Just for fun (Which lines 'if electrified' would reduce the most carbon ?)

[Halifaxlad]

Inspired by the ongoing thread on easy to win electrification schemes, which lines would reduce the most carbon if electrified ?

 

[Trainbike46]

Depending on how you ask the question, the answer will either be a very long line (more miles means more carbon reduced),

or, if you are looking for the largest carbon reduction per mile of electrification, it will be whatever route has the highest number of vehicle miles of diesel replaced by electric. so that means either the busiest non-electrified line, or a line where electrification would mean fewer diesel trains under the wires

 

[furnessvale]

Severn Valley, North Yorks Moors, East Lancs,.......I'll get my coat!

 

[Trainbike46]

More realistic answer probably are:

- GWML to Bristol (both routes), Oxford, Swansea & Penzance
- Chiltern & Snow hill lines (passenger)
- Felixstowe-Ipswich-Ely-Peterboroug-Leicester-Nuneaton(-Birmingham) (freight)

I'm definitely missing some other contenders here

 

[The Lad]

Carbon per mile of electrification? Windermere or one of the ports?

 

[mike57]

I will go for Transpennine north and Calder valley. Inter City, semi fast, local and freight, all diesel hauled, and plenty of hills so engines working flat out. I know its being worked on, but progress is glacial...

 

[zwk500]

Overall, possibly the XC line from Westerleigh to Doncaster/York. Portions are electrified, but Westerleigh-Bromsgrove, Longbridge-King's Norton Fasts, Camp Hill, Birmingham-Derby-Sheffield-Moorthorpe/Doncaster and Leeds-York still to be done. Regular packed Voyagers to be replaced with EMUS as well as allowing electric freight up the Lickey Bank.

 

[N1]

I will go for Transpennine north and Calder valley. Inter City, semi fast, local and freight, all diesel hauled, and plenty of hills so engines working flat out. I know its being worked on, but progress is glacial...

I agree, there was a reason they did the Woodhead route in the 50s and started building it in the 1930s.

Perhaps Windsor & Eaton Central Branch, 3tph shuttle on a branch just under 3 miles long, probably a good option on a per track km basis

 

[172007]

Severn Valley, North Yorks Moors, East Lancs,.......I'll get my coat!

Whilst for these railways I doubt issues with pollution would be an issue but I can see Vintage Trains at Tyseley, West Coast at Southal amongst others having to use Electric to preheat water prior to the engines leaving their depots though.

 

[popeter45]

Bristol to Bromsgrove would prob save a bunch

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Feb 2023 ==

allowing electric freight up the Lickey Bank.

yea even thou banking is rare now suprised they still use a 66 rather than a spare 92

 

[zwk500]

Bristol to Bromsgrove would prob save a bunch

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Feb 2023 ==


yea even thou banking is rare now suprised they still use a 66 rather than a spare 92

I doubt the power supply has enough in it to cope with a 92 banking from a standing start. There's also the minor operational issue of the only electrified route in or out of Bromsgrove being via New Street, so swapping the locos over when one needs to head back to Crewe would potentially be awkward.
I don't know what the current draw comparison is between a 92 and a pair of 90s but I bet a pair of 90s at a 60mph runup from south of Bromsgrove wouldn't be at the same risk of tripping out the power.

 

[popeter45]

I doubt the power supply has enough in it to cope with a 92 banking from a standing start. There's also the minor operational issue of the only electrified route in or out of Bromsgrove being via New Street, so swapping the locos over when one needs to head back to Crewe would potentially be awkward.
I don't know what the current draw comparison is between a 92 and a pair of 90s but I bet a pair of 90s at a 60mph runup from south of Bromsgrove wouldn't be at the same risk of tripping out the power.

actually wonder how well the new class 99 could work for this?, would solve the issue if needing electrification to depo, would suggest a 88 but only bo-bo and only 10 exist

 

[zwk500]

actually wonder how well the new class 99 could work for this?, would solve the issue if needing electrification to depo, would suggest a 88 but only bo-bo and only 10 exist

The depot issue is quite a small one tbf, you can easily time the paths at less busy times. The biggest problem with an only-electric loco is it wouldn't be able to pick up any work if nothing needed banking, whereas the 66s can go and help out at Stourbridge or take a train to Bristol etc. The 88s could work but for them being a small pool and DRS have better use for them. A 99 again is a strong possibility, although I'd suggest they'd be best employed heading the trains, getting a run up the bank (if they can pan up on the move).

 

[Bald Rick]

I doubt the power supply has enough in it to cope with a 92 banking from a standing start.

It could easily cope. A 92 on full beans draws 5MW. A pair of 800s is more. 2 x 90s would be 7.5MW.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

1) London Gateway - LTS
2) F2N/MN and the north - Felixstowe to Nuneaton (Midlands) and Birmingham
3) GWML to Bristol Temple Meads and Didcot to Oxford
4) Electric Spine
5) CLC route Manchester to Liverpool
6) Rolling program on completion of MML of Sheffield to Doncaster, then to Leeds then to York
7) Calder Valley
8) Chilterns entirety
9) Newbury to quarries and then onto Taunton

 

[Trainbike46]

1) London Gateway - LTS

It's actually absurd this one hasn't yet been done

2) F2N/MN and the north - Felixstowe to Nuneaton (Midlands) and Birmingham
3) GWML to Bristol Temple Meads and Didcot to Oxford
4) Electric Spine
5) CLC route Manchester to Liverpool
6) Rolling program on completion of MML of Sheffield to Doncaster, then to Leeds then to York
7) Calder Valley
8) Chilterns entirety

Would that include the snow hill lines?

9) Newbury to quarries and then onto Taunton

 

[Bald Rick]

On a ‘litres of diesel saved per route km of wiring’ basis, which must surely be the best measure, it would be hard to beat the Felixstowe branch, or perhaps a package of Didcot to Nuneaton (via Cov), Worcester (via SnowHill) and Lawley St, plus Reading West to Basingstoke.

 

[Trainbike46]

On a ‘litres of diesel saved per route km of wiring’ basis, which must surely be the best measure, it would be hard to beat the Felixstowe branch, or perhaps a package of Didcot to Nuneaton (via Cov), Worcester (via SnowHill) and Lawley St, plus Reading West to Basingstoke.

To make the most of Felixstow branch you would also want to do Ipswich-Nuneaton, right?

 

[Bald Rick]

To make the most of Felixstow branch you would also want to do Ipswich-Nuneaton, right?

Not on a litres of diesel saved per OLE km basis, no. It’s a long way and Haughley Jn to Nuneaton and would enable only a handful of services to swap to electric (those to Garston and Trafford Park booked that way )

 

[RobShipway]

I am surprised no one has included either Edinburgh to Aberdeen or Edinburgh to Inverness?

 

[Trainbike46]

I am surprised no one has included either Edinburgh to Aberdeen or Edinburgh to Inverness?

relatively low numbers of trains, so unlikely to be best per mile of electrification installed.

In addition, I was only considering lines that don't already have electrification planned, and Edinburgh-Aberdeen is part of the Scottish rolling electrification plan

 

[Bald Rick]

I am surprised no one has included either Edinburgh to Aberdeen or Edinburgh to Inverness?

Stirling to Inverness - 250km of route, probably about 330k of wiring (so a billion quid minimum) for about 30 trains a day north of Perth, most of which are 5 coaches or less. Plenty of better value lines out there.

 

[Meerkat]

On a ‘litres of diesel saved per route km of wiring’ basis, which must surely be the best measure, it would be hard to beat the Felixstowe branch, or perhaps a package of Didcot to Nuneaton (via Cov), Worcester (via SnowHill) and Lawley St, plus Reading West to Basingstoke.

Once you have done Felixstowe which would be the next best for electric freight - Ely to Peterborough, Ely to Nuneaton, or Nuneaton to Hams Hall and Lawley Street?

 

[Bald Rick]

Once you have done Felixstowe which would be the next best for electric freight - Ely to Peterborough, Ely to Nuneaton, or Nuneaton to Hams Hall and Lawley Street?

Nuneaton to Grand Junction. Oh and London Gateway (albeit not much would use electric there unless Nuneaton - Grand Junction was done).

 

[tbtc]

5) CLC route Manchester to Liverpool

If we are talking about conversion to our electric operation and not changing the entire timetable to reflect the new wires (?) then the CLC seems a top priority

It’s already wired at both Liverpool and Manchester

There’s a “self contained“ half hourly stopper that would be replaced by EMUs, without any service changes needing to happen

The fact that so many 150s continue to be used on the line means it’d have better improvements in air quality (than routes mainly run by modern units), e.g. the Stourbridge shuttle sees frequent self powered trains but the 139s aren’t belching out the same dark clouds that 1980s Sprinters do!

The presence of faster trains on the line (Hope Valley etc) means there’s significant benefits to speeding up the stoppers (rather than on a self contained branch where the local train isn’t getting in the way of anything else)

There are certainly some routes with more than just two DMUs/ hour on a certain stretch but these have a variety of destinations that would need attending to before pure EMU operation (e.g. plenty of DMUs on the Calder Valley but are you really going to wire Blackburn/ Chester/ Southport etc to get full benefits?)

There are other routes with two DMUs/ hour where electrification would need to tackle some big issues (e.g. the stopper from Sheffield to Doncaster is nominally every half hour, ignoring the trains running to Hull/ Cleethorpes that wouldn’t move over to pure EMU operation, but the complication of wiring Sheffield station for the sake of just two trains per hour puts that in the Too Difficult box)

There are a number of routes where a frequent “core” Would make a good basis for bi-modes (Snow Hill - Moor Street!) but my understanding of this thread was that it wasn’t about such compromises?

There are routes where electrification could free up a lot more DMUs if we rejigged the services (e.g. if you adjusted the Calder Valley services so that nothing ran east of Leeds or west of Manchester and so the “via Brighouse” was also the Blackpool service, and were prepared for the political fallout of Bradford losing trains to the ECML/ WCML and Brighouse losing Manchester trains)

So, start modest, do the CLC, but don’t forget Sheffield before the end of the decade!

 

[Trainbike46]

If we are talking about conversion to our electric operation and not changing the entire timetable to reflect the new wires (?) then the CLC seems a top priority

It’s already wired at both Liverpool and Manchester

There’s a “self contained“ half hourly stopper that would be replaced by EMUs, without any service changes needing to happen

The fact that so many 150s continue to be used on the line means it’d have better improvements in air quality (than routes mainly run by modern units), e.g. the Stourbridge shuttle sees frequent self powered trains but the 139s aren’t belching out the same dark clouds that 1980s Sprinters do!

The presence of faster trains on the line (Hope Valley etc) means there’s significant benefits to speeding up the stoppers (rather than on a self contained branch where the local train isn’t getting in the way of anything else)

There are certainly some routes with more than just two DMUs/ hour on a certain stretch but these have a variety of destinations that would need attending to before pure EMU operation (e.g. plenty of DMUs on the Calder Valley but are you really going to wire Blackburn/ Chester/ Southport etc to get full benefits?)

There are other routes with two DMUs/ hour where electrification would need to tackle some big issues (e.g. the stopper from Sheffield to Doncaster is nominally every half hour, ignoring the trains running to Hull/ Cleethorpes that wouldn’t move over to pure EMU operation, but the complication of wiring Sheffield station for the sake of just two trains per hour puts that in the Too Difficult box)

There are a number of routes where a frequent “core” Would make a good basis for bi-modes (Snow Hill - Moor Street!) but my understanding of this thread was that it wasn’t about such compromises?

There are routes where electrification could free up a lot more DMUs if we rejigged the services (e.g. if you adjusted the Calder Valley services so that nothing ran east of Leeds or west of Manchester and so the “via Brighouse” was also the Blackpool service, and were prepared for the political fallout of Bradford losing trains to the ECML/ WCML and Brighouse losing Manchester trains)

So, start modest, do the CLC, but don’t forget Sheffield before the end of the decade!

Other routes out of Sheffield could be done as a follow-on from MML wiring, when sheffield station has been done as part of the MML work

I don't think the thread starter mentioned anything about excluding bimodes, so I don't see why you would exclude such options

 

[Meerkat]

Nuneaton to Grand Junction. Oh and London Gateway (albeit not much would use electric there unless Nuneaton - Grand Junction was done).

Nuneaton to Grand Junction seems a great place to start. Two big freight sites with diversionary as a bonus, and various schemes that can then head off from it - Coventry, Kingsbury/Birch Coppice, the Sutton loop to Walsall, Leicester etc.

 

[Mzzzs]

Chiltern mainline along with all its offshoots such as snowhill lines.
This probably should be considered in the next 10 years.

edit
Feel like the Erewash valley line should be done along with the mml.

 

[cle]

First thought was Chiltern/Snow Hill - high frequency DMUs and proper peak increases.

Something like Reading West-Basingstoke or Felixstowe, Windermere etc which is a tight shuttle operation might be smarter per mile but they don't really flex much in the peaks, frequency-wise. In the before times, Chiltern easily had 12-14tph leaving Marylebone each peak. Snow Hill could be 6tph core (plus the odd Chiltern Kidd, and Moor St-Stratford/Leamingtons) - so it's a fair bit.

 

[LUYMun]

East-West Rail
North Downs Line
Basingstoke-Reading
Dudding Hill Line