Fare Dodging - the new national sport?

[Haywain]

TPE (whose guards very rarely scan tickets)

Two TPE trains this week, both guards scanning and checking tickets.

 

[yorkie]

Two TPE trains this week, both guards scanning and checking tickets.

Wow I've literally had one scan in the past 3 years or so. The RMT asks it's members not to do so. Good on those who do, I say!

In contrast, it's rare to get on a Northern train and not be scanned.

As regards young adults wrongly buying child tickets, I thank them for at least paying something. It's the adults paying damn all who are the biggest problem it seems.

Is this a big problem?

I'm not sure if it is so am happy to hear from those who are in the business of checking these things. Are you a ticket inspector and if so, are you able to say where this is a big problem?

Is it mostly 16/17 year olds pretending to be under 15 who are the problem, or mostly people who are legally adults who are on the fiddle?

I would say the level of avoidance is so high that RPI's issuing hefty fines would pay for themselves in no time. Several hundred pounds there for the collecting as fines in my morning journey alone, that pays for the RPI and everyone else they get that day is pure profit.

Let's be clear that Train Companies going soft on dodgers is paid for by the honest majority who get the final bill. And my £4k is an astonishing bill. It's my money they're choosing not to collect by having no suitably trained/protected staff on major intercity trains.

Are they soft? Have you read the disputes and prosecutions section lately?

Even legitimate passengers are threatened with prosecution on some companies!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

As regards young adults wrongly buying child tickets, I thank them for at least paying something. It's the adults paying damn all who are the biggest problem it seems.

And acknowledge that for less frequent travellers and visitors to the country, some many assume a Child ticket to be for legal children, rather than legal children excluding those aged 16 and 17, who can get access to the same fares but must have a Railcard-discounted ticket instead, for £30/year.

 

[mrmartin]

Very odd take. We have incredibly harsh penalties for fare avoidance, IMO.

If you are caught and are unlucky (no PF issued for whatever reason, or you aren't aware of the repercussions of not accepting the PF), and you don't know the system (how to ask for an out of court settlement), you are very likely to end up with some sort of criminal conviction even on the first instance. You can see the dispute forum how many people are getting hit with this.

Compare this to motoring or parking, which is a similar offense in my eyes (probably worse imo given bad parking can cause a serious safety issue/access problems for disabled people). You'll basically never get more than a £40-60 ticket. You can (and people do) get hundreds of them, with no risk of criminal convictions. Even very dangerous speeding you'll get some points and a fine and rarely be prosecuted and end up with a criminal record - a criminal record which if you do manage to get most employers will completely discount (as they don't consider motoring convictions an actual conviction a lot of the time!).

Personally I'd like to see fare avoidance be decriminalised - and the only way you get a criminal record, like most things, is for persistently not paying the penalties by a court. Most hardcore fare avoiders already have extensive criminal records so they don't care about it. But for someone making a mistake/bad judgement with no criminal record they end up with a very big problem over really a minor problem (see this all the time on the dispute forum). Obviously more industrial fare avoidance (fake tickets etc) can be prosecuted for fraud.

 

[mangyiscute]

This is the way you have to see it from the company's point of view. If they employ more revenue inspection staff, or expand training for the current staff etc, is the cost of paying those staff going to be covered by the amount of money that they get from catching people who aren't buying tickets and also from people purchasing more tickets as a result of them being around. If this does not generate enough money, then they will not employ the staff, because it does not make sense from a business standpoint. It doesn't matter if it makes other passengers "feel bad", it is really that simple - company wants to make as much money as possible.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Feb 2023 ==

Very odd take. We have incredibly harsh penalties for fare avoidance, IMO.

If you are caught and are unlucky (no PF issued for whatever reason, or you aren't aware of the repercussions of not accepting the PF), and you don't know the system (how to ask for an out of court settlement), you are very likely to end up with some sort of criminal conviction even on the first instance. You can see the dispute forum how many people are getting hit with this.

Compare this to motoring or parking, which is a similar offense in my eyes (probably worse imo given bad parking can cause a serious safety issue/access problems for disabled people). You'll basically never get more than a £40-60 ticket. You can (and people do) get hundreds of them, with no risk of criminal convictions. Even very dangerous speeding you'll get some points and a fine and rarely be prosecuted and end up with a criminal record - a criminal record which if you do manage to get most employers will completely discount (as they don't consider motoring convictions an actual conviction a lot of the time!).

Personally I'd like to see fare avoidance be decriminalised - and the only way you get a criminal record, like most things, is for persistently not paying the penalties by a court. Most hardcore fare avoiders already have extensive criminal records so they don't care about it. But for someone making a mistake/bad judgement with no criminal record they end up with a very big problem over really a minor problem (see this all the time on the dispute forum). Obviously more industrial fare avoidance (fake tickets etc) can be prosecuted for fraud.

I wouldn't say incredibly harsh, and personally, I welcome the raise to £100 because £20 is not much imo, as you said most parking fines are like £50-80. The one thing I agree with is that people should always be given the opportunity to pay a simple fine (whether that's the penalty fare, or the anytime single for the route they're travelling or something else) and be done with it without it going anywhere else. However, once they refuse to pay a fine for whatever reason then I would argue that it's fair that the company can do whatever, they've already given an opportunity to get out of it easily.
I also expect that there are plenty of people who have received like 100 penalty fares without it going any further because they know that they should just pay it and that's it

 

[mrmartin]

I think we're agreeing entirely... the thing that is incredibly harsh is getting a criminal conviction for a first time fare dodge. They can put the fines up or whatever; but the criminal conviction part is what is extremely harsh. As you say should be able to pay a fine always.

 

[mangyiscute]

I think we're agreeing entirely... the thing that is incredibly harsh is getting a criminal conviction for a first time fare dodge. They can put the fines up or whatever; but the criminal conviction part is what is extremely harsh. As you say should be able to pay a fine always.

I disagree that it is "very likely", I have no idea how you've decided that, and you also seem to think that even repeat dodgers shouldn't have many repercussions, which is not the case

 

[Hadders]

It is. And that those are solely the jobs of a train dispatcher or a passenger assistant. The barrier very obviously should have had its own, specifically tasked staff - and if the company consistently fails to cover this, use agency staff on the gates at times of shortage.

The cost of employing separate staff at a small or even medium sized station would be more than the fares that might be evaded.

 

[185]

The cost of employing separate staff at a small or even medium sized station would be more than the fares that might be evaded.

Disagree.
The station in question was a grade 1-2 semi-major station. As for operational costs, at a similar size station with a gateline run by Northern, their human gateline is said to be entirely self-funding within the first 35 minutes of their shift. To me that's a no-brainer.

 

[mangyiscute]

Disagree.
The station in question was a grade 1-2 semi-major station. As for operational costs, at a similar size station with a gateline run by Northern, their human gateline is said to be entirely self-funding within the first 35 minutes of their shift. To me that's a no-brainer.

It depends on the sort of service the station gets too tho - if almost all of the trains have someone on board selling tickets, then basically no one will travel without a valid ticket so there wouldn't be any point in having a gate line too

 

[Wallsendmag]

It depends on the sort of service the station gets too tho - if almost all of the trains have someone on board selling tickets, then basically no one will travel without a valid ticket so there wouldn't be any point in having a gate line too

In an ideal world, yes but back in the real world.

 

[Wolfie]

Companies not being bothered about revenue protection is a quite serious concern, I hear it was briefly discussed within the DfT last week.

- OLR (ie Govt) Companies have a reasonable interest in revenue protection. Northern, LNER, Southeastern are directly managed by the DfT. Ticket money effectively goes to them... they're generally between keen and over-the-top.

- Some Non-OLR Companies seem to have little or no interest in revenue protection (at a higher management level). Their ticket money now goes to the DfT not their operator. They're generally around the level of 'is my face bovvered, am I bovvered'.

Evident at TPE (2021-22) guards striking over 2p a scan, and their finance director stated 'why should we pay them for it, it's not our money'.

Evident at some other operators with gatelines mostly left open despite many millions spent by the DfT installing them. At one operator, a reason given is that their staff are 'multi skilled and have to carry our wheelchair assists and dispatch trains so that's more important'. You really can't write it.

Evident at another operator with very few Revenue Protection Inspectors being deployed (should be on 1 train in 20, it's morelike 1:100). Their Revenue Protection Team is bizarrely targeted on £ - ticket sales only, so to cheat the figures their manager deploys the RPIs mostly as Revenue Protection Assistants 'ie ticket sellers' at a busy unstaffed commuter station from 7-9am.
i) An RPA is generally paid significantly less (£22K-ish) as they just sell tickets.
ii) The RPI pays well (£37K-ish) as they are PACE trained to deal with Fraud, Ticket Irregularities and issue Penalty Fares - not be a two-legged ticket machine.
As a result, fare evasion, doughnutting, e-ticket fraud / alterations and app misuse is well and truly out of control.

Merriman should OLR the lot, and not before time.

Southeastern keen on revenue protection? Hahahaha.

 

[185]

It depends on the sort of service the station gets too tho - if almost all of the trains have someone on board selling tickets, then basically no one will travel without a valid ticket so there wouldn't be any point in having a gate line too

At some middle-to-larger stations, despite open ticket offices and many machines, chancers are boarding in such large numbers that on-board staff are only be able to deal with 10-15% of them, there's simply not enough time. 12-month loss estimates at several stations were staggering. As the DfT is suddenly concerned about cash, these are the holes in the boat that perhaps need sealing up.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Feb 2023 ==

Southeastern keen on revenue protection? Hahahaha.

So, I'm imagining all the SE prosecutions threads on the Disputes & Prosecutions forum?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

At some middle-to-larger stations, despite open ticket offices and many machines, chancers are boarding in such large numbers that on-board staff are only be able to deal with 10-15% of them, there's simply not enough time.

I wonder what stations are the bigger offenders for this, in my area I say Wigan North Western stands a chance at being a decent candidate
1. No ticket barriers
2. Rare station ticket checks
3. Avanti services for long distance and high demands, with the shortest journeys each way being only 10 min, easily enough time to get away with it.

 

[eroded]

Full ticket check in standard class on Avanti, Euston to Manchester this afternoon.

Lad near me presented an advance for a later service, claimed the gateline staff told him it was okay. TM said he was on the gateline himself and they would not have said that.

After 2 minutes of arguing back and forth, the TM lets him off.

 

[RJ]

Rudimentary fare evasion may be a small percentage of total trips made but there's no shortage of people who are undeterred by anything other than police presence - and I don't blame anyone who doesn't want to put themselves at risk of confrontation by challenging these people without adequate support. It'd be interesting to know how many people doing more elaborate schemes like card number fraud, season ticket, smartcard and printing fraud are caught. I understand a lot of these schemes but only use my knowledge for good, but a lot of stuff which can be detected seems to go under the level where the radar is set.

 

[philthetube]

I wonder what stations are the bigger offenders for this, in my area I say Wigan North Western stands a chance at being a decent candidate
1. No ticket barriers
2. Rare station ticket checks
3. Avanti services for long distance and high demands, with the shortest journeys each way being only 10 min, easily enough time to get away with it.

I travelled coach B, Preston to London, the guard started on tickets immediately on leaving Preston and had only reached 3 rows down B on arrival at Wigan.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

I travelled coach B, Preston to London, the guard started on tickets immediately on leaving Preston and had only reached 3 rows down B on arrival at Wigan.

I feel like to RPI a 390 you'd need to either randomly pick a carriage and just do that with like 2 staff at each end or do it on the super fast that doesn't stop for 110 minutes between Euston and Warrington.

 

[sk688]

In a year of doing Milton Keynes to London , I could count on one hand the number of ticket checks on Avanti WC services , surprised to hear they're actually checking tickets now.

Even on MK-Birmingham journeys ticket checks were rare.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

That's correct. My local station is Stevenage and the vast majprity of trains are 8 or 12 car driver only. You do see revenue protection inspectors on trains and they issue Penalty Fares or take details to report for prosecution.

Really? You're on the same Thameslink line (Horsham - Peterborough) as I am and everytime I went on Thameslink, not once did I ever see a ticket inspector checking tickets onboard.

 

[Bungaroosh]

I've heard from people quite a few times: "Nobody checked my ticket [and/or "the barriers were open]. I needn't have bothered buying one [and will think twice about buying one next time]". With the implication that it would be perfectly fine to just travel for free if you weren't going to have your ticket checked.

I knew somebody years ago who used to travel from Streatham Common into central London for years without buying any ticket – before stations had barriers.

I've just done a web search on her. Seems she's now a solicitor.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

With the implication that it would be perfectly fine to just travel for free if you weren't going to have your ticket checked.

Perfectly fine:
Legally, no
Morally, no (to most of us)
Financially (for the person), yes

 

[bicbasher]

So, I'm imagining all the SE prosecutions threads on the Disputes & Prosecutions forum?

Yet at Abbey Wood you have to touch out and back in again from the Southeastern side to the Elizabeth line as the Greenwich line has been a fare evaders paradise for decades.

 

[mangyiscute]

I will say I have once ridden on a train without a ticket, purely because I knew for certain that this train was going to be absolutely rammed (it was the 22:02 out of Paddington, I went to Reading) since they always ran it as a 5 coach. Morally, I see this situation as if GWR can't be bothered to run an acceptable service (in the summer this service was rammed every day, they were having to shut the barriers 5 mins before departure) then why should I bother buying a ticket?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

then why should I bother buying a ticket?

because you legally have to?

Also were you not at risk at the barriers at Reading?

 

[Hadders]

Really? You're on the same Thameslink line (Horsham - Peterborough) as I am and everytime I went on Thameslink, not once did I ever see a ticket inspector checking tickets onboard.

They certainly aren’t on every train, only a small minority but as a regular travelled I do see them.

Tickets barriers are manned continuously at St Pancras and very late into the evening at Stevenage. Today at Stevenage they were rejecting railcard discounted tickets so they could do a manual check.

As I keep saying the object of the exercise is to maximise revenue. They won’t collect every single fare possible, the cost of doing that would end up being more than the fares but taking everything in the round they’re probably found a reasonable job at the moment.

The number of GTR cases we see in Disputes & Prosecutions is a further indicator that checks are taking place. The cases we hear about will only ever be a very small number of the overall number.

 

[Bungaroosh]

I will say I have once ridden on a train without a ticket, purely because I knew for certain that this train was going to be absolutely rammed (it was the 22:02 out of Paddington, I went to Reading) since they always ran it as a 5 coach. Morally, I see this situation as if GWR can't be bothered to run an acceptable service (in the summer this service was rammed every day, they were having to shut the barriers 5 mins before departure) then why should I bother buying a ticket?

Confession: in 1996 I travelled without a ticket from Harringay to Hornsey. I got nabbed by an inspector on the train and ran away from him and out of the station when the train arrived in. He yelled something after me about it being an illegal act.

I didn't have enough cash to buy a ticket (the days before ticket machines took cards), and I got on the train without a ticket in the first place to get to a cashpoint to draw out cash to buy a Day Travelcard. Strictly I shouldn't have done it (and would have no reason to now, as machines take cards). But that was probably the first and only time I'd ever travelled without a ticket, and just my luck: an inspector also happened to be on that train.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

They certainly aren’t on every train, only a small minority but as a regular travelled I do see them.

Tickets barriers are manned continuously at St Pancras and very late into the evening at Stevenage. Today at Stevenage they were rejecting railcard discounted tickets so they could do a manual check.

As I keep saying the object of the exercise is to maximise revenue. They won’t collect every single fare possible, the cost of doing that would end up being more than the fares but taking everything in the round they’re probably found a reasonable job at the moment.

The number of GTR cases we see in Disputes & Prosecutions is a further indicator that checks are taking place. The cases we hear about will only ever be a very small number of the overall number.

They did reject Railcard discounted tickets at Horsham too a couple of days ago. But not at London Victoria

 

[Mcr Warrior]

They did reject Railcard discounted tickets at Horsham too a couple of days ago. But not at London Victoria

Presumably this is how railcard discount irregularities can readily be identified (no railcard held / expired railcard held / wrong discount claimed, etc).

Can barriers also be programmed to reject all tickets from the next station along the line, e.g. tickets ostensibly from Wembley Stadium at London Marylebone, to allow further checking for possible short faring irregularities, particularly so if the incoming train hasn't actually called at Wembley Stadium?

 

[Meerkat]

Perfectly fine:
Legally, no
Morally, no (to most of us)
Financially (for the person), yes

Its a sort of moral thing. If the railway looks like it doesn't care about people not paying then people get bitter about having paid for an expensive ticket. I think there is something psychological about the ticket check/barrier being what you have paid for, rather than the trip itself.
Its also a bit like the break down of a queue - a few queue jumpers is tutted at, but it eventually reaches a tipping point and the queue disintegrates into a crush.