UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

[Bald Rick]

Do you think that by 2035 EVs will outnumber petrol/diesel cars on the roads?

Definitely. I reckon it will within a decade for cars.

In wealthier rural areas EVs are starting to grow in number very fast and will be the majority by 2025.

I think that’s rather optimistic; 2025 is only 22 months away!

 

[778]

Definitely. I reckon it will within a decade for cars.

How long will it be before it is cheaper to charge an EV, than it is to fill up an ICE car with petrol or diesel? Even though electric cars will become less expensive in a few years time, high charging costs could still put people off buying seond hand EVs.

 

[reddragon]

Definitely. I reckon it will within a decade for cars.



I think that’s rather optimistic; 2025 is only 22 months away!

2025 is 22 to 34 months away!

 

[johncrossley]

Well, I have a 2015 Hyundai i10, it does 70 as quiet as many Golf sized cars, it is marginally wider than the pre 2010 model, (as @Bletchleyite says, that is improved side protection), and is probably no more than 100mph longer, - if at all. So why would that be perceptibly "less good in town"?

According to Wikipedia, the first generation was 3,565 mm long, your version is 3,645 mm long and the latest version is longer still at 3,670 mm. By comparison, the Fiat Seicento was only 3,337 mm long. Bigger cars are harder to drive in town.

The point relating to electric cars is that there is bound to be more pressure to get range as high as possible, and therefore have as much space for batteries as possible, which might mean that cars are going to get even longer.

 

[trebor79]

I think that’s rather optimistic; 2025 is only 22 months away!

I'm sure it'll happen in some wealthy "rural" areas (those that are largely second homes).
In my "normal" Norfolk village (relatively high income but not stuffed with millionaires) there are a few EV's, less than 10%, and it'll take some years.to get to 50%.
I think I might actually become the first wholly EV house in the village this year if I order my second EV as planned.

Personally, I can't see me ever buying another combustion engined car. Aside from running costs being lower, the EV is a much nicer drive.
It was also amusing to have a frustrated Audi driver behind me in a 20 zone today. Predictably, she moved to overtake on the 2 mile straight which starts at the point it becomes a 60 limit, at which point I didn't even have to floor it to easily pull away and leave her looking rather silly

 

[Bald Rick]

How long will it be before it is cheaper to charge an EV, than it is to fill up an ICE car with petrol or diesel? Even though electric cars will become less expensive in a few years time, high charging costs could still put people off buying seond hand EVs.

it’s always been cheaper to charge an EV! Unless you insist on using a high price service station charge or similar.

At the standard price capped domestic rate for electricity (34p / kWH), even the ‘thirstiest’ of EVs will do you 10p/mile on average. That’s the equivalent of 67mpg for petrol / 77mpg for diesel, and you’ll struggle to find cars doing that mpg on average.

of course if you have a domestic tariff with a lower night rate, or your own solar panels, then your cost per mile will be much less.

 

[trebor79]

The point relating to electric cars is that there is bound to be more pressure to get range as high as possible, and therefore have as much space for batteries as possible, which might mean that cars are going to get even longer.

Batteries are getting smaller all the time for given capacity. The battery in the MG4 is only 11cm thick.if they wanted to make it shorter that would easily be achieved by making it a bit thicker.

 

[reddragon]

With EVs, Audi's are best seen shrinking in rear view mirrors

 

[Bald Rick]

With EVs, Audi's are best seen shrinking in rear view mirrors

or shrinking in front of you, if it’s a GT RS (one of my friends has one. Incredible machine)

 

[reddragon]

or shrinking in front of you, if it’s a GT RS (one of my friends has one. Incredible machine)

Assuming you mean the Audi E-tron GT RS then yes, but the ICE Audi RS, I overtook one struggling in the Pyrenes at over 2000m on a >10% grade. So cool to do that, squealing tyres in the process!

 

[cactustwirly]

it’s always been cheaper to charge an EV! Unless you insist on using a high price service station charge or similar.

At the standard price capped domestic rate for electricity (34p / kWH), even the ‘thirstiest’ of EVs will do you 10p/mile on average. That’s the equivalent of 67mpg for petrol / 77mpg for diesel, and you’ll struggle to find cars doing that mpg on average.

of course if you have a domestic tariff with a lower night rate, or your own solar panels, then your cost per mile will be much less.

Not everyone has access to at home chargers.
Lots of urban housing is terraced with on street car parking, where using public chargers is more expensive than filling up with petrol!

If you need to do a long distance journey, especially during the winter where the range drops off the cliff you'll need to charge en route and use a very expensive charger at a service station.

The economics don't really stack up, unless it's a company car for the massive savings in BIK

I feel like BEVs will be like diesel in 20 years time with all their flaws, and all the emissions caused by the extraction of lithium and shipping it halfway across the world

 

[Bald Rick]

The economics don't really stack up, unless it's a company car for the massive savings in BIK

But this is just not right. I‘ve now lost count if the number of my friends with EVs, and the only one who has it as a company car is the one with the Audi GT RS. All the others can’t be wrong!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Feb 2023 ==

Assuming you mean the Audi E-tron GT RS then yes, but the ICE Audi RS, I overtook one struggling in the Pyrenes at over 2000m on a >10% grade. So cool to do that, squealing tyres in the process!

Yes the e-tron GT RS. Which RS model did you go past? I’m rather surprised, unless it was an old RS3. Even then they had 340hp new. It may have been struggling for other reasons than the altitude…

 

[cactustwirly]

But this is just not right. I‘ve now lost count if the number of my friends with EVs, and the only one who has it as a company car is the one with the Audi GT RS. All the others can’t be wrong!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Feb 2023 ==



Yes the e-tron GT RS. Which RS model did you go past? I’m rather surprised, unless it was an old RS3. Even then they had 340hp new. It may have been struggling for other reasons than the altitude…

The only person I know with an EV has it as a company car. Everyone else drives petrol or Diesel cars

The economics don't stack up if you have to use public chargers, of you charge it in Tesco you run the risk of an £80 fine for going over the 2 hour limit. The other chargers are as expensive as petrol

 

[Bald Rick]

The economics don't stack up if you have to use public chargers

you mean if you have to use the most expensive public chargers all the time. Of course you’d be silly to do that. Which is why hardly anyone does.

of course some public chargers are free for some EV owners.

The other chargers are as expensive as petrol

If by ‘other’ you mean at home, No they’re not. See previous posts.

 

[trebor79]

The economics don't really stack up, unless it's a company car for the massive savings in BIK

But this is just not right. I‘ve now lost count if the number of my friends with EVs, and the only one who has it as a company car is the one with the Audi GT RS. All the others can’t be wrong!

Indeed. I wouldn't have an EV as a company car if I was doing significant business mileage. The BIK might be low (for now) but you get shafted on the mileage payments which HMRC will allow, 5p a mile which won't even cover public charging costs (which you'll be doing a fair bit of it doing a lot of miles).
Even worse if you do it as salary sacrifice. Then you still pay for the car (with any tax saving more or less wiped out by the leasing company price gouging), you pay BIK and still only get 5p per mile but now you have to insure and maintain it too!

 

[Ediswan]

It's not changed. City cars like the Chevrolet Matiz and Vauxhall Agila were fine for motorway use too.

Best part of 20 years ago due to 'circumstances' used a very full Vauxhall Nova to get from Bala to Hertford (M54, M6, M1). Expected snail performance, but that was fine. Prior to that I owned a Fiat Panda 1000 CL, which was also fine on motorways.

 

[AM9]

According to Wikipedia, the first generation was 3,565 mm long, your version is 3,645 mm long and the latest version is longer still at 3,670 mm. By comparison, the Fiat Seicento was only 3,337 mm long. Bigger cars are harder to drive in town.

The point relating to electric cars is that there is bound to be more pressure to get range as high as possible, and therefore have as much space for batteries as possible, which might mean that cars are going to get even longer.

I don't think there's any perceptible difference driving a car 80mm longer except in an extremely tight parking situation, - and that would be in a slot where adjacent vehicles were incorrectly parked.

 

[paul1609]

it’s always been cheaper to charge an EV! Unless you insist on using a high price service station charge or similar.

At the standard price capped domestic rate for electricity (34p / kWH), even the ‘thirstiest’ of EVs will do you 10p/mile on average. That’s the equivalent of 67mpg for petrol / 77mpg for diesel, and you’ll struggle to find cars doing that mpg on average.

of course if you have a domestic tariff with a lower night rate, or your own solar panels, then your cost per mile will be much less.

Unless you have a very big house or an independent solar array you won't be generating enough solar energy to charge an EV it will mostly be used by your home with some marginal power to charge a vehicle or export to the grid. A solar panel in London only achieves its maximum output for about an hour/per day for 4 months in the winter, as you go further north this decreases.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

If by ‘other’ you mean at home, No they’re not. See previous posts.

That obviously isn't what they meant, as that would be nonsensical- they were clearly talking about those who lack the ability to charge at home.

Some of the EV advocates on this thread seem to be deliberately taking any opposing views completely out of context.

 

[Noddy]

Unless you have a very big house or an independent solar array you won't be generating enough solar energy to charge an EV it will mostly be used by your home with some marginal power to charge a vehicle or export to the grid. A solar panel in London only achieves its maximum output for about an hour/per day for 4 months in the winter, as you go further north this decreases.

You need to check out the MyEnergi (a British company) Zappi charger. It will divert all excess (above 1.6kw) energy from your solar array into your EV. Yes it will never fully charge your car but if you have a decent array you’ll be getting 10s of miles per sunny day which if you work at home or nights could cover your daily mileage, greatly reducing your daily running costs.

And you don’t need a very big house for PV. I live in a standard post war 3 bed semi with 16 panels. If installed now that size array could probably produce about 7kw.

 

[paul1609]

You need to check out the MyEnergi (a British company) Zappi charger. It will divert all excess (above 1.6kw) energy from your solar array into your EV. Yes it will never fully charge your car but if you have a decent array you’ll be getting 10s of miles per sunny day which if you work at home or nights could cover your daily mileage, greatly reducing your daily running costs.

And you don’t need a very big house for PV. I live in a standard post war 3 bed semi with 16 panels. If installed now that size array could probably produce about 7kw.

On your 7kwp house this month (feb) you will on average generate about 9.5 Kwh. This will fluctuate from about 3 up to around 17 Kwhs depending on the weather. You can either use that energy to power your house (most households in that sort of house will use more than 9.5Kwh per day in winter) or you can use it to partially charge your car not both. Jan, Dec and Nov have on average lower generation. You will only generate significant amounts of power for a EV if your car is plugged in mid day during the summer months.
Anybody who tells you anything else is trying to sell you a green product or just lying, you cant greenwash the laws of physics.

 

[Noddy]

On your 7kwp house this month (feb) you will on average generate about 9.5 Kwh. This will fluctuate from about 3 up to around 17 Kwhs depending on the weather. You can either use that energy to power your house (most households in that sort of house will use more than 9.5Kwh per day in winter) or you can use it to partially charge your car not both. Jan, Dec and Nov have on average lower generation. You will only generate significant amounts of power for a EV if your car is plugged in mid day during the summer months.
Anybody who tells you anything else is trying to sell you a green product or just lying, you cant greenwash the laws of physics.

I don’t dispute that in the middle of February you’re not going to generate much! However, unless you have a battery in your house or are using a heat pump for heating, excess power-most of the 9.5kWh in your example-is simply exported to the grid. In our house we are using a few hundred watts during the day unless the dishwasher or washing machine is on. Even 50% (which I would suggest is conservative) of 9.5kWh is 15miles @ 3kWh per mile. Enough to cover the school run/shopping trip/commute if working nights etc. Again I suggest doing some research on the Zappi.

 

[GLC]

The only person I know with an EV has it as a company car. Everyone else drives petrol or Diesel cars

The economics don't stack up if you have to use public chargers, of you charge it in Tesco you run the risk of an £80 fine for going over the 2 hour limit. The other chargers are as expensive as petrol

I charge exclusively on public chargers, because I have no way of charging at home. By my maths, I have to be paying about 65p/kWh for petrol to be cheaper to use(assuming 150p per litre, and 40mpg average efficiency). There is a charger near me that costs 75p per kWh, but even GridServe motorway chargers are only 65p/kWh for the lower power units, and 66p/kWh for the 350W chargers. I would say the average rapid charge price in my area is around 55p/kWh (Mix of PodPoint and BP Pulse) for rapid chargers, and about 30p/kWh for slow chargers.

The economics of me using exclusively using public chargers are that I still save money when compared to petrol. Although personally, I would be happy to pay a bit more for the electricity as compared to petrol because of the lower carbon impact.

(For reference, I have a BMW i3, which is currently sitting at 4.0 miles per kWh efficiency. I expect that to go up to 4.2-4.3 in the summer, which would nudge the break even point to more like 72p/kWh)

 

[cactustwirly]

I don’t dispute that in the middle of February you’re not going to generate much! However, unless you have a battery in your house or are using a heat pump for heating, excess power-most of the 9.5kWh in your example-is simply exported to the grid. In our house we are using a few hundred watts during the day unless the dishwasher or washing machine is on. Even 50% (which I would suggest is conservative) of 9.5kWh is 15miles @ 3kWh per mile. Enough to cover the school run/shopping trip/commute if working nights etc. Again I suggest doing some research on the Zappi.

So that's £2.85 for 15 miles?
No hugely cheaper than running a petrol...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Feb 2023 ==

I charge exclusively on public chargers, because I have no way of charging at home. By my maths, I have to be paying about 65p/kWh for petrol to be cheaper to use(assuming 150p per litre, and 40mpg average efficiency). There is a charger near me that costs 75p per kWh, but even GridServe motorway chargers are only 65p/kWh for the lower power units, and 66p/kWh for the 350W chargers. I would say the average rapid charge price in my area is around 55p/kWh (Mix of PodPoint and BP Pulse) for rapid chargers, and about 30p/kWh for slow chargers.

The economics of me using exclusively using public chargers are that I still save money when compared to petrol. Although personally, I would be happy to pay a bit more for the electricity as compared to petrol because of the lower carbon impact.

(For reference, I have a BMW i3, which is currently sitting at 4.0 miles per kWh efficiency. I expect that to go up to 4.2-4.3 in the summer, which would nudge the break even point to more like 72p/kWh)

Depends on the type of drive, most modern petrols will do 50mpg on the motorway.

How much miles per kWh do you get when it's windy or when it's -2 outside?

 

[Noddy]

So that's £2.85 for 15 miles?
No hugely cheaper than running a petrol...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Feb 2023 ==

I’m not sure I know of any solutions where you can get ‘free’ petrol or diesel? Perhaps you can elaborate?

Exporting the same electricity to the grid (as will happen if you don’t have a home battery or run electric heating) will get you around 0.15p per kWh at the best rate (Octopus) = £0.71. Most export tariffs are less. Putting it in your car battery and running off sunshine makes far more sense. And 15 miles is this arbitrary example in the middle of February. Across an entire year you’re talking about potentially 100s of miles and even more £s for ‘free’.

 

[paul1609]

I don’t dispute that in the middle of February you’re not going to generate much! However, unless you have a battery in your house or are using a heat pump for heating, excess power-most of the 9.5kWh in your example-is simply exported to the grid. In our house we are using a few hundred watts during the day unless the dishwasher or washing machine is on. Even 50% (which I would suggest is conservative) of 9.5kWh is 15miles @ 3kWh per mile. Enough to cover the school run/shopping trip/commute if working nights etc. Again I suggest doing some research on the Zappi.

That would be okay if you could use that 4.5 Kwh to charge the car but the reality is you cant. It would for a start require the car to be plugged in at home from sunrise to sunset so no school runs, shopping trips, lunch in town etc. The 1.6 Kw limit before the charger starts will only be achieved with a 7kwp solar array for a few hours and then not on every day in the 6 months of winter. Ive read the promotional material of Zappi its 100% greenwash.

 

[cactustwirly]

That would be okay if you could use that 4.5 Kwh to charge the car but the reality is you cant. It would for a start require the car to be plugged in at home from sunrise to sunset so no school runs, shopping trips, lunch in town etc. The 1.6 Kw limit before the charger starts will only be achieved with a 7kwp solar array for a few hours and then not on every day in the 6 months of winter. Ive read the promotional material of Zappi its 100% greenwash.

That also relies on you owning your own home and being able to afford solar panels

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Feb 2023 ==

I’m not sure I know of any solutions where you can get ‘free’ petrol or diesel? Perhaps you can elaborate?

Exporting the same electricity to the grid (as will happen if you don’t have a home battery or run electric heating) will get you around 0.15p per kWh at the best rate (Octopus) = £0.71. Most export tariffs are less. Putting it in your car battery and running off sunshine makes far more sense. And 15 miles is this arbitrary example in the middle of February. Across an entire year you’re talking about potentially 100s of miles and even more £s for ‘free’.

I got my figure from the energy price cap which is 30p per kWh which is what the vast majority of people are paying

 

[GLC]

So that's £2.85 for 15 miles?
No hugely cheaper than running a petrol...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Feb 2023 ==


Depends on the type of drive, most modern petrols will do 50mpg on the motorway.

How much miles per kWh do you get when it's windy or when it's -2 outside?

50mpg on the motorway is not equivalent to 50mpg average. The post I was replying to was speculating about the price of an EV when charged on public chargers. Doing the maths on only one segment of driving wouldn’t be representative (other than for the one segment of course).

The 4.0 m/kWh i quoted for my own car is the current lifetime average, including driving (now two) winter. The i3 is an efficient car (unlike modern EV SUVs unfortunately)

 

[MotCO]

Across an entire year you’re talking about potentially 100s of miles and even more £s for ‘free’.

How much did it cost to install your solar panels?

 

[Noddy]

Unless you have a very big house or an independent solar array you won't be generating enough solar energy to charge an EV it will mostly be used by your home with some marginal power to charge a vehicle or export to the grid. A solar panel in London only achieves its maximum output for about an hour/per day for 4 months in the winter, as you go further north this decreases.

@paul1609 This is what you originally said and I quoted. I think we’re going to have to agree to disagree.

How much did it cost to install your solar panels?

They were on the house when we purchased it, so I don’t know how much they cost new. They were installed in 2012 as a standard 3.6kW array for the FIT scheme. Today you’d be able to get a system that is twice as efficient for the same size, and I’d imagine it would cost less than back then. Our electricity bill is so low I would never buy another house without them, or the option to have them installed (and priced in accordingly).

As I speak at 11.20am on a sunny February day we are currently exporting 3.2kW to the grid. Under the FIT scheme we make a reasonable amount of money from that, but if you’re on the new Smart Energy Tariff far better to have it go into your car battery (or anywhere else rather than exporting it for a few pennies).