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UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

trebor79

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Kia have recently been having some issues with their online systems and the 'Kia Connect' service. As I understood it, the (electric) car is not communicating with the app which meant that some people have been plugging in at home and haven't been able to set the car to accept a charge at the times that suit their favoured tariff (Octopus flex maybe?)

I know these are teething problems and I'm not anti electric cars, but it's these kinds of features that manufacturers need to make work 100% of the time for as long as the car is in existence.
Given Intelligent Octopus is a beta product, and in the terms and conditions Octopus explicitly state that it might not always work as intended or even at all, this is hardly surprising or of any concern.
My EV doesn't have any of this connected service stuff (base model Niro EV) and I don't miss it as it seems most car apps are very flakey. In the example above, the answer is to just set the schedule on the charge point rather than the car (which is also what I do as it means I don't charge at the wrong time if I forget the change the car clock settings in spring etc). In fact I don't really know why people choose to set the schedule in the car as it just means you have to remember to unset it if you use a public destination AC charge point, and then reset it when you return home. What a faff!
And none of this is relevant when it comes to public DC charging anyway.
 
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Mawkie

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Given Intelligent Octopus is a beta product, and in the terms and conditions Octopus explicitly state that it might not always work as intended or even at all, this is hardly surprising or of any concern.
My EV doesn't have any of this connected service stuff (base model Niro EV) and I don't miss it as it seems most car apps are very flakey. In the example above, the answer is to just set the schedule on the charge point rather than the car (which is also what I do as it means I don't charge at the wrong time if I forget the change the car clock settings in spring etc). In fact I don't really know why people choose to set the schedule in the car as it just means you have to remember to unset it if you use a public destination AC charge point, and then reset it when you return home. What a faff!
And none of this is relevant when it comes to public DC charging anyway.
If we accept that 'connected cars' is one of the ways the industry is going to up-sell features in the future, or the way government uses connected cars for road pricing/demand pricing (for ICEs limited future and EVs long term future) then it is important that those features work all the time.

The counter argument would be: my 60s Beetle is still running as the spare parts are still being manufactured, petrol is still available, and there are still some garages that can fix it if it goes wrong. This is because 3rd parties are happily making for example, points, condensers, and distributor caps.

Given that the software that controls modern vehicles - the ABS, the collision warning, the air bags, lane assist, other self driving features, and a million other things, has to be locked down so tightly to stop 'bad actors' causing chaos, how can we be assured that this fundamental software will be supported in 10/20/30/40/50 years time? Quite plainly, it cannot become open source at any time, so it will be down to OEMs to maintain it. As the updates keep coming year on year, how can we be sure that any vehicle is technically capable of processing the data just to keep the car on the road?

(I acknowledge this is not an EV specific issue, but no major vehicle manufacturers are investing in ICE anymore. The software of any car remains my most pressing concern.)
 

trebor79

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If we accept that 'connected cars' is one of the ways the industry is going to up-sell features in the future, or the way government uses connected cars for road pricing/demand pricing (for ICEs limited future and EVs long term future) then it is important that those features work all the time.

The counter argument would be: my 60s Beetle is still running as the spare parts are still being manufactured, petrol is still available, and there are still some garages that can fix it if it goes wrong. This is because 3rd parties are happily making for example, points, condensers, and distributor caps.

Given that the software that controls modern vehicles - the ABS, the collision warning, the air bags, lane assist, other self driving features, and a million other things, has to be locked down so tightly to stop 'bad actors' causing chaos, how can we be assured that this fundamental software will be supported in 10/20/30/40/50 years time? Quite plainly, it cannot become open source at any time, so it will be down to OEMs to maintain it. As the updates keep coming year on year, how can we be sure that any vehicle is technically capable of processing the data just to keep the car on the road?

(I acknowledge this is not an EV specific issue, but no major vehicle manufacturers are investing in ICE anymore. The software of any car remains my most pressing concern.)
I'm not really sure why the software of embedded systems such as the ABS and traction control needs "Supporting". It'll work just as well in 30 years as it does today.
The software that does get updated from time to time is the driver-centric stuff like the infotainment system etc. I guess the answer here is the same as with similarly equipped ICE cars - once the updates stop coming you've got what you've got, but it will still work. Exactly the position my old Renault was in.
 

jon0844

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I do hope we'll see 'dumber' EVs on the market as well as all the models that come with every toy (because most of the toys aren't that expensive to make, but are perceived as very expensive/premium, so it somehow justifies a hefty premium; the battery isn't the sole reason an EV can be so expensive).

I am not suggesting people want something as dumb as a Citroen Ami, but something like one of the Dacia EVs (not sold here) is probably ideal - an EV with a very basic system that gives you your entertainment/navigation/communications via Car Play or Android Auto. I use Android Auto all the time, so don't really care for the in car system that's likely to be supported for 10 years max (so things like an onboard SatNav will have out of date maps from then on) and may require a subscription to keep up the navigation service, given there's an embedded SIM that isn't free.

If you want a car with bells and whistles, expect to pay for some of them in the future via subscriptions and the industry has a nice easy way to make the car become near obsolete even though the motor and battery are fine. People will get frustrated and buy a new car anyway. They've been doing that with high-end ICE vehicles for years, so this isn't just an EV 'problem'. It's a car industry one, and consumers shouldn't really be allowing some of these new 'ideas' to take hold and become the norm, but they will.
 

trebor79

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I do hope we'll see 'dumber' EVs on the market as well as all the models that come with every toy (because most of the toys aren't that expensive to make, but are perceived as very expensive/premium, so it somehow justifies a hefty premium; the battery isn't the sole reason an EV can be so expensive).

I am not suggesting people want something as dumb as a Citroen Ami, but something like one of the Dacia EVs (not sold here) is probably ideal - an EV with a very basic system that gives you your entertainment/navigation/communications via Car Play or Android Auto. I use Android Auto all the time, so don't really care for the in car system that's likely to be supported for 10 years max (so things like an onboard SatNav will have out of date maps from then on) and may require a subscription to keep up the navigation service, given there's an embedded SIM that isn't free.
Absolutely, this is one of the main reasons I went with a base model Niro. No built in sat nav but that's fine as built in sat nav is usually rubbish and Android Auto wirelessly connected from phone to car screen does the job better.
I didn't want all of the "driving aids" the higher spec models come with as they are mostly an utter nuisance. It does have lane departure warning and lane keeping assist which constantly bleeps, vibrates the wheel and tugs the wheel on country roads, so I turn it off immediately I start the car now, and if I forget it gets turned off the first time I become aware of it. It does have adaptive cruise control which is excellent and useful on the motorway.

Currently weighing up what EV to get to replace the other car which is ready for the scrap man. Quite tempted by the new Hyundai Ioniq 6, though I'm not convinced I like the styling. If there was something with 300+ mile range, 250+kW charge speed and no bells or whistles I'd go for that, but big battery and fast charging = bells and whistles at present. As you say, it's a cheap way to "justify" the high prices. Battery costs have actually fallen significantly in the past couple of years, despite the costs of the input minerals having increased significantly.
 

Energy

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Currently weighing up what EV to get to replace the other car which is ready for the scrap man. Quite tempted by the new Hyundai Ioniq 6, though I'm not convinced I like the styling. If there was something with 300+ mile range, 250+kW charge speed and no bells or whistles I'd go for that, but big battery and fast charging = bells and whistles at present.
300+ miles pushes you up to the more premium end.

The Astra electric (coming out soon) looks like it will be a good EV without the extra features but the range is 258 miles.

The mg4 long range is probably closest to what you want.
 

MotCO

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Also I don't trust any of these dodgy Chinese (Communist Party) owned/controlled manufacturers and refuse to contribute to their human rights abuses, which narrows the field a fair bit.
The Government got itself in hot water a few years ago about whether or not to allow Huawei supply and build 5G mobile masts due to security risks, and the fear that the Chinese will be listening in to us. There was also concern over the Chinese taking a stake in the Hinckley Point nuclear power station for a similar reason. I believe there is no smoke without fire, and my concern about this aspect of China, their human right abuses, and their hypocrisy over building electric cars in factories powered by polluting coal-fired power stations means that I will not be buying a Chinese built car (even if it is badged as an MG or Volvo).

China seems to be trying to dominate the EV market, particularly at the lower end cheaper cars for the masses. When existing mainstream manufacturers cannot compete with these cars, they will exit that end of the market and see their market share fall.

Being slightly mischevious, when China has achieved a critical mass of cars, who is to say that their cars have not been secretly programmed to all stop working at the same time, creating absolute chaos in the Western world. After all, VW secretly programmed their cars to beat emision controls, so maybe it is not so outlandish.

I have been reading all the recent comments, and have not seen anyone commenting on the fact that EV sales in January 2023 were lower thanthe average for last year. Is the bubble about to burst? Have all that want one or can afford them now bought one and the demand is now saturated? "Data from the SMMT showed that 13pc of all new cars sold were electric vehicles in January 2023, down from an average of 17pc during the whole of 2022." https://www.telegraph.co.uk/busines...-interest-electric-cars-petrol-prices-tumble/

Middle classes cannot afford electric cars, warns Vauxhall owner​


Demand for electric cars slumps as energy crisis makes them more expensive to run






Motorists are rapidly losing interest in electric cars as the cost of power surges and petrol and diesel prices continue to fall, the AA has suggested.
The proportion of car buyers considering purchasing an electric model this year has slumped to less than a fifth compared with one in four a year ago, its research found.
It came as the boss of Stellantis, which owns Vauxhall, warned that the middle classes cannot afford the cost of electric cars without the support of state subsidies.
Carlos Tavares, chief executive of Stellantis, said: “The most significant problem of electrification is the affordability for the middle classes.
“That's what we are now fighting against – how fast can we reduce the costs to bring the EV [electric vehicle] to the level of affordability that people can pay for without subsidies.”
The up-front cost of plug-in vehicles has become unaffordable for many as rampant inflation makes models even more expensive. For example, a Volkswagen Golf costs from around £25,000, while a similarly-sized all-electric VW ID.3 starts at about £36,400. Prices for Nissan's battery-powered Leaf start at £29,000, while its combustion engine model Juke starts at £20,700.



At the same time, falling prices at the pump means many drivers are holding onto petrol and diesel cars for longer.
After rocketing following Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, petrol prices have declined from highs of more than 191 pence per litre in the summer to an average of 148.4 pence per litre. Meanwhile, diesel prices have fallen to the lowest level since just after the start of the Ukraine war.
Higher wholesale gas prices have also driven up electricity prices, making it most expensive to charge an electric vehicle both at home and on the road.
A lack of charging points on Britain's roads have also put the adoption of plug-in vehicles under strain. Just one new public charger was built for every 53 electric cars sold last year, according to the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders (SMMT).
Overall, 22pc of drivers polled by the AA said they wanted to buy a car this year despite the cost-of-living crisis.



Mark Oakley, director of AA Cars, said: “It is reassuring for the car industry that so many drivers intend to buy a car this year, though stretched household budgets are often leading people to make different purchasing decisions.
“AA Cars search data shows buyers are showing particular interest in smaller cars that are affordable to buy and cheap to run. This may also be behind the cooling appetite for EVs, as they typically cost more upfront than their petrol or diesel equivalents.”
According to data published by the RAC in January, the cost of charging an electric car on the road for long drives is now more expensive than filling up their petrol and diesel equivalents.
Eight in ten drivers who are planning to buy a car this year said they would swap their existing petrol or diesel vehicle for another combustion engine model, the AA said.



It added that the cost of charging an electric car battery to 80pc at home costs about £21 based on the current price cap for electricity. Using a rapid public charging point costs an average £30, but can set drivers back as much as £46.
Drivers face paying more to charge their electric car at home from April when energy prices are due to rise by 20pc on average under the Government’s energy price guarantee. A typical household bill will increase to £3,000 a year from £2,500.
Interest in electric cars has been waning steadily in recent months. Data from the SMMT showed that 13pc of all new cars sold were electric vehicles in January 2023, down from an average of 17pc during the whole of 2022. The more limited availability of second-hand plug-in cars meant they accounted for just 1pc of used car sales last year.
On Wednesday, Stellantis boss Mr Tavares pointed to the US and Germany as examples where large subsidies have driven sales of electric cars. He said that developments in new battery designs will help cut weight and costs and bring down prices.
The launch of a $369bn (£307bn) package of green tax breaks by US President Joe Biden has raised fears that manufacturers could shun the UK as a location to invest. The EU has retaliated to Mr Biden’s measures with plans to offer tax breaks for green tech investments.
Mr Tavares used the example of so-called LFP batteries as a way the carmaker could cut the cost of electric vehicle production. LFP batteries are made from lithium iron phosphate and do not need nickel and cobalt which are more expensive to source and in limited supply.
The industry is also battling to get public charging points built in order for the cars to gain mass acceptance as a long-range travel option rather than a commuter car. Fast public chargers are also needed to make the vehicles viable for those who live in flats, where charging a car from a domestic charger is not possible.
The Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders lobby group has repeatedly asked the Government to speed up the rollout of these chargers and make their pricing as simple and consistent as possible.
 

trebor79

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Being slightly mischevious, when China has achieved a critical mass of cars, who is to say that their cars have not been secretly programmed to all stop working at the same time, creating absolute chaos in the Western world. After all, VW secretly programmed their cars to beat emision controls, so maybe it is not so outlandish.
What would be the motivation for that? If they cause chaos in our economy that will rapidly lead to chaos in their economy, and lots of pissed off middle and working class Chinese people.
Some of this anit China stuff is ridiculous. They don't have the same values as us, doesn't mean they are plotting to destroy our way of life.
 

Bald Rick

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and have not seen anyone commenting on the fact that EV sales in January 2023 were lower thanthe average for last year. Is the bubble about to burst?

that’s because January is a quiet month. EV sales for Jan 23 were, however, 20% up on Jan22, and that’s the stat that matters.
 

reddragon

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Expect March to be a bumper delivery month for MG EVs. They shut down their IT systems for a major upgrade in January and it only went back online this week. Apparently they have 12,000 awaiting delivery, with another 12,000 on ships en route!!!
 

Roast Veg

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Being slightly mischevious, when China has achieved a critical mass of cars, who is to say that their cars have not been secretly programmed to all stop working at the same time, creating absolute chaos in the Western world.
There's nothing you could do in software that wouldn't become trivially fixable.
 

trebor79

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There's nothing you could do in software that wouldn't become trivially fixable.
That is most definitely not true. Look at the issues caused by ransomware attacks on the NHS a few years ago, and more recently the Royal Mail.
 

Roast Veg

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That is most definitely not true. Look at the issues caused by ransomware attacks on the NHS a few years ago, and more recently the Royal Mail.
What personal data will a car have stored that would be succeptible to ransomware?

Flash the firmware and move on.
 

jon0844

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China could only do something nasty once. Then that's it. No more sales abroad.

It's ridiculous to believe these conspiracy theories.

They make a fortune from the west.
 

61653 HTAFC

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Here's James Martin's take on "EV Poverty", where he addresses some of the issues I brought up earlier in a far more eloquent manner. No doubt many will still bury their heads in the sand of course.
 

jon0844

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Maybe if you bothered to read this thread, you'd see that cost has been discussed repeatedly. And also learn that prices are coming down, as we begin to get smaller vehicles and as the second hand market grows.

The video doesn't knock EVs in the way I think you think it does. Did you fully watch it, or just like the video title?

I'd say by 2025 the landscape will have changed drastically, let alone 2030 or 2035.
 

dgl

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China could only do something nasty once. Then that's it. No more sales abroad.

It's ridiculous to believe these conspiracy theories.

They make a fortune from the west.
Yes, a lot of our network infrastructure at work is Huawei (switches, hotspots Etc.) and they don't seem to be worried. The computers themselves are Dell or HP so the more important bits security wise are not made by Huawei.
 

Roast Veg

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Yes, a lot of our network infrastructure at work is Huawei (switches, hotspots Etc.) and they don't seem to be worried. The computers themselves are Dell or HP so the more important bits security wise are not made by Huawei.
If all of your traffic is properly Https encrypted anyway, no amount of theoretic Chinese spyware installed on network infrastructure is going to phone home with your mother's maiden name.
 

StKeverne1497

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I do hope we'll see 'dumber' EVs on the market as well as all the models that come with every toy (because most of the toys aren't that expensive to make, but are perceived as very expensive/premium, so it somehow justifies a hefty premium; the battery isn't the sole reason an EV can be so expensive).

This is also one of the reasons I'm holding back (though not the only one). I really don't want half my car functions to be accessible only via an app on my phone (and what happens when someone else drives it?). I don't want a bright LCD display which destroys my night vision (displays on current cars are bad enough, especially the one on our Citroën which keeps coming on even when you've told it to switch off) and I don't want to be paying a premium for a car which relies on a "subscription" package to keep running. In fact I'd quite like to have a car I can take to the little garage I've been using for many years when it needs servicing.

Money is obviously a concern, but there are companies out there which are beginning to enter this kind of market I think, though many of the bottom-end cars are little more than toys for city-based running around. I liked the concept of the Twizzy which was basically a souped-up Sinclair C5 but seems not to be available in the UK any more, and Aixam has a range of "quadricycles" which might suit some; the sorts of people who would love to commute by electric bike but it's just a smidge too far or too wet in the winter. Neither of those would suit my 24,000 miles a year though.

At the extreme you could always convert an existing fossil-fuelled car, and apart from the fact that it's still a very expensive undertaking even if DIY-ed, I'd quite happily find an old banger with good underpinnings and sensible instruments but maybe a shot engine and slot in a battery and electric motor, which isn't quite what Electrogenic do, but it's along the same lines.

(edited for one link and minor grammar errors)
 
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reddragon

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This is also one of the reasons I'm holding back (though not the only one). I really don't want half my car functions to be accessible only via an app on my phone (and what happens when someone else drives it?). I don't want a bright LCD display which destroys my night vision (displays on current cars are bad enough, especially the one on our Citroën which keeps coming on even when you've told it to switch off) and I don't want to be paying a premium for a car which relies on a "subscription" package to keep running. In fact I'd quite like to have a car I can take to the little garage I've been using for many years when it needs servicing.

Money is obviously a concern, but there are companies out there which are beginning to enter this kind of market I think, though many of the bottom-end cars are little more than toys for city-based running around. I liked the concept of the Twizzy which was basically a souped-up Sinclair C5 but seems not to be available in the UK any more, and Aixam has a range of "quadricycles" which might suit some; the sorts of people who would love to commute by electric bike but it's just a smidge to far or to wet in the winter. Neither of those would suit my 24,000 miles a year though.

At the extreme you could always convert an existing fossil-fuelled car, and apart from the fact that it's still a very expensive undertaking even if DIY-ed, I'd quite happily find an old banger with good underpinnings and sensible instruments but maybe a shot engine and slot in a battery and electric motor, which isn't quite what Electrogenic do, but it's along the same lines.
The older MG5 is a simple beast, rugged & over designed, no apps, nothing too complex but an older Windows based infotainment system
 

StKeverne1497

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If all of your traffic is properly Https encrypted anyway, no amount of theoretic Chinese spyware installed on network infrastructure is going to phone home with your mother's maiden name.
But it isn't, is it? Many websites still don't have https versions and at a very, very basic level DNS queries and IP headers are completely "plain text", so anyone who can sniff packets on your network at the very least knows where your data is going and where it is coming from, even if they can't see the data itself because it's encrypted, and you can learn a lot from those interactions; government agencies and law enforcement do it all the time. Now, if it's a switch on your own network it has to get that data out somehow and so you could rely on the firewall, but if that firewall is also compromised in the same way, all bets are off, and if the compromised switch is outside your network you have no control at all.

I'm in the middle of an upgrade of a small limited-purpose network. The original kit was Cisco, but boy is that stuff expensive. Cisco and HP (Aruba) both now have one or two "cheap" switches in their line-ups, but they get you in other ways. Specifically with HP it's lack of availability! In the end I settled on TP-Link, which are Chinese, but possibly not quite so heavily tied-in with the government as Huawei.

Apologies if too off-topic.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

The older MG5 is a simple beast, rugged & over designed, no apps, nothing too complex but an older Windows based infotainment system
You're implying that the newer version has fallen into the "too pretty by half" trap?

It's a thought - if I can find one that's not too old when I need to buy an EV - but the as-new range of 214 or 250 miles (according to Wikipedia) is marginal at best for my use (214 miles probably wouldn't work for me, 250 should do until it's below 90% or so).
 
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reddragon

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You're implying that the newer version has fallen into the "too pretty by half" trap?

It's a thought - if I can find one that's not too old when I need to buy an EV - but the as-new range of 214 or 250 miles (according to Wikipedia) is marginal at best for my use (214 miles probably wouldn't work for me, 250 should do until it's below 90% or so).
The refresh MG5 has added the app and Android based infotainment, lost buttons to the screen but no more
 

jon0844

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Money is obviously a concern, but there are companies out there which are beginning to enter this kind of market I think, though many of the bottom-end cars are little more than toys for city-based running around. I liked the concept of the Twizzy which was basically a souped-up Sinclair C5 but seems not to be available in the UK any more, and Aixam has a range of "quadricycles" which might suit some; the sorts of people who would love to commute by electric bike but it's just a smidge to far or to wet in the winter. Neither of those would suit my 24,000 miles a year though.

I saw a fair few Citroen Ami's in Paris, and they're fine for that sort of city centre environment. The limited speed isn't a big deal, and the range is fine.

But while Citroen was brave enough to bring them to the UK, and at a fairly reasonable price, I think I'd sooner pay another £500-1000 for a more powerful motor and air con (I don't think the Ami has this, but might be wrong). Thing is, I am not in a city and there are many roads locally that are 40-70mph, and I wouldn't want to routinely drive a vehicle that can barely reach 30mph on such roads. 50mph would probably be fine.

Ford has stupidly decided to focus on large vehicles (clearly since Ford USA took more control over other divisions like Ford Europe this was a given) and I think they're making a huge mistake. Axing the Fiesta (and I think the Ka was axed some time previous) seems ridiculous when both cars - which are hardly tiny these days - would make perfect city cars with the sufficient comfort for the occasional longer drive.

For someone doing 24k a year, I think the MG4 extended range (coming this spring?) would be ideal.
 

trebor79

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For someone doing 24k a year, I think the MG4 extended range (coming this spring?) would be ideal.
Yes the MG EVs are very competitive in terms of range and price. I've test drive the 5 and the ZS and both were absolutely fine for the price point.
 

Energy

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Ford has stupidly decided to focus on large vehicles (clearly since Ford USA took more control over other divisions like Ford Europe this was a given) and I think they're making a huge mistake. Axing the Fiesta (and I think the Ka was axed some time previous) seems ridiculous when both cars - which are hardly tiny these days - would make perfect city cars with the sufficient comfort for the occasional longer drive.
Is it stupid? Small cars like the Fiesta are high volume, small profit margin cars and have had their lower end eaten up by Dacia and the like. Meanwhile the Ford Puma is high volume (it sold around the same as the Vauxhall Corsa) and better profit margin, Ford don't offer the lower models on the Puma.

Stopping the Fiesta gives Ford the production space for the Puma EV which is likely to be high volume and high profit.
 

jon0844

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Yes, I think it is stupid. They can make the bigger cars too. They're not a small company!

There is a market for smaller, lighter and more efficient vehicles. EVs might be emissions free, but overweight SUVs have less range (or need bigger batteries) and can do more damage to road, be harder to park and so on.

The Fiesta has a best seller for decades. The industry has worked damn hard to get people to buy SUVs and crossover vehicles, and market them like perfumes, but during the current climate economically - there's even more demand for smaller, more affordable, cars.

But, you are right, the Chinese and others will gladly take up that marketshare - and they'll manage a profit too. They'll also make the bigger cars and eventually Ford will reconsider, which is absolutely will. I guarantee the Fiesta will return within ten years.
 

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