UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

[Energy]

They can make the bigger cars too. They're not a small company!

It takes a lot of design work to make a car, Ford have been downsizing their vehicle lineup to focus on specific models and clearly its worked over in the states as Ford Broncos and F150 Lightnings have insane waiting lists. Ford have decided to focus on the cars which make them the most money.

There is a market for smaller, lighter and more efficient vehicles. EVs might be emissions free, but overweight SUVs have less range (or need bigger batteries) and can do more damage to road, be harder to park and so on.

Of course there is a market for smaller cars, but it is less profitable. I prefer smaller cars but Ford's decision is purely business.

The Fiesta has a best seller for decades.

Times change, Ford also needed to have a design redo of the Fiesta and possible retooling which is why the Fiesta is ending when it is.

The industry has worked damn hard to get people to buy SUVs and crossover vehicles, and market them like perfumes,

Have they? SUVs and crossovers seemed to have sold themselves...

but during the current climate economically - there's even more demand for smaller, more affordable, cars.

Is there? The autocar top selling cars list has seen more SUVs enter.

and eventually Ford will reconsider, which is absolutely will. I guarantee the Fiesta will return within ten years.

Maybe they will (I hope they do, I prefer smaller cars) once trends change, for now they are just focussing on higher profit cars. If/when they return I'd expect it to be more Golf level in terms of price with cheap Fords being a thing of the past.

 

[jon0844]

The F150 Lightning is a great car and may just convince red America to give up their V8 and V12s, but it isn't really a car for most of Europe. It's also somewhat pricey. As are the other Ford EVs on sale today.

They have their market and Ford should capitalise in it, but to give up elsewhere is short sighted and not everyone is behind the plan.

Ford is now thinking too much of its home market and, that's fine for America, but they're going to lose out globally. Maybe they aren't that bothered, or will just invest in another company doing smaller cars instead.

You're right, SUVs are sold as sexy status symbols and people are buying them. But making these electric also makes them extremely expensive.

Again, there's a genuine market but look how many are driven with just one person. As even electricity goes up in price, more people will be surely looking at miles per KWh and seeing how the figures don't often add up.

You can't make higher profits if you can't sell vehicles, and a company like Ford needs to find a way to make its supply chain more nimble so it can shift larger numbers of cheaper vehicles.

Because someone else surely will.

 

[johncrossley]

There are so few city cars available now, and the ones that remain are much bigger than they used to be, meaning they are not so low cost and not so easy to drive around town as earlier versions. Having less space to house a battery is surely bad news for the future of city cars, as the less space available for the battery means lower range.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are so few city cars available now

Are there? There seem to be lots of small cars on the market.

and the ones that remain are much bigger than they used to be, meaning they are not so low cost and not so easy to drive around town as earlier versions. Having less space to house a battery is surely bad news for the future of city cars, as the less space available for the battery means lower range.

A city car doesn't need a big range, maybe 100 miles at most, 50 would probably suit most purposes. It could also be much lighter and have a lower top speed. I think we'll see a wholly separate "city runaround" class of car appear in due course.

 

[johncrossley]

Are there? There seem to be lots of small cars on the market.

There are lots of "small" cars, but fewer city cars. The A-segment is for city cars (which is what I am talking about). B-segment is for "small" cars, which are bigger than city cars.

A-segment - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

In 2020 the ten highest selling A-segment cars in Europe were Fiat Panda, Fiat 500, Toyota Aygo, Renault Twingo, Volkswagen Up!, Hyundai i10, Kia Picanto, Peugeot 108, Citroën C1 and Suzuki Ignis.

B-segment - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

In 2020 the fifteen highest selling B-segment cars in Europe were the Renault Clio, Peugeot 208, Opel/Vauxhall Corsa, Toyota Yaris, Volkswagen Polo, Dacia Sandero, Ford Fiesta, Citroën C3, Mini, Renault Zoe, Skoda Fabia, Hyundai i20, Seat Ibiza, Audi A1 and Suzuki Swift.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are lots of "small" cars, but fewer city cars. The A-segment is for city cars (which is what I am talking about). B-segment is for "small" cars, which are bigger than city cars.

A-segment - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

B-segment - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

That Wiki link shows 10 current models. How many do you need?!

Arguably a reduction is desirable, anyway, as it means more people are cycling, e-biking, e-scooting and using public transport in cities instead.

 

[johncrossley]

That Wiki link shows 10 current models. How many do you need?!

Arguably a reduction is desirable, anyway, as it means more people are cycling, e-biking, e-scooting and using public transport in cities instead.

My point is that those city cars are actually quite beefy. So called "small" cars such as the modern day Yaris and Corsa are huge. By contrast, today's city car is at home on the motorway and is now a more appropriate car for general use than for city use.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Maybe if you bothered to read this thread, you'd see that cost has been discussed repeatedly. And also learn that prices are coming down, as we begin to get smaller vehicles and as the second hand market grows.

The video doesn't knock EVs in the way I think you think it does. Did you fully watch it, or just like the video title?

I'd say by 2025 the landscape will have changed drastically, let alone 2030 or 2035.

Yes I did, and he discusses the cost implications for those on lower incomes. Despite the many posts on this thread insisting that "costs are coming down" there's no sign of them coming down to the sorts of levels that older petrol or diesel cars are available at. In particular his point about the much wider variation in electricity costs compared to fuel costs is important. He also talks about the various tariffs for electricity which offer cheaper rates but only between 2am and 6am. He comments on how that's no help for people who work nights, and that four hours isn't long enough to get a full charge, but an additional issue with those tariffs which occurred to me is that if you have to wait until 2am to plug your car in, and then get up at 6am to unplug it, you won't get a good night's sleep. Something which isn't going to be great from a safety aspect.

Perhaps you should actually consider the objections I've made in the thread, which are primarily about the costs and not driven by some sort of petrol-head prejudice against electric cars themselves. As I've repeatedly said, I hope my fears are unfounded and that costs actually do come down to the sort of levels where a working, roadworthy EV can be purchased for under £1,000. I just don't see it happening.

Don't accuse me of having not read the thread simply because I'm unconvinced by the so-far unsupported insistence that costs will come down to affordable levels.

 

[Energy]

The F150 Lightning is a great car and may just convince red America to give up their V8 and V12s, but it isn't really a car for most of Europe.

Of course, I'm just using it as an example of what Ford can do with focusing their efforts on a smaller number of cars.

It's also somewhat pricey. As are the other Ford EVs on sale today.

The mustang mach e isn't cheap though Ford's first attempt at a proper commercial EV was never going to be cheap so a higher end model makes sense. The Puma electric will be more interesting.

Ford is now thinking too much of its home market and, that's fine for America, but they're going to lose out globally. Maybe they aren't that bothered, or will just invest in another company doing smaller cars instead.

Will they? The puma sold good numbers last year at 35 088 vs the Corsa's 35 910. The Kuga (the Puma's bigger version) did well at 26 549 as well, ahead of the Fiesta's 25 070 though the Fiesta isn't a fair comparison. The Puma is a Fiesta underneath so its not impossible that a Fiesta or Fiesta derivative returns at some point.

As even electricity goes up in price, more people will be surely looking at miles per KWh and seeing how the figures don't often add up.

I'm sure some will, but drive down the motorway and see how many people are doing 55mph in their car to get better mpg...

You can't make higher profits if you can't sell vehicles, and a company like Ford needs to find a way to make its supply chain more nimble so it can shift larger numbers of cheaper vehicles.

And Ford are selling them, look at the Puma...

That Wiki link shows 10 current models. How many do you need?!

A reduction is needed, the market was flooded a few years ago with everyone making a hatchback.

Despite the many posts on this thread insisting that "costs are coming down" there's no sign of them coming down to the sorts of levels that older petrol or diesel cars are available at.

Prices have gone down, originally a Nissan Leaf was about £30k pre subsidy, now a MG4 with better range is £24k no subsidy. For even cheaper look at the Dacia Spring.

and that four hours isn't long enough to get a full charge,

A full charge? No but on a 7kw charger thats 28kwh, assuming your car does a reasonable 4mi/kwh thats 112mi which should be plenty for what most people do in an average day with a longer charge for the occasional longer trips.

and that costs actually do come down to the sort of levels where a working, roadworthy EV can be purchased for under £1,000.

Under £1000? A long time...

Don't accuse me of having not read the thread simply because I'm unconvinced by the so-far unsupported insistence that costs will come down to affordable levels.

They are coming down now, they've taken a while as manufacturers were increasing battery sizes to get a decent range while prices were remaining the same.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Prices have gone down, originally a Nissan Leaf was about £30k pre subsidy, now a MG4 with better range is £24k no subsidy. For even cheaper look at the Dacia Spring.

I'm not disputing that "costs have come down", but £24k is still unachievable for huge swathes of the population. The video from James Martin I linked yesterday also briefly mentions the subsidies and how onerous some of the requirements are.

Under £1000? A long time...

Which is exactly my point regarding EV poverty. Large segments of society will be priced off the road- looking at the bigger picture that might be a good thing overall, but public transport will need massive investment and improvement to compensate... and right now services are being cut.

They are coming down now, they've taken a while as manufacturers were increasing battery sizes to get a decent range while prices were remaining the same.

They're coming down slowly, sure. But citing a £24k price to someone who can only afford a cheap used car is like telling a homeless person in London that they could get a house in Hull for £60,000. It doesn't help.

 

[trebor79]

They're coming down slowly, sure. But citing a £24k price to someone who can only afford a cheap used car is like telling a homeless person in London that they could get a house in Hull for £60,000. It doesn't help.

But that car second hand in 3 or 4 years will be much more affordable. You're saying a brand new car is too expensive for people who can only afford to buy second hand. Well, of course it is!

 

[AM9]

Yes I did, and he discusses the cost implications for those on lower incomes. Despite the many posts on this thread insisting that "costs are coming down" there's no sign of them coming down to the sorts of levels that older petrol or diesel cars are available at. In particular his point about the much wider variation in electricity costs compared to fuel costs is important. He also talks about the various tariffs for electricity which offer cheaper rates but only between 2am and 6am. He comments on how that's no help for people who work nights, and that four hours isn't long enough to get a full charge, but an additional issue with those tariffs which occurred to me is that if you have to wait until 2am to plug your car in, and then get up at 6am to unplug it, you won't get a good night's sleep. Something which isn't going to be great from a safety aspect.

Perhaps you should actually consider the objections I've made in the thread, which are primarily about the costs and not driven by some sort of petrol-head prejudice against electric cars themselves. As I've repeatedly said, I hope my fears are unfounded and that costs actually do come down to the sort of levels where a working, roadworthy EV can be purchased for under £1,000. I just don't see it happening.

Don't accuse me of having not read the thread simply because I'm unconvinced by the so-far unsupported insistence that costs will come down to affordable levels.

You are still focussing only on the acquisition cost of EVs, it's the cost of ownership that is important, even for those with little means. The cost of motoring has steadily tracked inflation for most of the last few decades, except in some areas, environmental penalties are pushing cost higher than that. So far we've seen Euro 3 diesels either attract penalty charges or in some case banned from certain areas. This will accelerate sharplybrcause:

1) as a genuine attempt to reduce pollution and CO2 emissions​

and​

2) as a tool to remove ICVs from roads as part of decarbonisation policy, (with a byproduct being that 1) above is easier to achieve​

So the 'cheap' secondhand EV runaround will become more expensive to buy but have much lower running costs, a longer life and greater flexibility in road access (as the ICV will at the same time be more restricted). Once the process really starts to bite, there will be a rapid loss of interest in polluting older vehicles with ever tightening restrictions on where they can go.

 

[jon0844]

He also talks about the various tariffs for electricity which offer cheaper rates but only between 2am and 6am. He comments on how that's no help for people who work nights, and that four hours isn't long enough to get a full charge, but an additional issue with those tariffs which occurred to me is that if you have to wait until 2am to plug your car in, and then get up at 6am to unplug it, you won't get a good night's sleep. Something which isn't going to be great from a safety aspect.

You don't have to physically plug in at 2am and unplug at 6am. You really really haven't done much research on this have you?

How shift workers charge sounds like the 'what if I get a call at 6am and need to drive 600 miles for a dying grandmother?' scenario. Maybe they'll have to pay more, hope to have a charger at their place of work, or invest in a home battery and charge from that whenever they want (quite probably a good investment for people with or without a car at all).

As has been said many times, most people don't need to do a full charge every day. I buy petrol about once a month, so why would I charge my battery daily? At 7kWh at home, you'll get a fair chunk of power in four hours anyway.

If you're doing crazy mileages, the whole dynamics change anyway. You might be getting an allowance for fuel, or other tax relief etc. You might even look into a faster home charging solution, as it would likely be economically worthwhile.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

But that car second hand in 3 or 4 years will be much more affordable. You're saying a brand new car is too expensive for people who can only afford to buy second hand. Well, of course it is!

The bit of my post you quoted was in response to people saying "costs have come down" but still citing the cost of new cars. Your response isn't a "gotcha" because that was my objection to the post I was responding to.
How long will it be until EVs are available at the sort of prices you can currently get say an 10-year-old petrol car for today? Let's be generous and say a budget of £3,000 rather than my earlier figure of £<1k. More importantly, what sort of state will the battery be in by then, and how expensive will it be to replace?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Feb 2023 ==

You are still focussing only on the acquisition cost of EVs, it's the cost of ownership that is important, even for those with little means. The cost of motoring has steadily tracked inflation for most of the last few decades, except in some areas, environmental penalties are pushing cost higher than that. So far we've seen Euro 3 diesels either attract penalty charges or in some case banned from certain areas. This will accelerate sharplybrcause:

1) as a genuine attempt to reduce pollution and CO2 emissions​

and​

2) as a tool to remove ICVs from roads as part of decarbonisation policy, (with a byproduct being that 1) above is easier to achieve​

So the 'cheap' secondhand EV runaround will become more expensive to buy but have much lower running costs, a longer life and greater flexibility in road access (as the ICV will at the same time be more restricted). Once the process really starts to bite, there will be a rapid loss of interest in polluting older vehicles with ever tightening restrictions on where they can go.

If you can't afford to buy the car in the first place, the fact that it costs less to operate is irrelevant. Electric trains are cheaper to operate but it still costs a fair bit to put the wires up in order to use them.

 

[stuu]

The bit of my post you quoted was in response to people saying "costs have come down" but still citing the cost of new cars. Your response isn't a "gotcha" because that was my objection to the post I was responding to.
How long will it be until EVs are available at the sort of prices you can currently get say an 10-year-old petrol car for today? Let's be generous and say a budget of £3,000 rather than my earlier figure of £<1k. More importantly, what sort of state will the battery be in by then, and how expensive will it be to replace?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Feb 2023 ==


If you can't afford to buy the car in the first place, the fact that it costs less to operate is irrelevant. Electric trains are cheaper to operate but it still costs a fair bit to put the wires up in order to use them.

Cheapest on Autotrader seem to be around the £5k mark, so maybe a couple more years before they go below £3k. Presumably they would have to have some sort of worthwhile battery capacity in order to have a resale value.

On that though, does the efficiency change as well as capacity? I.e. do you need more energy input for the same mileage?

 

[Bald Rick]

Despite the many posts on this thread insisting that "costs are coming down" there's no sign of them coming down to the sorts of levels that older petrol or diesel cars are available at.

I don’t know how many times people have tried to explain this, but I’ll have another go.

The second hand EV market is only just developing, as the various models launched in the last three years start coming back into the market. Of course you won’t find sub £1000 EVs on the second hand market now. You won’t find many 3 year old cars on the second hand market for that price!

In 8-10 years time there will be ”second” hand (probably 3rd hand or more) EVs with 100-200k on the clock going for low-mid single figure thousands (+ inflation). Meanwhile, people who do buy very cheap 10-15 year old cars will still be able to buy petrol and diesels, as now. But there’s not many of them…

Within 30 miles of me there are only 175 cars for sale under £1000 on the Trader website (out of 90,000 vehicles in that area) and every one I’ve looked at is a non runner or has a major issue needing repair. Lift the maximum price to £2000 and there’s 1,900 - ie 2% of the used cars for sale are priced less than that, and as I said, many of them don’t work or need repair (often expensive, by the looks of things). The number of people who actually buy cars at this price is frankly minuscule.

but an additional issue with those tariffs which occurred to me is that if you have to wait until 2am to plug your car in, and then get up at 6am to unplug it, you won't get a good night's sleep. Something which isn't going to be great from a safety aspect.

Seems easily solvable by one or both:

1) plugging in and setting the charger to only come on between 0200 and 0600 (isn’t technology great!)
2) getting a different tariff

Does anyone with an EV, or anybody who knows someone with an EV, ever heard waiting until the early hours to plug / unplug the car specifically because of the tariff? I would say this is the thinnest of straws being clutched, but as EVs don’t have a clutch, it’s not even that

Large segments of society will be priced off the road

As above, they simply won’t.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Feb 2023 ==

More importantly, what sort of state will the battery be in by then, and how expensive will it be to replace?

At 10 years old, typically in the 70-80% of as new capacity. And no need to replace.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Cheapest on Autotrader seem to be around the £5k mark, so maybe a couple more years before they go below £3k. Presumably they would have to have some sort of worthwhile battery capacity in order to have a resale value.

On that though, does the efficiency change as well as capacity? I.e. do you need more energy input for the same mileage?

That's less than I'd have expected, so my fears may well be less-founded than I thought. If so, great stuff! I do still have concerns over things like efficiency as well, as you suggest.

It's largely academic really, as my current home is a ground floor flat round the back of the building, and I rent so wouldn't have the option of having even a slow charging point installed even if I was facing the street. This is another objection I have to the widespread adoption of EVs though- it isn't necessarily in everyone's purview to have the required equipment installed even if they can afford it. Before anyone suggests daytime charging elsewhere, that largely negates the cost savings as well as taking a big chunk out of one's day while you charge your car.

 

[jon0844]

Within 30 miles of me there are only 175 cars for sale under £1000 on the Trader website (out of 90,000 vehicles in that area) and every one I’ve looked at is a non runner or has a major issue needing repair. Lift the maximum price to £2000 and there’s 1,900 - ie 2% of the used cars for sale are priced less than that, and as I said, many of them don’t work or need repair (often expensive, by the looks of things). The number of people who actually buy cars at this price is frankly minuscule.

If there's an assumption that poor people can only afford to spend £1k on a car, it doesn't take into consideration the fact that these people will almost certainly have no money to repair and maintain a car very likely to have loads of problems - hence being sold for a low price. They're more likely cars that someone might buy as a cheap runaround/second car, or to do up themselves, or perhaps have a mate who is a mechanic.

Oh and of course the people who buy old cars to avoid high price rail fares and get their story in the newspapers, as if the process of finding, buying, registering, taxing, insuring a car for a single journey is anything but a stunt!

I'd say it would be a major financial risk to most people. It's far more likely that someone buying a 'cheap' car is looking at between £2,500 and £5k at least.

In comparison, a cheap EV will certainly be a lot easier to inspect for faults. The battery condition is obviously the major item of potential concern, and that can be very easily tested. It may come with a reduced range, but that will be pretty much it - and it doesn't just die one morning. There are no pending engine, clutch, gearbox problems just waiting to surprise you, or hard to find (and repair) leaks, perished hoses to replace etc.

This means a 2nd/3rd/4th/5th hand EV is likely to be a lot less risky as a purchase than an ICE car. You'll probably be able to buy the car and keep it for many years, and may also find it is easier to sell on again.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My point is that those city cars are actually quite beefy. So called "small" cars such as the modern day Yaris and Corsa are huge. By contrast, today's city car is at home on the motorway and is now a more appropriate car for general use than for city use.

It's not changed. City cars like the Chevrolet Matiz and Vauxhall Agila were fine for motorway use too.

What sort of car do you have in mind here?

 

[paul1609]

If there's an assumption that poor people can only afford to spend £1k on a car, it doesn't take into consideration the fact that these people will almost certainly have no money to repair and maintain a car very likely to have loads of problems - hence being sold for a low price. They're more likely cars that someone might buy as a cheap runaround/second car, or to do up themselves, or perhaps have a mate who is a mechanic.

Oh and of course the people who buy old cars to avoid high price rail fares and get their story in the newspapers, as if the process of finding, buying, registering, taxing, insuring a car for a single journey is anything but a stunt!

I'd say it would be a major financial risk to most people. It's far more likely that someone buying a 'cheap' car is looking at between £2,500 and £5k at least.

In comparison, a cheap EV will certainly be a lot easier to inspect for faults. The battery condition is obviously the major item of potential concern, and that can be very easily tested. It may come with a reduced range, but that will be pretty much it - and it doesn't just die one morning. There are no pending engine, clutch, gearbox problems just waiting to surprise you, or hard to find (and repair) leaks, perished hoses to replace etc.

This means a 2nd/3rd/4th/5th hand EV is likely to be a lot less risky as a purchase than an ICE car. You'll probably be able to buy the car and keep it for many years, and may also find it is easier to sell on again.

I think that the reality is that £1000 no longer buys you a mot'd runner. Its scrap for spares now.
According to my ex employers fleet manager if one of the control modules in your £6k second hand leaf goes pop and they apparently do, a replacement if you can find one will be so expensive that the vehicle wont be repairable. Hes recomending leasing a nearly new Dacia as by far the most sensible economy motoring option.

 

[johncrossley]

It's not changed. City cars like the Chevrolet Matiz and Vauxhall Agila were fine for motorway use too.

What sort of car do you have in mind here?

For example the Kia Picanto. An early Picanto would be fine on the motorway but the engine noise would be quite loud. You can hardly hear the engine when using a modern Picanto even at motorway speeds. But today's model is bulkier so less good in town.

 

[stuu]

I think that the reality is that £1000 no longer buys you a mot'd runner. Its scrap for spares now.
According to my ex employers fleet manager if one of the control modules in your £6k second hand leaf goes pop and they apparently do, a replacement if you can find one will be so expensive that the vehicle wont be repairable. Hes recomending leasing a nearly new Dacia as by far the most sensible economy motoring option.

You can get one on ebay for £400. Delivered on Tuesday

 

[Bletchleyite]

For example the Kia Picanto. An early Picanto would be fine on the motorway but the engine noise would be quite loud. You can hardly hear the engine when using a modern Picanto even at motorway speeds. But today's model is bulkier so less good in town.

By bulkier do you mean width? That's mostly improved side protection.

 

[johncrossley]

By bulkier do you mean width? That's mostly improved side protection.

City cars also tend to be longer than they were.

 

[dgl]

But while Citroen was brave enough to bring them to the UK, and at a fairly reasonable price, I think I'd sooner pay another £500-1000 for a more powerful motor and air con (I don't think the Ami has this, but might be wrong). Thing is, I am not in a city and there are many roads locally that are 40-70mph, and I wouldn't want to routinely drive a vehicle that can barely reach 30mph on such roads. 50mph would probably be fine.

I surprised Citroën don't do an advert like they did for the 2CV, listing all the things it didn't have and in their view less to go wrong!
Personally I think the Ami should have a faster more well equipped variant but that would probably have problems with crash regulations and it would no longer be a sans permis vehicle.
As for the Axiam's, HubNut recently did a test drive of an Axiam pick-up, his partner is a fan of little vehicles like that and she was not happy with the review he gave of it, mainly that it was the worst vehicle he's ever driven, and that's saying something given he owns an Invacar!

As for Ford dropping smaller cars, I think it's simply because they can't compete with Asian companies, the quality is better, the cars (in my opinion) look better and Ford has realised that at some point the name and sheer volume of dealers only gets you so far.

 

[AM9]

For example the Kia Picanto. An early Picanto would be fine on the motorway but the engine noise would be quite loud. You can hardly hear the engine when using a modern Picanto even at motorway speeds. But today's model is bulkier so less good in town.

Well, I have a 2015 Hyundai i10, it does 70 as quiet as many Golf sized cars, it is marginally wider than the pre 2010 model, (as @Bletchleyite says, that is improved side protection), and is probably no more than 100mph longer, - if at all. So why would that be perceptibly "less good in town"?

 

[trebor79]

As for Ford dropping smaller cars, I think it's simply because they can't compete with Asian companies, the quality is better, the cars (in my opinion) look better and Ford has realised that at some point the name and sheer volume of dealers only gets you so far.

Agree. Chinese brands are already starting to get a toe hold with very good value smaller EVs. Just look at the explosive growth of MG in the past couple of years. The MG4, MG5 and MG ZS are hands down the best value EVs you can get today.

Well, I have a 2015 Hyundai i10, it does 70 as quiet as many Golf sized cars, it is marginally wider than the pre 2010 model, (as @Bletchleyite says, that is improved side protection), and is probably no more than 100mph longer, - if at all. So why would that be perceptibly "less good in town"?

Exactly. I drive a Niro most of the time which is hardly a small car and it's no bother in the city.

 

[reddragon]

Yes I did, and he discusses the cost implications for those on lower incomes. Despite the many posts on this thread insisting that "costs are coming down" there's no sign of them coming down to the sorts of levels that older petrol or diesel cars are available at. In particular his point about the much wider variation in electricity costs compared to fuel costs is important. He also talks about the various tariffs for electricity which offer cheaper rates but only between 2am and 6am. He comments on how that's no help for people who work nights, and that four hours isn't long enough to get a full charge, but an additional issue with those tariffs which occurred to me is that if you have to wait until 2am to plug your car in, and then get up at 6am to unplug it, you won't get a good night's sleep. Something which isn't going to be great from a safety aspect.

Perhaps you should actually consider the objections I've made in the thread, which are primarily about the costs and not driven by some sort of petrol-head prejudice against electric cars themselves. As I've repeatedly said, I hope my fears are unfounded and that costs actually do come down to the sort of levels where a working, roadworthy EV can be purchased for under £1,000. I just don't see it happening.

Don't accuse me of having not read the thread simply because I'm unconvinced by the so-far unsupported insistence that costs will come down to affordable levels.

I used to drive old bangers into the ground as I couldn't afford the risk of not being able to keep up payments and had no deposit, I tried! The repair bills were painful as were breakdowns & bits falling off. I can remember having a bowl on the seat & a plastic bag when it rained. I kept all those costs and today my NEW MG EV costs me about the same per month as that old banger. When EVs get cheap 2nd hand and the bigger batteries get down the market, there will be cheap runabouts that may not be under £1k but they won't come with hefty maintenance costs either!

Yes it is totally unfair that the poorest without a home drive & charger get charged at 20% vat versus home at 5%, yes it is wrong I pay 7.5p / unit and they pay 50p+ but I am not in power to change that. Elsewhere special EV tariffs are offered for home charge rates on certain public chargers, they are just not in the UK.

btw Norway does have bottom end cheap EVs as their market is mature & not fraught with Brexit chaos!

 

[778]

I'd say by 2025 the landscape will have changed drastically, let alone 2030 or 2035

Do you think that by 2035 EVs will outnumber petrol/diesel cars on the roads?

 

[reddragon]

Do you think that by 2035 EVs will outnumber petrol/diesel cars on the roads?

In wealthier rural areas EVs are starting to grow in number very fast and will be the majority by 2025. Electric vans are growing at eye watering rates. Where I am DPD, Royal Mail and a few others have gone fully EV already, the rest of delivery companies will be there by 2025. London is already EV heaven.

Some areas, those without home chargers (the ones that need EVs) will drag behind unless we have a change of Government / policies.