Fare Dodging - the new national sport?

[Roy1234]

When did it become OK to travel without a train ticket?

As a youngster in the 1970s/80s, being caught on a train without a valid ticket was no small matter. A schoolfriend who was caught one Saturday travelling with his Local Authority (free) school pass, valid only on weekdays, was called back for a succession of long gruelling interviews with Transport Police over several weeks. They wanted to break down his story that this was an innocent mistake, it seemed, like he was some hardcore criminal. He didn't crack.

In modern times, so many respectable office staff I've known will simply never buy a ticket. They dodge inspectors, those with tickets maybe texting location warnings to those without. They use disabled lifts to bypass barriers. One lady admitted to me she'd just cry her way out of trouble if ever challenged.

Every day a man in his late 50s boards along with me, too early for barriers to be staffed hence open, and gets off 10 mins later at a minor station without barriers. About once a month he's caught without a ticket, but they just sell him one and politely move on. This being despite him walking past a staffed & open ticket office and working ticket machines. Plus he has a smartphone he could have bought one on, like most of the world. Never has it been easier to get a ticket; never has less fuss followed not having one.

Then there are the 'sorry I only have cash' dodgers who know the inspector won't normally accept it. So they agree to buy one at their destination, which means they drift around looking for an unguarded (open) barrier or else an open fire exit door. At the worst, they just buy a ticket as if travelled from the nearest station to their destination and so save plenty. Then there's the odd aggressive passenger, who may rarely get faced down by an off-duty policeman, who also travel free of charge by flashing their warrant cards.

I have, very rarely, heard of fines being implemented instead, someone said £100 now. But against daily fare dodging, that still works out as a bargain price overall.

Then there are mugs like me paying nearly £4k annually in advance, who feel like we sponsor all the rest.

Can anyone explain how and when this all happened?

 

[Hadders]

I don't condone fare dodging at all but I thinkj you're looking at the past through rose tinted specs. It has always gone on and always will do. Just because you didn't witness it in the past, or saw someone get caught and given a difficult time doesn't mean it didn't happen.

A quick look at the Disputes & Prosecutions section of this forum will reveal that the railway do catch people evading their fares!

 

[Roy1234]

So why is someone caught without a ticket, and without a valid reason for not buying one, just politely sold one 99% of the time? What policy has changed?

 

[Hadders]

So why is someone caught without a ticket, and without a valid reason for not buying one, just politely sold one 99% of the time? What policy has changed?

There can be many reasons why someone doesn't have a ticket when they board a train. On my local line someone without a ticket wouldn't be sold one onboard, they would likely be sold a Penalty Fare or have their details taken.

 

[Watershed]

So why is someone caught without a ticket, and without a valid reason for not buying one, just politely sold one 99% of the time? What policy has changed?

Presuming you are talking about services have a guard, ticket examiner or OBS, the vast majority of checks will be undertaken by staff who are not trained to issue Penalty Fares. They will also be on their own 99% of time, which means that there is a risk associated with doing more than selling a ticket, as a small minority of people will react badly to being challenged.

 

[Roy1234]

There can be many reasons why someone doesn't have a ticket when they board a train. On my local line someone without a ticket wouldn't be sold one onboard, they would likely be sold a Penalty Fare or have their details taken.

Well I find that quite astonishing based on my experience. My train starts at a staffed station where the crew themselves board, with ticket office open, so clearly no excuses apply.

Presuming you are talking about services have a guard, ticket examiner or OBS, the vast majority of checks will be undertaken by staff who are not trained to issue Penalty Fares. They will also be on their own 99% of time, which means that there is a risk associated with doing more than selling a ticket, as a small minority of people will react badly to being challenged.

I accept there may be risk issues challenging travellers without tickets if alone, but as you say that's probably 99% of the time. Which fits with my experience even on a long intercity route. So why is Hadders always seeing Penalties being applied instead of tickets sold? Does that line have more staff than my 8 carriage train? Or are some routes/cities seen as more dangerous to attempt fines on?

 

[Haywain]

So why is Hadders always seeing Penalties being applied instead of tickets sold? Does that line have more staff than my 8 carriage train? Or are some routes/cities seen as more dangerous to attempt fines on?

On some lines the only on board checks are carried out by revenue protection staff. At other times there are no checks because trains are under driver only operation.

 

[ainsworth74]

So why is Hadders always seeing Penalties being applied instead of tickets sold? Does that line have more staff than my 8 carriage train? Or are some routes/cities seen as more dangerous to attempt fines on?

@Hadders will correct me if I'm wrong but I suspect that the only staff that check tickets on board his local trains are revenue protection inspectors meaning that they're trained and able to issue Penalty Fares.

On my line (Darlington - Saltburn), however, every train has a conductor most of which do check and sell tickets but are not trained to issue Penalty Fares but we also have RPIs who effectively roam (so one day they might check one train, the next a different and so on). So one day someone without a ticket might be sold a ticket but the next, on the same train, they could get a Penalty Fare.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Personally I'm disappointed that guards/conductors aren't trained to issue penalty fares, I've seen us leave a station that very clearly has ticket machines and then right after leaving guard comes through and sells someone who's been sat on the train >5 mins as if they didn't have time to buy one before. I've only seen RPI staff on my commute once [in 5 months] (Although it is a short one) at which point I think they encountered some people without a ticket since it looked like they were held up a bit as I was getting off.

Then there are mugs like me paying nearly £4k annually in advance, who feel like we sponsor all the rest.

I definitely sympathise with that, although fortunately my 16-17 saver, relatively short commute, and use of a flexi season leave me a bit less out of pocket.

 

[ainsworth74]

Personally I'm disappointed that guards/conductors aren't trained to issue penalty fares, I've seen us leave a station that very clearly has ticket machines and then right after leaving guard comes through and sells someone who's been sat on the train >5 mins as if they didn't have time to buy one before.

I can see why you'd be disapointed but it's worth considering that RPIs usually (though not always) operate in pairs for safety, guards/conductors don't. Issuing PF can take a fair bit longer than issuing a ticket meaning that on many routes you'd be delaying the service by issuing PFs rather than being able to go and release and/or close doors. It's really a different job and I can see why it's done by specific staff rather than just anyone who happens to be able to issue tickets.

 

[johntea]

I travelled on a few Northern services today, one seemed to have a dedicated guard stood in the middle who started checking tickets prior to departure (Don't think they were RPI) and on the way home out of Leeds a guard decided to start their checks from the opposite end of the train and some teenagers were sat behind me, one had a child ticket and one had a dead phone...to my surprise the child ticket was actually a child (the guard did the quickfire date of birth check!) and the dead phone passenger thought fair enough after checking the guard didn't have a charging cable going spare and happily paid for a new ticket...alarm bells rang slightly when they said their destination was 'Woodlesford' i.e. the first stop of the train but they did get off there!

I don't think I've ever seen a penalty fare being issued on the Northern services I travel on (unless of course the customer is being a so and so or obviously trying to fare dodge full stop), just tickets along with a friendly pointer to make sure they buy before they board or have a valid ticket the next time which on one hand is good customer service but on the other not so good if the passenger ends up bumping into revenue protection 'next time'!

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Would it be profitable to increase the amount of RPI, we can't really be sure how many people are tricking the fare, and if it would be more prevalent on lines where protection is lacking for a while or at certain times?

guard did the quickfire date of birth check!

Never really heard of that being done, but I feel like it wouldn't be hard for a 16/17 year old to just -2 from the year they were born to pass the 'test'.

 

[Horizon22]

Never really heard of that being done, but I feel like it wouldn't be hard for a 16/17 year old to just -2 from the year they were born to pass the 'test'.

That’s why it’s quickfire - most people should no their DOB just like that and people lying about it might trip themselves up over it

 

[pokemonsuper9]

That’s why it’s quickfire - most people should no their DOB just like that and people lying about it might trip themselves up over it

hmm, guess it depends on the person really, and how prepared they are for it.
I kinda want to see a guard pull that test on a certain 'regular traveller' by me and see if they get caught out by it.

 

[zero]

Never really heard of that being done, but I feel like it wouldn't be hard for a 16/17 year old to just -2 from the year they were born to pass the 'test'.

You've failed the test, you mean +2

I saw two people fail the test this week, one of them made your mistake too. I assume that boy was born in 2004 but quite confidently said he was born in 2002 when he should have said 2006.

The other one got really flustered and eventually gave up and said I don't know, the guard maintained a straight face and said you need to buy a new adult ticket then - which she did.

I saw someone ask for a child ticket on board and he passed the test - to me he looked 19 or 20 but you can't always tell. Then he paid by Google Pay, and it seems that google only allows 16+ (though it looks like apple pay allows 13+)

 

[arb]

I once overheard a guard use the following line of questioning, which I was quite impressed with:

- That's a child ticket. Are you under 18?
- Yes
- What's your date of birth?
- (got an appropriate answer)
- That makes you 17, right?
- Yes, that's right.
- Child tickets are only for under 16s.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

it seems that google only allows 16+

It's pretty easy to get around age barriers, I wouldn't use that as penalty reasoning or age ID
I can't speak for google pay particularly but making a google account you can put any age in.

 

[BenS123]

He paid by Google Pay, and it seems that google only allows 16+ (though it looks like apple pay allows 13+)

I know that Santander lets people under 16 use Google pay (I have a friend who uses Google pay and they're 15) so I think Google pay doesn't have an age barrier as such, it's set by the banks I think.

I can't insert a quote for some reason as I'm on mobile but about post 17 - if your bank does set an age barrier it's almost impossible to get around as you need to give a scan of ID to banks when signing up for an account. Faking said ID would be fraud.

 

[Hadders]

@Hadders will correct me if I'm wrong but I suspect that the only staff that check tickets on board his local trains are revenue protection inspectors meaning that they're trained and able to issue Penalty Fares.

That's correct. My local station is Stevenage and the vast majprity of trains are 8 or 12 car driver only. You do see revenue protection inspectors on trains and they issue Penalty Fares or take details to report for prosecution.

In addition the main stations have ticket barriers. These do not guarantee that the correct fare has been paid but it does at least make sure that something is paid. The vast mahjority will pay the right fare.

Would it be profitable to increase the amount of RPI, we can't really be sure how many people are tricking the fare, and if it would be more prevalent on lines where protection is lacking for a while or at certain times?

If it was profitable then they would do it. There are regaular surveys to measure the amount of ticketless travel so the industry knows the size of the issue.

We regularly have this debate on this forum, we had a very similar thread just last week. Remeber the main purpose of checking tickets is to maximise revenue, it's not to catch people and put them through the courts. Sometimes you do have to do that as part of an effective deterrent but it is an expensive and time consuming to do so and even if they are found guilty at court there is no guarantee they will pay their fine - the rail company only gets compensation for the fare avoided when the person pays up.

I will repeat what I've said several times before about why return tickets are often only 10p or £1 more than a single. It is a brilliant way of maximising revenue. There are at least six opportunities to check a tickets on a typical return journey:

On the outward journey at the starting station
Onboard during the outward journey
At the station at the end of the outward journey
On the return journey at the starting station
Onboard during the return journey
At the station at the end of the return journey

As long as one of these checks takes place the railway will recover it's money. It's a very simple and effective puiece of revenue protection. Moves to single leg pricing mean it won't hold true in the same way though although the use of online ticketing, etickets and smartcards opens up a whole load of new ways to identify offenders.

 

[185]

Companies not being bothered about revenue protection is a quite serious concern, I hear it was briefly discussed within the DfT last week.

- OLR (ie Govt) Companies have a reasonable interest in revenue protection. Northern, LNER, Southeastern are directly managed by the DfT. Ticket money effectively goes to them... they're generally between keen and over-the-top.

- Some Non-OLR Companies seem to have little or no interest in revenue protection (at a higher management level). Their ticket money now goes to the DfT not their operator. They're generally around the level of 'is my face bovvered, am I bovvered'.

Evident at TPE (2021-22) guards striking over 2p a scan, and their finance director stated 'why should we pay them for it, it's not our money'.

Evident at some other operators with gatelines mostly left open despite many millions spent by the DfT installing them. At one operator, a reason given is that their staff are 'multi skilled and have to carry our wheelchair assists and dispatch trains so that's more important'. You really can't write it.

Evident at another operator with very few Revenue Protection Inspectors being deployed (should be on 1 train in 20, it's morelike 1:100). Their Revenue Protection Team is bizarrely targeted on £ - ticket sales only, so to cheat the figures their manager deploys the RPIs mostly as Revenue Protection Assistants 'ie ticket sellers' at a busy unstaffed commuter station from 7-9am.
i) An RPA is generally paid significantly less (£22K-ish) as they just sell tickets.
ii) The RPI pays well (£37K-ish) as they are PACE trained to deal with Fraud, Ticket Irregularities and issue Penalty Fares - not be a two-legged ticket machine.
As a result, fare evasion, doughnutting, e-ticket fraud / alterations and app misuse is well and truly out of control.

Merriman should OLR the lot, and not before time.

 

[flythetube]

@Hadders will correct me if I'm wrong but I suspect that the only staff that check tickets on board his local trains are revenue protection inspectors meaning that they're trained and able to issue Penalty Fares.

On my line (Darlington - Saltburn), however, every train has a conductor most of which do check and sell tickets but are not trained to issue Penalty Fares but we also have RPIs who effectively roam (so one day they might check one train, the next a different and so on). So one day someone without a ticket might be sold a ticket but the next, on the same train, they could get a Penalty Fare.

There may well be ticket vending machines at stations but out in the middle of nowhere they may not accept cash for security reasons and vandalism theft.

Many people paying on board often do so with cash including younger children travelling who may not have a bank account yet.

 

[ainsworth74]

There may well be ticket vending machines at stations but out in the middle of nowhere they may not accept cash for security reasons and vandalism theft.

Many people paying on board often do so with cash including younger children travelling who may not have a bank account yet.

Yes? I'm not quite sure I understand your point.

However, in any event, up in Northern land if you want to pay with case you just get a Promise to Pay from the machine and present that onboard along with your cash. If you don't have a Promise to Pay and wish to pay with cash then a Penalty Fare can be issued.

 

[185]

I once overheard a guard use the following line of questioning, which I was quite impressed with

Oldest one in the book, I learnt it from an old hand RPI some decades ago.

 

[Haywain]

Evident at some other operators with gatelines mostly left open despite many millions spent by the DfT installing them. At one operator, a reason given is that their staff are 'multi skilled and have to carry our wheelchair assists and dispatch trains so that's more important'.

Where has the DfT spent millions on gatelines? On the wider issue of gates being left open, it is a real challenge to provide agreed minimum numbers of staff while allowing for breaks and so on, and small amounts of sickness can result in numbers not being met and gates being left open. It can be sickness/absence in other roles that causes the problems.

 

[yorkie]

When did it become OK to travel without a train ticket?

As a youngster in the 1970s/80s, being caught on a train without a valid ticket was no small matter. A schoolfriend who was caught one Saturday travelling with his Local Authority (free) school pass, valid only on weekdays, was called back for a succession of long gruelling interviews with Transport Police over several weeks. They wanted to break down his story that this was an innocent mistake, it seemed, like he was some hardcore criminal. He didn't crack.

In modern times, so many respectable office staff I've known will simply never buy a ticket. They dodge inspectors, those with tickets maybe texting location warnings to those without. They use disabled lifts to bypass barriers. One lady admitted to me she'd just cry her way out of trouble if ever challenged.

Every day a man in his late 50s boards along with me, too early for barriers to be staffed hence open, and gets off 10 mins later at a minor station without barriers. About once a month he's caught without a ticket, but they just sell him one and politely move on. This being despite him walking past a staffed & open ticket office and working ticket machines. Plus he has a smartphone he could have bought one on, like most of the world. Never has it been easier to get a ticket; never has less fuss followed not having one.

Then there are the 'sorry I only have cash' dodgers who know the inspector won't normally accept it. So they agree to buy one at their destination, which means they drift around looking for an unguarded (open) barrier or else an open fire exit door. At the worst, they just buy a ticket as if travelled from the nearest station to their destination and so save plenty. Then there's the odd aggressive passenger, who may rarely get faced down by an off-duty policeman, who also travel free of charge by flashing their warrant cards.

I have, very rarely, heard of fines being implemented instead, someone said £100 now. But against daily fare dodging, that still works out as a bargain price overall.

Then there are mugs like me paying nearly £4k annually in advance, who feel like we sponsor all the rest.

Can anyone explain how and when this all happened?

I don't understand this post at all. When did what happen? What exactly are your claims and do you have any evidence to back these up?

Are you purely basing your claims (whatever they are exactly) on anecdotes?

It was reported on another thread that ticketless travel on Northern had reduced massively in recent years.

Are you referring to a specific company such as TPE (whose guards very rarely scan tickets) which has skewed your observations?

 

[Birmingham]

At one operator, a reason given is that their staff are 'multi skilled and have to carry our wheelchair assists and dispatch trains so that's more important'. You really can't write it.

Unclear what your point is? Dispatching trains and boarding wheelchair users clearly is more important than staffing barriers…

 

[185]

Unclear what your point is? Dispatching trains and boarding wheelchair users clearly is more important than staffing barriers…

It is. And that those are solely the jobs of a train dispatcher or a passenger assistant. The barrier very obviously should have had its own, specifically tasked staff - and if the company consistently fails to cover this, use agency staff on the gates at times of shortage.

 

[Roy1234]

As regards young adults wrongly buying child tickets, I thank them for at least paying something. It's the adults paying damn all who are the biggest problem it seems.

I would say the level of avoidance is so high that RPI's issuing hefty fines would pay for themselves in no time. Several hundred pounds there for the collecting as fines in my morning journey alone, that pays for the RPI and everyone else they get that day is pure profit.

Let's be clear that Train Companies going soft on dodgers is paid for by the honest majority who get the final bill. And my £4k is an astonishing bill. It's my money they're choosing not to collect by having no suitably trained/protected staff on major intercity trains.

 

[ainsworth74]

Let's be clear that Train Companies going soft on dodgers is paid for by the honest majority who get the final bill.

But how are they going soft? People are regularly getting issued Penalty Fares, people are regularly getting prosecuted for failing to buy or present valid tickets. You might not have seen it on the journeys you make but I certainly have seen Penalty Fares being issued, or tickets being sold (where appropriate) and you just have a look at the Disputes & Prosecutions section (or even almost any local newspaper) to find information on people being prosecuted.

 

[Roy1234]

But how are they going soft? People are regularly getting issued Penalty Fares, people are regularly getting prosecuted for failing to buy or present valid tickets. You might not have seen it on the journeys you make but I certainly have seen Penalty Fares being issued, or tickets being sold (where appropriate) and you just have a look at the Disputes & Prosecutions section (or even almost any local newspaper) to find information on people being prosecuted.

Issuing a ticket when the passenger evaded every chance to get one is going soft. The chance to buy a ticket at normal price should have gone as they stepped aboard. But prior posts suggests they lack the RPI's or trained staff to do so. So potentially huge penalty fares are, in my experience over many years, almost never applied. You never used to just buy a ticket when caught without one. There may be prosecutions, but if they're only 1% of avoided fares, that is just going soft.