular signal is being discussed. Especially as there can be exceptions.

There are some simple and common generalisations though, but these do not always apply in every case:

• Automatic signals normally show a proceed aspect unless either, there is a train in the section ahead, part of the signalling system has failed, or (if fitted) the emergency replacement switch has been operated (either the signal post replacement switch or the control in the signal box/centre). If a driver cannot see a train ahead, then it makes sense for them to be proactive once they bring their train to a stand.
• Controlled signals in comparison, are normally at red (although some have an automatic mode, then, to a driver, they kinda work similar to an automatic signal). They only clear to a proceed aspect when the signaller operates the control (“calls the route”) AND the interlocking has proved that it is safe for the signal to show a proceed aspect. There may be many, many reasons for these to not clear to a proceed aspect when a driver expects them to clear. Hence it’s far more difficult to come up with any consistent and reasonable overall ‘rule’.

For signals protecting level crossings, the most common reason for them being red, is because the crossing is open to traffic.

For signals protecting junctions in the “middle of nowhere” (meaning nowhere near a busy station), the most common reason for them being red will be the junction is set for a conflicting route. In my experience of watching signallers do their job, they have normally set up the route for the higher priority train a long time before the train gets anywhere near said junction. Unless the timetable is shot to hell due to disruption. Freight trains and lower priority trains, however, could find themselves coming up to a red until the higher priority train has cleared the junction.

 

[Efini92]

Drivers for their mistakes as well. One example, a driver stopped their train so short of the signal, that the train had not made it onto the track circuit that has to be occupied in order for the signal to release from red. Driver was advised that the train needed to be moved forward 20 metres… When the train moved forward, just like magic, the signal cleared (I won’t say how long the train had been waiting…)

You wouldn’t be referring to VW29 would you?

 

[Annetts key]

You wouldn’t be referring to VW29 would you?

No, somewhere else.

 

[Stigy]

I would have said not. I interpret that as being able to physically see the tail lights of the train ahead, a conflicting route set, a train crossing your path etc. The strict rule book approach is to wait two minutes and still press SG regardless in these situations, but I would generally exercise common sense and avoid doing so.



Similarly in this situation, once it becomes obvious that you’re following a stopper, common sense applies as far as I’m concerned! I don’t believe it makes any material difference to delay attribution as, in years of being asked for delay reports, I’ve never once been asked whether I pressed SG.

I guess “see” can be interpreted to seeing the junction etc? Either way, I think in all situations route knowledge and common sense should prevail. I know on one of the routes I driver there’s 2 spect signalling with one section being about 4 miles long. If I stop there, I know chances are there’s a freight train ahead of me.

Likewise with junctions, you just generally know you’re being held because it’s a junction.

 

[ComUtoR]

No, somewhere else.

Plenty of similar occurrences on our patch.

Myself, I've had it where I stopped at an approach control signal then hit the SG. The Signaller asked me to pull forward, which I did, and she was convinced I'd still stopped short. When I told her I was close enough to touch it, she told me it was supposed to clear so she then pulled the junction signal instead and magically, mine then stepped up

No following another train, empty section ahead, no visible conflict at the junction(s) and an approach controlled signal. Totally hitting SG instantly on that signal.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Mar 2023 ==

I don’t believe it makes any material difference to delay attribution as, in years of being asked for delay reports, I’ve never once been asked whether I pressed SG.

Don't ask....

I just checked back through about 8yrs worth of delay attribution and I can categorically state that pressing SG can impact where the delay attribution goes.

It doesn't really matter if you have been specifically asked for it , or if it's been recorded anywhere by NR, I've now seen both scenarios where a Driver has reported pressing SG and where SG has not been reported but used to kick back a delay.

 

[Annetts key]

You do know that the Network Rail CCF and other systems are used to work out where the delay was caused.

CCF stands for Control Centre for the Future. It’s a system that displays and tracks the movements of trains and with modern signalling, also if the signal is red or showing a proceed aspect (it uses the feeds from the Train Describer systems). It can be used to show replays of train movements to investigate incidents of lost time. Including the amount of time a train has spent in section. So I would think that the only thing the pressing of the SG adds, is a record of the driver using this facility. If a signaller fails to clear a signal for a good reason, where the data is available from the CCF system, why would anyone bother looking at whether the SG facility has been used?
Unless the TOC and Network Rail are having a disagreement.

 

[cin88]

You do know that the Network Rail CCF and other systems are used to work out where the delay was caused.

CCF stands for Control Centre for the Future. It’s a system that displays and tracks the movements of trains and with modern signalling, also if the signal is red or showing a proceed aspect (it uses the feeds from the Train Describer systems). It can be used to show replays of train movements to investigate incidents of lost time. Including the amount of time a train has spent in section. So I would think that the only thing the pressing of the SG adds, is a record of the driver using this facility. If a signaller fails to clear a signal for a good reason, where the data is available from the CCF system, why would anyone bother looking at whether the SG facility has been used?
Unless the TOC and Network Rail are having a disagreement.

CCF isn't all that reliable, I work a couple of locations where it's data feed happens to be several minutes behind whatever the signalling equipment is actually doing. I've fielded several calls that have gone as follows this week:
TDA: [headcode] is showing on CCF as sitting for 2/3/4 minutes on green signals, anyone reported anything to you?
Me: No idea, signals were off well in advance of that train, CCF's got a delay in showing what the signals are doing down here. Nothing's been reported anyway.
TDA: Okay, thanks.

It's due to be replaced by Train Movement Viewer this year. Hopefully that will be a bit closer to live in terms of showing what is going on.