The North of England - where does it start?

[Lost property]

The North is a mythical land of uncharted areas and displayed accordingly on Motorway o'head gantries as such. The area does not have a Tube system, which shows how uncivilised it is hence civilisation ends at Amersham...as everybody knows !

Many years, well 70's, ago, when stood on the bomb site that Harwich station resembled then, there were three boat trains all departing within a few mins of each other. The, barely audible, announcement on a tape which was, in technical terms, knackered, spoken by a lady whose voice was perfect for a Harry Enfield sketch, would announce "the farst two twains are for...Lahndon..the last twain is for....the North !!" with great emphasis on North..... peasants, know your place !

Actually, when it comes to food as a definition, then clearly anywhere that doesn't sell Holland's steak and kidney puddings / meat and potato pies, well any Hollands products really, is, by definition not part of the North.

As for the Pret comparison, last week, I had the brief, thankfully, misfortune to be corralled on the shopping mall formerly known as New Street Station....needed a snack so had a browse around...went into Starbucks, took one look at the prices, and exited...had a look at Pret and found an egg mayo sandwich...considerably cheaper.

 

[Magdalia]

Which is rubbish because the Midlands exists

Yes the Midlands exists, but in a north south duality it is part of the north not the south, whether looked at from an economic, cultural or geographic perspective.

Another analysis is historical, going back to the 4 Kingdoms established after the fall of the Roman Empire, these being Northumbria, Mercia, East Anglia and Wessex. Ian Hislop (editor of Private Eye and on TV's Have I Got News For You) did an interesting radio series on these a few years ago. This is a rough approximation of it:

Draw an imaginary diagonal line south east from the Dee estuary pivoting northeast at Stoke to stop at Lincoln. Chester and Crewe are Northern, Stoke isn't. Chesterfield and Worksop are northern, Mansfield and Lincoln aren't.

Then draw a line from the Severn Estuary at Gloucester to Peterborough, and one from Lincoln to Peterborough to Chelmsford. Anything below the first line is southern anything to the right of the Lincoln - Chelmsford line is Eastern. The gap in the middle is the Midlands. Cheltenham and Northampton are Midlands, Milton Keynes and Oxford are southern.

 

[Cross City]

but in a north south duality

Which doesn't exist

 

[AlterEgo]

Which doesn't exist

Agreed. North and south isn’t a duality. It’s a spectrum. Northumberland is much more northern than Sheffield both in actual geography and culture. The two places aren’t alike. Same goes with Plymouth and London. The real sticker is how far somewhere is from London by road.

 

[DarloRich]

The true north is the north east. Any other parts of "the north" are merely secondary.

BTW - what brought this ancient thread back to life?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

BTW - what brought this ancient thread back to life?

Indeed. Six-and-a-half-year gap between post #199 and post #200, it would appear.

Is that a forum record?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

BTW - what brought this ancient thread back to life?

I think I saw a fresh thread about the North and then I didn't, so I'm guessing the mods merged the two and re-opened this one?

 

[Gloster]

I don’t know if it has appeared earlier in the thread, but just beyond Hatfield. (For those not old enough, Hatfield and the North was an experimental rock band fifty years ago that took its name from road signs on the A1 leaving London.)

 

[DarloRich]

I think I saw a fresh thread about the North and then I didn't, so I'm guessing the mods merged the two and re-opened this one?

sensible people - this is clearly the premier thread on this subject

I would suggest Durham as the capital of the North. York is too far south and could easily be captured by southern forces marching north and Newcastle is too divisive.

Other locations are not suitable because i don't like them

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I would suggest Durham as the capital of the North.

Other locations are not suitable because i don't like them

Not even the regional metropolis that is Darlington?!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I was at a football match in Shrewsbury recently at which the local team were accused by the away fans, whom I was among, of being, as among other things, dirty and northern. Never having thought of Shrewsbury as being "northern" I found this odd, but this analysis seems to confirm that the description might be considered to be not entirely without legitimacy

It's a classic example of "Terrace wit" there... for example when Huddersfield play Barnsley the former will sing about the latter being soft Southern "jessies", and similarly Barrow fans will call Carlisle "dirty Northern *******s". It wouldn't surprise me to hear that the fans of Ross County (based in Dingwall) and Inverness Caledonian Thistle engage in similar tongue-in-cheek banter.

 

[W-on-Sea]

As local perceptions go, Worcester is Midlands, but Cheltenham is definitely West Country, even if it considers itself more sophisticated than anywhere else with that identity

 

[DarloRich]

Not even the regional metropolis that is Darlington?!

i wanted to try and be inclusive!

 

[Statto]

For me North of England is from Cheshire, Greater Manchester, South Yorkshire, & North of the Humber, to the Scottish border.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

For me North of England is from Cheshire, Greater Manchester, South Yorkshire, & North of the Humber, to the Scottish border.

I'd probably go along with that .

 

[Cross City]

As local perceptions go, Worcester is Midlands, but Cheltenham is definitely West Country, even if it considers itself more sophisticated than anywhere else with that identity

Disagree, I lived in Birmingham but worked in Cheltenham for a couple of years, and it's certainly more Midlands than it is West Country. Much more in Common with places like Worcester and Stratford U Avon than there is to Bristol and Bath.

I'd put the border at Gloucester.

 

[ainsworth74]

BTW - what brought this ancient thread back to life?

I think I saw a fresh thread about the North and then I didn't, so I'm guessing the mods merged the two and re-opened this one?

RailUK Bonus Point for @Peter Mugridge for getting the correct answer!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

RailUK Bonus Point for @Peter Mugridge for getting the correct answer!

 

[Pete_uk]

North of Birmingham is where 'the north' starts

 

[Andyh82]

,

For me North of England is from Cheshire, Greater Manchester, South Yorkshire, & North of the Humber, to the Scottish border.

I’d also include the likes of Chesterfield, Mansfield, Scunthorpe, Grimsby

 

[Purple Train]

For me it's a sliding scale that starts roughly around the Northampton area and transitions into full northern-ness by Whitby. With a little spot of extra full northern-ness in Hull, obviously

 

[61653 HTAFC]

North of Birmingham is where 'the north' starts

I'd say it's at Tinsley Viaduct on the M1.

 

[unlevel42]

Meersbrook, now a suburb Sheffield (was much closer to the Derbyshire border) marked the historic boundaries of the kingdoms of the North and Midlands. It was at the border (Dore station?) that the southern King Ecgberht received the submission of the Northumbrian king thus briefly being the 3-in-1 King(Wessex Mercia Northumberland). Sheffield/Rotherham/Doncaster working class accents are quite different to those of Chesterfield/Mansfield/Worksop/Retford/Lincoln.

 

[WatcherZero]

Lincoln the city certainly isnt anywhere near the North even though northern parts of the county are. I would do it like this give or take a dozen km (had to draw the line slightly north so you could read the place names).
Boston Northern? No
Skegness Northern? Yes
Gainsborough? No
Worksop? Yes
Chesterfield? Borderline with Midlands
Bakewell? No
Congleton? Yes
Crewe? Boderline with Midlands
Wrexham despite being in Wales? Yes
Anywhere else in Wales? No

 

[Cross City]

Lincoln the city certainly isnt anywhere near the North even though northern parts of the county are. I would do it like this give or take a dozen km (had to draw the line slightly north so you could read the place names).
Boston Northern? No
Skegness Northern? Yes
Gainsborough? No
Worksop? Yes
Chesterfield? Borderline with Midlands
Bakewell? No
Congleton? Yes
Crewe? Boderline with Midlands
Wrexham despite being in Wales? Yes
Anywhere else in Wales? No
View attachment 129034

I'd braodly agree with this. Though I think the East of England deserves it's own category. I don't think Skegness or Boston are Northern, and they're not Midlands either (but Lincoln is). They have much more in common with Norfolk.

I reckon you could call most of North Wales 'Northern' until you hit the Welsh speaking parts past Llandudno. They're practically Scoucers-Lite™ round there.

 

[Magdalia]

Lincolnshire was historically in three parts which are literally called Parts.

The Parts of Holland is Spalding and Boston plus surrounding areas. Geographically, culturally and economically it is part of the Fens, and is definitely East/South.

The Parts of Kesteven is Stamford, Bourne, Grantham and Sleaford plus surrounding areas. Geographically Kesteven is also East/South, but culturally/economically I'm less sure.

The parts of Lindsey is the northern half of Lincolnshire and is Midlands/North.

 

[Lost property]

I'd braodly agree with this. Though I think the East of England deserves it's own category. I don't think Skegness or Boston are Northern, and they're not Midlands either (but Lincoln is). They have much more in common with Norfolk.

I reckon you could call most of North Wales 'Northern' until you hit the Welsh speaking parts past Llandudno. They're practically Scoucers-Lite™ round there.

It certainly does...however, the terms available to describe the bleak, barren, windswept sub zero steppes and tundra can't really be printed on here.

 

[Howardh]

Lincoln the city certainly isnt anywhere near the North even though northern parts of the county are. I would do it like this give or take a dozen km (had to draw the line slightly north so you could read the place names).
Boston Northern? No
Skegness Northern? Yes
Gainsborough? No
Worksop? Yes
Chesterfield? Borderline with Midlands
Bakewell? No
Congleton? Yes
Crewe? Boderline with Midlands
Wrexham despite being in Wales? Yes
Anywhere else in Wales? No
View attachment 129034

I'll go along with that except put Crewe and Chesterfield in the north. Poor old Derbyshire's half north, half midlands! in the good old days, North west Tonight used to give us Derbyshire's cricket scores, basically because the NW parts of Derbys were just about in the NW TV region. As for Crewe, if they were on TV then Granada would cover it, Stoke and Port Vale would be covered by ATV/Central. But Crewe rarely got on TV!!

 

[Cross City]

I'll go along with that except put Crewe and Chesterfield in the north. Poor old Derbyshire's half north, half midlands! in the good old days, North west Tonight used to give us Derbyshire's cricket scores, basically because the NW parts of Derbys were just about in the NW TV region. As for Crewe, if they were on TV then Granada would cover it, Stoke and Port Vale would be covered by ATV/Central. But Crewe rarely got on TV!!

Chesterfield is northern, it's practically a Sheffield suburb. Crewe I'd agree with but it's close. Things get blurry in north Derbyshire, in Notts around Worksop and in north Cheshire.

 

[londonteacher]

As someone who currently lives in Kent, anything north of the Thames could be classed as north of England for me!