Fare dodging at Wigan Wallgate

[strange6]

Same 'ere. I think Merseyrail's first-to-last staffing policy is really good, part of the wider Merseytravel initiative I think. Used to be the same under West Midlands Centro/Central Trains, but we all no where that's off to.

Greater manchester seem a lot less pro-staff though, there are so many stations that would benefit from them, for the purposes of this thread, places like Appley Bridge, and Orrell, or maybe Westhoughton, or Blackrod... you get the idea I'm sure.

I know what you mean but the stations you mention are just before mainline stations like Bolton and Wigan Wallgate so any fare dodgers should be picked up there.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I know what you mean but the stations you mention are just before mainline stations like Bolton and Wigan Wallgate so any fare dodgers should be picked up there.

Trouble is though, it'll make all the difference staffing them - would you like to be stood on your origin for 10 mins doing jack, and have to queue up at BON or WGW? Who says they are going there anyway - I would assume Blackrod has healthy commutership to Chorley/Preston, both of which are ungated. Same for Godley, Ashburys, Navigation Rd, etc etc, it's not a question of catching them on the gate (which half of the time you can avoid), it's abut maing it convenient for people - by staffing more stations!

 

[WestCoast]

Greater manchester seem a lot less pro-staff though, there are so many stations that would benefit from them, for the purposes of this thread, places like Appley Bridge, and Orrell, or maybe Westhoughton, or Blackrod... you get the idea I'm sure.

I think Merseyrail, for their faults (I only use them once in a while, so I don't know too much), are a well-run TOC, good staffing coupled with a penalty fares policy and a fantastic blitz on 'feet on seats'. They have dared go where others haven't. No doubt this is due to Merseytravel initiatives.

They really have revenue sorted unlike the mess at GMPTE or whatever it's calling itself this week. If GMPTE paid to staff all stations first-to-last, and persuaded Northern, TPE and ATW (doubt they'd get Virgin to agree) to make GM a penalty fare zone with guards non-commercial in the PTE zone - do you think that the situation would be better? It's a purely hypothetical concept of course...

 

[MidnightFlyer]

They really have revenue sorted unlike the mess at GMPTE or whatever it's calling itself this week. If GMPTE paid to staff all stations first-to-last, and persuaded Northern, TPE and ATW (doubt they'd get Virgin to agree) to make GM a penalty fare zone with guards non-commercial in the PTE zone - do you think that the situation would be better? It's a purely hypothetical concept of course...

Maybe not first to last, but they could do with peak staffing at certain stations - it makes it queicker at their destination

 

[strange6]

Trouble is though, it'll make all the difference staffing them - would you like to be stood on your origin for 10 mins doing jack, and have to queue up at BON or WGW? Who says they are going there anyway - I would assume Blackrod has healthy commutership to Chorley/Preston, both of which are ungated. Same for Godley, Ashburys, Navigation Rd, etc etc, it's not a question of catching them on the gate (which half of the time you can avoid), it's abut maing it convenient for people - by staffing more stations!

I agree with you on this point but the TOC's would probably feel it was not worth the extra fiscal outlay.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I agree with you on this point but the TOC's would probably feel it was not worth the extra fiscal outlay.

Indeed. shame really

 

[strange6]

Indeed. shame really

It really is a shame. You wouldn't believe how easy it is to have free train rides at peak hours between such stops as Wigan NW to Preston or Wigan Wallgate to Meols Cop (Southport) because the trains are that full the guard doesn't bother coming around and the RPI's at the main stations have gone home! So yes, you're absolutely correct in what you say. Portable RPI's would pay for themselves

 

[WestCoast]

I know it's no substitute at all, but would it help if some of these no ticket facilities GMPTE stations had a ticket machine?

 

[strange6]

I know it's no substitute at all, but would it help if some of these no ticket facilities GMPTE stations had a ticket machine?

It would indeed, but they would probably be vandalised at most non-manned stations within GMPTE!

 

[WestCoast]

It would indeed, but they would probably be vandalised at most non-manned stations within GMPTE!

I find that a bit of an excuse that GMPTE would use. It's probably true for certain locations but how do Metrolink manage or indeed the non-manned stations in penalty-fare land?

 

[c259]

Lime Street at peak times can be a nightmare. It only takes one person not to have bought a ticket, whilst they are purchasing a ticket at the barrier, people just talk through behind.

No one questions them for a ticket.

 

[WestCoast]

Lime Street at peak times can be a nightmare. It only takes one person not to have bought a ticket, whilst they are purchasing a ticket at the barrier, people just talk through behind.

No one questions them for a ticket.

Today, I was going through the booths and the two people in front just walked through, the guy said nothing?!

 

[strange6]

I find that a bit of an excuse that GMPTE would use. It's probably true for certain locations but how do Metrolink manage or indeed the non-manned stations in penalty-fare land?

Fair comment. You would probably get away with it in the rural stations like Appley Bridge but I do think GMPTE should introduce penalty fares. Would go some way to making a deterent I suppose

 

[Mojo]

Not during early morning rush hour, which is when the sting was in operation.

Yes they do. I used to use it every morning along with many others and my mum still does.

Everyone knows Filton Abbey Wood was built purely for the MOD establishment (what was wrong with the old Filton station?) so maybe there's a political angle to all of this?

The location of Filton Abbey Wood is much more sensible than the old station. It has allowed for the provision of a car park and is much more convenient for people in Horfield and most of Filton than the previous station was, especially given that Parkway is there now.

As for other commentators. When FGW took over Filton station it was de-staffed permanently, but the posters and National Rail Enquiries failed to catch up and still said it was staffed in the evening peak. It was only ever staffed from the portakabin by a man with an Avantix anyway. Last summer FGW reinstated staffing from about 13.00 until 18.00-ish. The man comes down from Parkway on the Brighton train, tidies up the station and then opens the "ticket office." He's the only one who does it though; so if he is ever off then the station is closed.

 

[WestCoast]

Fair comment. You would probably get away with it in the rural stations like Appley Bridge but I do think GMPTE should introduce penalty fares. Would go some way to making a deterent I suppose

If the ticket machine is monitored by CCTV like Metrolink do it should be OK - any damage and they've got footage. Problem is I doubt they will invest - they can be too short sighted.

Greater Manchester penalty fares is an interesting one - in principle it sounds like a good idea, getting all the TOCs committed will be tricky. What if Northern implement it but TPE won't (people all head for TPE:-x). Doubt very much ATW/Virgin/CrossCountry would go for it although EMT might accept.

 

[strange6]

If the ticket machine is monitored by CCTV like Metrolink do it should be OK - any damage and they've got footage. Problem is I doubt they will invest - they can be too short sighted.

Greater Manchester penalty fares is an interesting one - in principle it sounds like a good idea, getting all the TOCs committed will be tricky. What if Northern implement it but TPE won't (people all head for TPE:-x). Doubt very much ATW/Virgin/CrossCountry would go for it although EMT might accept.

Getting Northern on board would be the main thing. Northern do provide the vast majority of services within GMPTE so I think that would go a long way to solving the problem no matter if the other TOC's join or not.

 

[WestCoast]

Getting Northern on board would be the main thing. Northern do provide the vast majority of services within GMPTE so I think that would go a long way to solving the problem no matter if the other TOC's join or not.

Agreed although I do think TPE is needed as well - they are the second biggest provider of services in the GMPTE area. They provide a lot of the services on the (Horwich) - Bolton - Manchester corridor as well as the City Centre - Manchester Airport route.

 

[chuckles1066]

Yes they do. I used to use it every morning along with many others and my mum still does.

Well I must have missed them then - whenever anything pulled in from the Bristol direction, the entire horde of people stomp-stomped across the bridge towards the MOD building and not towards the station exit.

The location of Filton Abbey Wood is much more sensible than the old station. It has allowed for the provision of a car park and is much more convenient for people in Horfield and most of Filton than the previous station was, especially given that Parkway is there now.

I disagree; the station is on a trading estate (I believe the posh phrase these days is "business development park") with 30 parking spaces and no other place to park. If you approach from north of the station you have to go down the one-way dual-carriageway, around the MOD roundabout and back up the other side to take a chance on whether there are any spaces free.

The old station had a small car park but was on a residential estate so there was always plenty of parking.

I stick to my opinion that the 800 yard trek from the old station to the MOD establishment was obviously too much like hard work for somebody, hence a new station.......

As for other commentators. When FGW took over Filton station it was de-staffed permanently, but the posters and National Rail Enquiries failed to catch up and still said it was staffed in the evening peak. It was only ever staffed from the portakabin by a man with an Avantix anyway. Last summer FGW reinstated staffing from about 13.00 until 18.00-ish. The man comes down from Parkway on the Brighton train, tidies up the station and then opens the "ticket office." He's the only one who does it though; so if he is ever off then the station is closed.

Seriously, employ someone to check tickets on a part-time basis then? 7a.m to 9.30a.m, 12.5 hours a week at £10 an hour - idea for a retired person maybe, you'd recover their salary within about ten minutes of the first train stopping there.

I keep reading about how the country is in economic strife and here you've got a gold-plated, cast-iron way to increase revenue at minimal cost?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Why on earth is Filton Abbey Wood station unstaffed?:roll:.

I presume FGW employ their own RPIs. These MOD staff should be made to pay every day and if they get angry well tough. Contact their employers about them constantly fare evading, if they care. Put a "name and shame" board outside the station like London Midland and Tyne and Wear Metro do.

That was my thought; if the MOD sent an email out stating that if they receive information from FGW regarding fare-evasion then it would be regarded as a disciplinary matter, that might just help?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Strange one, I would think they could make more than enough money to justify it being there (obviously they did at one point)

The frustrating thing for me is FGW's MD justifies the number of stopping services at Filton compared to Patchway by pointing to the footfall (which is apprently going to increase hugely due to MOD expansion).

And yet he doesn't seem to feel the station should be manned.

If you assume that x% of the public will try and travel for free, common sense dictates that the greater the footfall, the number of fare dodgers increases.

But, hey, what would I know? :roll:

 

[Mojo]

Well I must have missed them then - whenever anything pulled in from the Bristol direction, the entire horde of people stomp-stomped across the bridge towards the MOD building and not towards the station exit.

It's not just people leaving the stationThat exit also leads to the retail park, the HP building,

I disagree; the station is on a trading estate (I believe the posh phrase these days is "business development park") with 30 parking spaces and no other place to park. If you approach from north of the station you have to go down the one-way dual-carriageway, around the MOD roundabout and back up the other side to take a chance on whether there are any spaces free.

Never had trouble getting parked in the car park there when arriving at 07.30. If you're coming from the south, then park on Nutfield Grove like I and most others do/did. Or even walk from your house if you live close enough. Filton station was very close to Parkway so it made sense to move it onto the south side of the ring road.

Seriously, employ someone to check tickets on a part-time basis then? 7a.m to 9.30a.m, 12.5 hours a week at £10 an hour - idea for a retired person maybe, you'd recover their salary within about ten minutes of the first train stopping there.

I dispute your argument that these people are fare dodgers through wanting to save money or break the law. Most stations in Greater Bristol are unstaffed and there is no way of buying a ticket unless someone comes round on the train to sell you one; it's all very well having someone on the station checking tickets, but come from Lawrence Hill, Stapleton Road, Bedminster, Parson Street, Severn Beach line, etc., etc. and there's no way of buying a ticket.

 

[chuckles1066]

It's not just people leaving the stationThat exit also leads to the retail park, the HP building,

Behave, the HP building is half-way between the MOD roundabout and the M32

I dispute your argument that these people are fare dodgers through wanting to save money or break the law. Most stations in Greater Bristol are unstaffed and there is no way of buying a ticket unless someone comes round on the train to sell you one; it's all very well having someone on the station checking tickets, but come from Lawrence Hill, Stapleton Road, Bedminster, Parson Street, Severn Beach line, etc., etc. and there's no way of buying a ticket.

But anyone with common sense buys a season ticket if they're going to use the railways regularly.

Unless you reckon you can get away without paying.......

I draw your attention to the indignant female's comments I referred to earlier: "if I have to start paying every day then I'm going to look for another job".

Just for kicks, a quick search for jobs on the MOD website reveals there isn't a single vacancy at the Filton site..........so I guess salary and perks of the job (i.e free travel via FGW) must be enough of an incentive?

 

[Greenback]

Does the MoD website have any vacancies anywhere? Most public sector organisations are not recruiting at the moment as far as I can see!

I have no doubt that bthere is fare evasion in that area, as it is impossible to stamp it out entirely. But I don't think it's right to take what may have been an ironic or humourous remark and conclud ethat everyone who works at a particular place or uses a particular station never pays their fare!

 

[chuckles1066]

I have no doubt that bthere is fare evasion in that area, as it is impossible to stamp it out entirely. But I don't think it's right to take what may have been an ironic or humourous remark and conclud ethat everyone who works at a particular place or uses a particular station never pays their fare!

Point taken

But from my own eye-witness observation, a serious percentage of those leaving via the MOD exit had not paid for a ticket. And were ******ed off at having to do so.

Certainly serious enough for FGW to sit up and take notice.

Or you'd like to think so? Even 50 punters at a fiver a day gets them an extra £65k a year.

Me? Loss of revenue isn't an issue, I now drive to work.

But if I worked for FGW and I knew what I know, I'd be rattling a few cages (especially if I was told a pay freeze was imminent etc etc).

 

[Greenback]

I'm sure there is a lot more they can do about revenue protection in the Greater Bristol area. But the accountants sitting in Swindon will look at the costs of employing people to gain that £65k and decide that its not worth the costs of recruitment, training, uniforms, ticket machines, pension contributions and probably lots more for that return.

Of course, they could outsource, but that brings its own problems!

 

[WatcherZero]

Perhaps this thread has been read by someone, coming back through Wallgate today and the three revenue staff were deployed one on the stairs, one on the lift and one on the main exit though it looked like he was monitoring the performance of the other two.

 

[WestCoast]

Perhaps this thread has been read by someone, coming back through Wallgate today and the three revenue staff were deployed one on the stairs, one on the lift and one on the main exit though it looked like he was monitoring the performance of the other two.

It certainly does make you wonder, it wouldn't do harm for all TOCs to read this forum.

Virgin aren't listening to my concerns about their revenue losses though:roll: I wasn't checked last week at all on Manchester Picc - Stoke and Stafford - Liverpool L Street plus the usual 'no check' zone of Lancaster - Warrington

 

[87015]

Virgin aren't listening to my concerns about their revenue losses though:roll: I wasn't checked last week at all on Manchester Picc - Stoke and Stafford - Liverpool L Street plus the usual 'no check' zone of Lancaster - Warrington

Kings X - Leeds and return this weekend, free both ways
Barrier 'grips' at both ends even more free than New St!!

 

[chuckles1066]

I'm sure there is a lot more they can do about revenue protection in the Greater Bristol area. But the accountants sitting in Swindon will look at the costs of employing people to gain that £65k and decide that its not worth the costs of recruitment, training, uniforms, ticket machines, pension contributions and probably lots more for that return.

Of course, they could outsource, but that brings its own problems!

I've no doubt you're right.

From my experience of beancounters they always take the one-page "it isn't financially viable" route rather than have to put their cups of coffee down, do some work and actually have to construct a five-page proposal that catalogues the real problems out there and what can be done to address them.

I would point out that my comments were figures plucked out of the air; 50 punters is probably closer to 100 if you take all stopping services at Filton between 7 and 9.

There were certainly at least 50 and that was from just one train that stopped.

So all of a sudden your 50 x £5 x 5 days x 52 weeks is doubled and the fare revenue loss is £130k. Even if it cost FGW £26k to train and equip a minimum wage pensioner they're still 2 grand a week in pocket.

Reckon anyone in Swindon has put their cup of coffee down yet?

 

[WestCoast]

Kings X - Leeds and return this weekend, free both ways
Barrier 'grips' at both ends even more free than New St!!

I hope East Coast are not taking lessons.

A couple of months back I had no grips Preston to London and return!! No keen Virgin RPIs at Euston either.

Really, whoever said that 'intercity' grips always occur is not convincing me..

 

[Flamingo]

Just catching up after a few days away.
Your maths have a lot wrong with them Chuckles. Not least the assumption that all Filton needs is a few minimum wage pensioners (as you put it) for the role.

1. There has to be two ticketing staff per exit. This is the agreed standard for staff safety, as the station is unmanned, and by any analysis they are "at risk" in this role, both from assault by disgruntled passengers (those two PCSO's were not there to enjoy the view), and theft (don't forget they may have a fair amount of cash on them) .

2. It's not a question of paying minimum wage to anybody - the wages for the role would be in line with what is paid to everybody else in FGW doing a similar role - times two per exit (see above)

3. The pensioners would have to be able to pass the same medical as everybody else. (BTW, why do you think that only retired people would be interested in the job?)

4. More than MOD use Filton - there are a good few students and residents of the area also use it.

 

[rjhglover]

Exiting via the lifts at New St into the taxi rank area is a sure way of avoiding the manual ticket check, if any determined people want to avoid it.

Can't you go via the Pallasades Shopping Centre without going past the RPIs? I know at Nottingham Station if you head to the Station Street Tram Station and then go down the opposite flight of stairs you avoid the barriers.