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Just for fun (Which lines 'if electrified' would reduce the most carbon ?)

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GRALISTAIR

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Feel like the Erewash valley line should be done along with the mml.
Agreed but what would you do first. MML gets done to just north of Sheffield as currently planned.
1) Sheffield -Doncaster
2) Sheffield - Leeds
3) Sheffield to York
4) Sheffield to Nottingham both routes

So I am not sure - in the spirit of the thread which order to do them to remove most carbon.
 
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zwk500

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Agreed but what would you do first. MML gets done to just north of Sheffield as currently planned.
1) Sheffield -Doncaster
2) Sheffield - Leeds
3) Sheffield to York
4) Sheffield to Nottingham both routes

So I am not sure - in the spirit of the thread which order to do them to remove most carbon.
Sheffield to Doncaster is the obvious first extension. Followed by Sheffield to Nottingham, then to Leeds and only last to York.
 

GRALISTAIR

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Sheffield to Doncaster is the obvious first extension. Followed by Sheffield to Nottingham, then to Leeds and only last to York.
I tend to agree. If planning is done well (I can hope!) then a nice full length wire run would be done at each junction to make subsequent electrification easier. A bit like Fylde Junction being done in 1973 to make Preston-Blackpool easier later.
 

Mzzzs

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Agreed but what would you do first. MML gets done to just north of Sheffield as currently planned.
1) Sheffield -Doncaster
2) Sheffield - Leeds
3) Sheffield to York
4) Sheffield to Nottingham both routes

So I am not sure - in the spirit of the thread which order to do them to remove most carbon.
My order would be with first at the top:
Sheffield -Doncaster think that's very obvious.
Sheffield - Leeds.
Sheffield to Nottingham both routes think ideally around the same time as Sheffield - Leeds.
Sheffield to York can't think of a service this really benefits.
 

Peterthegreat

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My order would be with first at the top:
Sheffield -Doncaster think that's very obvious.
Sheffield - Leeds.
Sheffield to Nottingham both routes think ideally around the same time as Sheffield - Leeds.
Sheffield to York can't think of a service this really benefits.
But assuming the other routes are done Sheffield to York would actually only be Moorthorpe to Church Fenton. May be useful for freight - particularly if the Erewash is also done.
 

GRALISTAIR

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But assuming the other routes are done Sheffield to York would actually only be Moorthorpe to Church Fenton. May be useful for freight - particularly if the Erewash is also done.
That was my thought pattern too. Assuming Nottingham to Sheffield is done, then Sheffield to Doncaster first, followed by Sheffield to Leeds (again parts would be done already) then Moorthorpe to Church Fenton - it is the absolute beauty of a rolling programme - each bit gets easier and shorter.
 

Peter0124

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I suppose you could wire the Edinburgh sub, reopen stations on it and run some of the Shotts stopper trains through there and round into Waverley via Craigentinny.

Would miss Haymarket though.

And yes I absolutely agree with those saying London Gateway should be wired, because running diesels for ~200 miles to Crewe (then swapping for 90s to Scotland) because it's not wired isn't fun at all.
 

zwk500

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I suppose you could wire the Edinburgh sub, reopen stations on it and run some of the Shotts stopper trains through there and round into Waverley via Craigentinny.

Would miss Haymarket though.
Wouldn't really reduce any carbon though, operating a new service.

Wiring the Fife Circle would probably be quite favourable on a passenger/km basis.
 

Bald Rick

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And yes I absolutely agree with those saying London Gateway should be wired, because running diesels for ~200 miles to Crewe (then swapping for 90s to Scotland) because it's not wired isn't fun at all.

Whilst I agree with the sentiment, there are only two trains a day from Gateway to Scotland, and one of them often doesn’t run. And they could change to electric at Wembley, of course.
 

Nottingham59

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London Gateway should be wired, because running diesels for ~200 miles to Crewe (then swapping for 90s to Scotland) because it's not wired isn't fun at all.
Could a class 88 do that run? The un-electrified part from Gateway to Stanford-le-hope must be very flat, so would a 940hp diesel be enough?
 

zwk500

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Most freight depots, cheap and allows 90s to run minus loco change and 88s to run whole journeys pan up
Although putting a container on a flat wagon under an electrified wire doesn't always work very well, so you either need expensive moveable OLE or a diesel/battery shunter on site to use 90s (88s of course would be fine shunting the trains on their own).
 

Meerkat

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Although putting a container on a flat wagon under an electrified wire doesn't always work very well, so you either need expensive moveable OLE or a diesel/battery shunter on site to use 90s (88s of course would be fine shunting the trains on their own).
Put the yard on a slope, let the train roll and have blokes legging it along applying the brakes.
Worked on the old hump shunt yards - what could possibly go wrong? :lol:
 

Ken H

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Put the yard on a slope, let the train roll and have blokes legging it along applying the brakes.
Worked on the old hump shunt yards - what could possibly go wrong? :lol:
Dowty retarders would be better!
 

zwk500

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Put the yard on a slope, let the train roll and have blokes legging it along applying the brakes.
Worked on the old hump shunt yards - what could possibly go wrong? :lol:
Still got to get the train out again! (Yes you can just wire the ends like Willesden SW Sidings and Trafford Park Had/Have). You also need a fair bit more space for a hump yard.
 

Ken H

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Still got to get the train out again! (Yes you can just wire the ends like Willesden SW Sidings and Trafford Park Had/Have). You also need a fair bit more space for a hump yard.
Could you train camels to drag the trains out of the hump yard?

Coat
 

Meerkat

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Still got to get the train out again! (Yes you can just wire the ends like Willesden SW Sidings and Trafford Park Had/Have). You also need a fair bit more space for a hump yard.
Nah…the sidings go uphill. Push the train in and let it roll out agai……

In fact how many sidings can’t the train be pushed in with wires upto the limit of the overhead loading/unloading facility, with a runaround first if necessary? Have a reach wagon in the cripple siding if necessary.
 

zwk500

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Nah…the sidings go uphill. Push the train in and let it roll out agai……
Yeah can't see the ORR/RSSB having any problems with that :D Would make Container loading more fun though if you've got to time it right on a train impersonating a Pirate Ship fairground ride.
In fact how many sidings can’t the train be pushed in with wires upto the limit of the overhead loading/unloading facility, with a runaround first if necessary? Have a reach wagon in the cripple siding if necessary.
Not sure I quite understand the question, but if you are running around first you will either need the loop available, or 2 wired reception roads and then a long headshunt. Reach wagons in the Cripple siding would somewhat negate the point of a cripple siding, as well as being a maintenance liability.
 

Meerkat

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Yeah can't see the ORR/RSSB having any problems with that :D Would make Container loading more fun though if you've got to time it right on a train impersonating a Pirate Ship fairground ride.

Not sure I quite understand the question, but if you are running around first you will either need the loop available, or 2 wired reception roads and then a long headshunt. Reach wagons in the Cripple siding would somewhat negate the point of a cripple siding, as well as being a maintenance liability.
Or a looped headshunt if you can’t run round on the mainline.
The movable catenary is the answer to everything except gantry loaded container isn’t it, and they are surely big enough to have loops or a battery shunter, which would improve local noise and pollution.
 

zwk500

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Or a looped headshunt if you can’t run round on the mainline.
The land take for this is getting slightly silly.
The movable catenary is the answer to everything except gantry loaded container isn’t it, and they are surely big enough to have loops or a battery shunter, which would improve local noise and pollution.
For a single loading road, moveable catenary is one potential answer. It may even be viable to have Twin-Track cantilever swingable Overhead power so that Reach Stackers could be used (they can span to a second track). However yes for gantry cranes it's unlikely to be feasible without shunters or some element of complicated operations.

However the true answer is last-mile power. You wouldn't need very many batteries and there's plenty of space within a 20m loco to fit them in for rolling less than 2km off the wires into position. As long as the wires cover the standage in rear of the signal protecting the mainline, so departure proper can be made with the pan up.
 

Peter0124

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Although putting a container on a flat wagon under an electrified wire doesn't always work very well, so you either need expensive moveable OLE or a diesel/battery shunter on site to use 90s (88s of course would be fine shunting the trains on their own).
Only wire the entrance/exit to the freight yard, and have the locos shunt there.
 

Irascible

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I think the idea is to wire the head end of sidings only, which is ok until it isn't :p battery tugs of some sort ( they don't even have to be railed if it's an apron with embedded sidings ) seem the sensible route for shunting either way.
 

Nottingham59

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Only wire the entrance/exit to the freight yard, and have the locos shunt there.
This. Use a class 88 or Class 93 and you only benefit from electrification where linespeeds are over 10-15mph. The diesel has quite enough to power to shunt trains of any weight at low speeds in flat freight yards and docksides.

See here:
https://www.railengineer.co.uk/class-93-tri-mode-locos-on-order/
Below 10mph, the tractive effort and hence acceleration of a class 93 is the same under diesel as it is under electric.

1676374218324.png
 

eldomtom2

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The battery figure is more interesting there, since if it's as good as a diesel for shunting we can ditch the diesel generator altogether and just have bimode battery-electrics.
 

GRALISTAIR

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I think the idea is to wire the head end of sidings only, which is ok until it isn't :p battery tugs of some sort ( they don't even have to be railed if it's an apron with embedded sidings ) seem the sensible route for shunting either way.
Clayton Battery Electric shunters?
 

Nottingham59

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The battery figure is more interesting there, since if it's as good as a diesel for shunting
The diesel/battery curve for the class 93 is, I assume, for the locomotive running with both its 900kW diesel supplemented by the 400kW battery pack. I doubt if the 93s battery would give many minutes of shunting if it were working on its own. I think the 93's battery will only last long enough to accelerate a heavy loaded train to line speed, in conjunction with the diesel. Or maybe twice that. The battery is, I believe, big enough to absorb the whole kinetic energy of a heavy train at linespeed without using friction brakes.
 
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