Fare dodging at Wigan Wallgate

[chuckles1066]

Just catching up after a few days away.
Your maths have a lot wrong with them Chuckles. Not least the assumption that all Filton needs is a few minimum wage pensioners (as you put it) for the role.

You're nit-picking, stop it. The maths might be shaky but the principle isn't; using FGW's own justification for the high level of stopping trains there, the station services the MOD establishment and footfall is expected to increase "dramatically" when the said employer expands.

Ergo, it should be manned.

1. There has to be two ticketing staff per exit. This is the agreed standard for staff safety, as the station is unmanned, and by any analysis they are "at risk" in this role, both from assault by disgruntled passengers (those two PCSO's were not there to enjoy the view), and theft (don't forget they may have a fair amount of cash on them) .

2. It's not a question of paying minimum wage to anybody - the wages for the role would be in line with what is paid to everybody else in FGW doing a similar role - times two per exit (see above)

3. The pensioners would have to be able to pass the same medical as everybody else. (BTW, why do you think that only retired people would be interested in the job?)

4. More than MOD use Filton - there are a good few students and residents of the area also use it.

I used minimum wage and pensioners purely to demonstrate how easily and cheaply FGW could secure another x-thousand in lost revenue by catching fare-dodgers.

It wasn't intended to be a bible on employment techniques. I imagine the unions would have something to say if minimum wage pensioners were to be employed.

Whichever way you cut it, the fact remains that Filton definitely should be manned.

Unless there's a political angle to all of this. I'm sure Mr Hopwood knows what I'm talking about.

 

[Mojo]

Can't you go via the Pallasades Shopping Centre without going past the RPIs? I know at Nottingham Station if you head to the Station Street Tram Station and then go down the opposite flight of stairs you avoid the barriers.

What do you mean? The exit to the shopping centre is on the main concourse.

 

[Flamingo]

You're nit-picking, stop it. The maths might be shaky but the principle isn't; using FGW's own justification for the high level of stopping trains there, the station services the MOD establishment and footfall is expected to increase "dramatically" when the said employer expands.

Ergo, it should be manned.



I used minimum wage and pensioners purely to demonstrate how easily and cheaply FGW could secure another x-thousand in lost revenue by catching fare-dodgers.

It wasn't intended to be a bible on employment techniques. I imagine the unions would have something to say if minimum wage pensioners were to be employed.

Whichever way you cut it, the fact remains that Filton definitely should be manned.

Unless there's a political angle to all of this. I'm sure Mr Hopwood knows what I'm talking about.

Well, if you don't mean minimum wage pensioners, then don't say it. You are contradicting yourself by first saying that it could be done cheaply using minimum wage pensioners, then saying you didn't mean that.

What do you mean, or are you just posting random comments?


Also, can you be more specific about your cryptic comment about Mr Hopwood by the way, as 1. I'm intrigued, and 2. I haven't a clue what you mean.

 

[Mojo]

Also, can you be more specific about your cryptic comment about Mr Hopwood by the way, as 1. I'm intrigued, and 2. I haven't a clue what you mean.

He suspects that the reason for it not having permanent ticket inspections is because people who don't have tickets are supposedly MOD employees and the MOD is a Government department.

It's a pretty large claim; because not everyone who uses the station works for the MOD and many of these people are without a ticket because of the unstaffed stations in the area.

 

[SS4]

Can't you go via the Pallasades Shopping Centre without going past the RPIs? I know at Nottingham Station if you head to the Station Street Tram Station and then go down the opposite flight of stairs you avoid the barriers.

No, the entrance to the Pallasades from the station is the other side of the ticket barrier compared to the platforms.

 

[chuckles1066]

Well, if you don't mean minimum wage pensioners, then don't say it. You are contradicting yourself by first saying that it could be done cheaply using minimum wage pensioners, then saying you didn't mean that.

What do you mean, or are you just posting random comments?

It was designed to illustrate how much extra revenue FGW could obtain at minimum cost. It never factored in union militancy at such a move or anything else.

It was there to illustrate that great hordes of people wandering off in the direction of the MOD building were fare-dodgers.

But I guess it went over your head.

Hey ho, I've posted previously about British education standards, thankfully Mojo was able to answer your subsequent query about what I was alluring to regarding Mr Hopwood.

And to Mojo: there IS a ticket machine at Filton Abbey Wood, nothing to stop those hordes buying one to get them at least one way?

This forum is certainly a strange one - you point out the revenue being lost by TOCs, offer a solution and you end up on the back foot?

 

[tbtc]

It was designed to illustrate how much extra revenue FGW could obtain at minimum cost. It never factored in union militancy at such a move

Good luck getting untrained minimum wage staff employed by any TOC without Unions objecting

 

[Flamingo]

It was designed to illustrate how much extra revenue FGW could obtain at minimum cost. It never factored in union militancy at such a move or anything else.

It was there to illustrate that great hordes of people wandering off in the direction of the MOD building were fare-dodgers.

But I guess it went over your head.

Hey ho, I've posted previously about British education standards, thankfully Mojo was able to answer your subsequent query about what I was alluring to regarding Mr Hopwood.

And to Mojo: there IS a ticket machine at Filton Abbey Wood, nothing to stop those hordes buying one to get them at least one way?

This forum is certainly a strange one - you point out the revenue being lost by TOCs, offer a solution and you end up on the back foot?

The reason we don't know what you were talking about is because you post conspiracy theory tin-foil-hat bollix wrapped up in something that is almost but not quite English (and invariably accompanied by a whine about Patchway not having six HST's an hour stopping at it). BTW, if that is what you consider a solution, I'd hate to see what you consider a problem.

Anyway, enjoyable as this is, it is taking us off-thread, which is the problems associated with unbarriered stations.

The 90/10 scenario does kick in after a while with station barriers, where 90% of the effort goes on tring to close off the final 10%.

Penalty Fares are designed to be a cost-effective deterrent to the average punter, as are blockades and RPI's targeting certain services. There is no way that 100% will ever be achieved, and there is a certain amount of "Realpolitik" about the approach, which is to keep fare evasion within an acceptable limit.

Somebody within the railway is working it out, and obviously thinks that the amount lost in revenue is less than the cost of trying to go after that final 10%. Is the balance right? I have no idea. Personally I try to remember, as one of my colleagues pointed out, the more unbarriered stations, the more commission us Guards earn.

 

[island]

If people at Filton Abbey Wood are likely to be using warrants, the vending machines can't help them.

 

[LexyBoy]

It was designed to illustrate how much extra revenue FGW could obtain at minimum cost. It never factored in union militancy at such a move or anything else.

Plenty of pensioners in Bath - I suppose you'd be happy for them to do your job at minimum wage?

Come to think of it, now we're living in the Big Society, people should be happy to volunteer to man random stations for free - after all, it's for a good cause (i.e. corporate pockets).

Somebody within the railway is working it out, and obviously thinks that the amount lost in revenue is less than the cost of trying to go after that final 10%. Is the balance right? I have no idea.

Exactly.

What worries me (and I think is one of chuckles' points) is where low user numbers for a given station are used to justify the poor service provided. It's fine if the accountants consider it not worth pursuing the x% of fare evaders (intentional or not), but they should consider this number in the station use stats. This fraction could conceivably push up the numbers sufficiently to justify an improved service, which would in turn increase users to the point that staffing could be feasible.

 

[Flamingo]

What worries me (and I think is one of chuckles' points) is where low user numbers for a given station are used to justify the poor service provided. It's fine if the accountants consider it not worth pursuing the x% of fare evaders (intentional or not), but they should consider this number in the station use stats. This fraction could conceivably push up the numbers sufficiently to justify an improved service, which would in turn increase users to the point that staffing could be feasible.

User numbers according to tickets sold are a bit misleading, I'll give you that.

As an example, up until about 3-4 years ago, over 600 000 people used Grangetown station in Cardiff (less than a mile from Cardiff Central station). This dropped dramatically within 12 months to approx 100K a year. What had happened, you ask? The service was the same, and the population and businesses were the same. However, most of the mainline stations in South Wales were barriered in that period, so the queues of people at the excess fares window in Cardiff Central asking for tickets from Grangetown were eliminated. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grangetown_railway_station

I occasionally charge people on-train from some of the more "relaxed" stations, and they say to me "Fine, I'll buy today, but I'm not travelling by train again". They don't seem to follow that if they are not paying, we don't want them. They can go and walk, swim, skateboard, or stay at home.

Why should a company provide a service to a station where a large proportion of the locals view it as a free ride?

 

[chuckles1066]

The reason we don't know what you were talking about is because you post conspiracy theory tin-foil-hat bollix wrapped up in something that is almost but not quite English (and invariably accompanied by a whine about Patchway not having six HST's an hour stopping at it). BTW, if that is what you consider a solution, I'd hate to see what you consider a problem.

Is this the Royal "we"? I had no idea you were this forum's designated representative.

Mojo worked out straightaway what I was hinting at, I'm sorry if you had to have it explained to you before the penny dropped, I'll try and phrase my (quite excellent) English differently in future.

And the "conspiracy theory" label is the last bastion of the desperate, please desist.

If you knew anything about this area, you'd know there was nothing remotely wrong with the old station at Filton (which sits about 300 yards away from where the new station was built).

The new station backs onto the MOD; from getting off of the train, you're sat at your desk within five minutes tops.

Someone, somewhere had enough clout to force through all the relevant bits and bobs to enable it all to happen. Who?

And I wonder what sort of answer a private company would receive if they bought a plot of land, built an office complex on it and asked if they could have an existing station closed down and a brand new station built, devoted to serving their complex.

See, no conspiracy theory, just nice, uncomfortable facts.

 

[Flamingo]

So, let me get this straight - you are saying that Mark Hopwood and his predecessors at FGW are personally responsible for allowing and encouraging fare-dodging (a criminal act) by users of Filton Abbey Woods station for political reasons?

Posting that on an open forum may be considered libellous, you do know that?

(You need a new Tin-foil hat, mate)

Are you sure there is not a grassy knoll anywhere at Filton?

 

[185]

Mark Hopwood was at First North Western in 1998 when Burns security (Now G4S) were introduced.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I don't think there's enough tin-foil to go round, 185...

 

[Mojo]

A pair of lifts have recently been installed at Euston Square station from the south side of Euston Road to the Westbound platform. It sails its users straight past the gateline with no ticket check

 

[Mike395]

A pair of lifts have recently been installed at Euston Square station from the south side of Euston Road to the Westbound platform. It sails its users straight past the gateline with no ticket check

I dont see that so too much of a problem unless travelling to/from somewhere like Finsbury Park - I could be wrong but think that's the only (only other now!) station accessible without going through barriers during the day?

If LU start putting such systems in place at other stations, it might start becoming an issue though

 

[swt_passenger]

I dont see that so too much of a problem unless travelling to/from somewhere like Finsbury Park - I could be wrong but think that's the only (only other now!) station accessible without going through barriers during the day?

If LU start putting such systems in place at other stations, it might start becoming an issue though

You can get there from any number of ungated NR stations though - Finsbury Park is no different to Motspur Park from that point of view...

 

[chuckles1066]

So, let me get this straight - you are saying that Mark Hopwood and his predecessors at FGW are personally responsible for allowing and encouraging fare-dodging (a criminal act) by users of Filton Abbey Woods station for political reasons?

Did I say that?

Please point me in the direction of where I said so.

I certainly believe political pressures led to the old station at Filton being abandoned and a very expensive new one built 300 yards away.

And it's a fact that Mr Hopwood justifies the high number of stopping services there by referring to the huge footfall that the MOD establishment provides.

I often wonder whether Filton has more people embarking and disembarking than Bristol Parkway.............is there a site that details such things?

Posting that on an open forum may be considered libellous, you do know that?

(You need a new Tin-foil hat, mate)

Are you sure there is not a grassy knoll anywhere at Filton?

Unless you're very silly, getting sued for libel on the net is impossible.

Just because my ip address is logged and can be traced (assuming I'm not hiding behind an anonymising service, which I am incidentally) doesn't mean that the person who pays the bill is the person sat at the keyboard typing the "defamatory" comments.

But you knew that.

Didn't you?

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Unless you're very silly, getting sued for libel on the net is impossible.

So naive. It can and does happen.

 

[Mojo]

I dont see that so too much of a problem unless travelling to/from somewhere like Finsbury Park - I could be wrong but think that's the only (only other now!) station accessible without going through barriers during the day?

You can also use the DLR lift at Bank to avoid the ticket gates. Chalfont/Latimer and Chorleywood also have gates which go straight out of the station with no ticket gates. Similarly interchanging onto the DLR or BR at stations where you know you'll be exiting at an ungated station.

And also, just because a station has ticket gates, don't assume 100% of people in the ''paid'' area will have tickets. People jump the gates, crawl under them and double gate.

 

[bengolding]

Isn't acccess to/from the District Line at Kensington Olympia onto Olympia Way still 'open'?

 

[strange6]

Isn't acccess to/from the District Line at Kensington Olympia onto Olympia Way still 'open'?

Mmmm, the topic has strayed somewhat from Wigan Wallgate but at least it's highlighted a common trend of lifts has a potential abuse of fare paying!

 

[WatcherZero]

Not been paying attention, did anyone mention how easy it is at Victoria?

 

[strange6]

Not been paying attention, did anyone mention how easy it is at Victoria?

Not so easy on platforms 1 and 2 but you can always walk up the stairs to McDonalds and the MEN arena to bypass the RPI's for plats 3 - 6!

 

[WatcherZero]

Tbh ive done it when carrying stuff in both hands and not wanting to have to fish my ticket out

 

[bnm]

Did I say that?
I often wonder whether Filton has more people embarking and disembarking than Bristol Parkway.............is there a site that details such things?

Not even close.....

2009/10 Annual Passenger usage:

Filton - 0.598 million.
Bristol Parkway 2.042 million.

Now these figures are based on ticket sales, so they could be underestimates of the actual footfall. Even with the perceived problem of ticketless travel at Filton Abbey Wood it would need nearly 4000 ticketless journeys a day for Filton to approach the footfall of Bristol PW. Not forgetting that Bristol PW will also have some unrecorded footfall as well.

As an aside, would not many of the staff at MOD Abbey Wood actually hold season tickets?

Oh, and aren't you driving on your commute from this area now? Why not go find a forum to moan about all the uninsured drivers on the roads.

Shall I behave?

 

[stut]

So naive. It can and does happen.

Indeed (although there's some discussion as to whether talkboards should be considered a form of speech, and therefore this kind of defamation be treated as slander, instead).

Recently, the Guardian shut down its long-standing talkboards with no warning. And then this appeared in the print version:

http://yfrog.com/gz2zeuj

 

[Anvil1984]

Not so easy on platforms 1 and 2 but you can always walk up the stairs to McDonalds and the MEN arena to bypass the RPI's for plats 3 - 6!

Its actually quite easy just to walk past them and they are nigh on useless in the rush hours, just open the gates, Its surprising how many tickets I can sell when coming off the bay at Vic to go over Calder Valley

 

[Flamingo]

Did I say that?

Please point me in the direction of where I said so.

Whichever way you cut it, the fact remains that Filton definitely should be manned.

Unless there's a political angle to all of this. I'm sure Mr Hopwood knows what I'm talking about.

Jeez, short term memory failure.

I stopped at Patchway today, as usual nobody got on, and nobody got off.