The North of England - where does it start?

[roversfan2001]

Apart from our Wembley playoff victory...

You know that age old saying, tenth time lucky?

 

[sprinterguy]

And one of my posh southern colleagues from Harpenden told me she'd once been to Morrisons but didn't like it. "You can tell it's a northern company", she said, "the deli counter is full of meat pies."

The idea of a deli counter full of anything other than meat pies worries me greatly. hock: Being from the north I'm quite fond of Morrisons as far as supermarkets go, although I know a couple of people who've worked for them who don't feel the same way.
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I have another possible definition: Can you get a stotty in the Greggs? If no = south.

Aye, hear hear!

 

[WestCoast]

And the "do more people shop at Waitrose or Morrisons" test...

I'm a northerner living in the south, and my mother was horrified when she came to visit and saw Waitrose products in the fridge. She thought I had spent a fortune on these regional delicacies as a special treat because she was visiting.

Waitrose is overrated, give me Booths for a posh meat pie anyday

 

[Yew]

I'd potentially say there is scope to include Mansfield and the North Notts coalfields as 'Northern' Due to the number of Yorkshire miners who came down in the first half of the 20th century.

 

[AM9]

To me, the north of England would stretch from the area bounded by CH, CW, WA, SK (the Cheshire bits), low end of S (the bits in Yorkshire), and the low end of DN (the bits in Yorkshire) postcode areas up to CA and NE.

I am aware that Berwick upon Tweed is TD, which is a Scotland postcode, but bear in mind that Berwick upon Tweed has changed hands several times between England and Scotland throughout its history.

My original neck of the woods of the West Midlands I define as the low end of SY (the bits in England), TF, WV, ST, WS, B, CV, DY, WR, and HR.

The East Midlands I define as DE (I think the old town hall in Burton on Trent was on the Derbyshire side of the Trent, hence the DE allocation rather than a WS, ST, or a high B. Tamworth straddled both Warwickshire and Staffordshire, but the town hall was on the Warwickshire side, hence the allocation of a high B. Perhaps somebody local could confirm if that was the case or not?), LE, NG, high end of S (the bits in Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire), and the high end of SK (the bits in Derbyshire). At a stretch, I would also include LN, as it is east of Nottingham.

I perceive GL, NN, OX, MK, and PE (except Kings Lynn, Boston, and Skegness) as being South Midlands. Of note, Peterborough was once part of Northamptonshire until 1974, when it got moved into Cambridgeshire.

East of England and Anglia to me is CB, NR, IP, CO, CM, SS, RM, and IG.

West of England and Cornwall to me is BS, SN, BA, TA, EX, TQ, PL, and TR. At a stretch, I would also include Gibraltar as it is part of South West Region in European Parliament elections until the day the residents would like it to either be totally independent, or returned to Spain (that is for a different thread).

The Home Counties (another artificial political invention) to me is AL, LU, HP, WD, SL, RG, and EN.

London is obviously the compass point postcodes.

Historic Middlesex is HA, UB, and TW.

Wessex is BH, DT, SP, SO, and PO.

The South of England to me is KT, SM, CR, RH, GU, BN, TN, ME, CT, DA, and BR.

Any thoughts on the above perceptions?

I think that is a fair assesment. Just a couple of comments:

Given that PO covers Chichester and Bognor, yet doesn't even reach the Hamble, it feels more like the South of England.
In the home counties, why not SG, CM and even SS?

 

[DarloRich]

i don't even know what all those abbreviations mean!

South of the Tees = Cockney. Solved.

 

[Butts]

i don't even know what all those abbreviations mean!

South of the Tees = Cockney. Solved.

North of the Tees = Barbarians who live in Caves until you get to the Border- we live in the open

 

[AM9]

i don't even know what all those abbreviations mean!

South of the Tees = Cockney. Solved.

Just enter the two letters followed by postcode into Google and you will get a map of the area.

 

[fergusjbend]

Perceptions change with time. In his semi-autobiographical book 'Of Human Bondage', Somerset Maugham described his youth in Whitstable, Kent (called Blackstable in the book) and referred to it as an East Anglian fishing village. I don't think anyone today would include North Kent in East Anglia!

As for the North-South divide, I can definitively state that it is the old border between Lancashire and Cheshire. Salford, Bolton, Rochdale and Manchester are all up north, but Stockport, Altrincham and (especially) Wilmslow are all down south. As for the border farther east between Yorkshire and Derbyshire - who cares anyway?

Aye oop!

 

[AM9]

Perceptions change with time. In his semi-autobiographical book 'Of Human Bondage', Somerset Maugham described his youth in Whitstable, Kent (called Blackstable in the book) and referred to it as an East Anglian fishing village. I don't think anyone today would include North Kent in East Anglia!

As for the North-South divide, I can definitively state that it is the old border between Lancashire and Cheshire. Salford, Bolton, Rochdale and Manchester are all up north, but Stockport, Altrincham and (especially) Wilmslow are all down south. As for the border farther east between Yorkshire and Derbyshire - who cares anyway?

Aye oop!

Surely, up North and down South are just expressions of mind. We have the most southerly northern ex mill-town just 12 miles north, i.e. Luton. Similarly, Cheshire has a few locationally-challenged home counties towns.

 

[DelayRepay]

You know you're in the south when you don't get a proper head on your pint.

 

[AM9]

You know you're in the south when you don't get a proper head on your pint.

You mean that it's all beer with no gas-filled bubbles.

 

[Gutfright]

The simplest way to tell if your town or city is in the North is to divide the number of Greggs bakeries it has by the population. If your location has more than 2.7 Greggs outlets per 100,000 people it is officially in the North.

Newcastle has 10.8 Greggs per 100,000 people.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The simplest way to tell if your town or city is in the North is to divide the number of Greggs bakeries it has by the population. If your location has more than 2.7 Greggs outlets per 100,000 people it is officially in the North.

Newcastle has 10.8 Greggs per 100,000 people.

The South has a similar indicator, but that is the Pret á Manger per Capita Index!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I tend to look at a very old map that I have in my archives, showing the Hundreds and the Wapentakes when evaluating such matters.

 

[DelayRepay]

The South has a similar indicator, but that is the Pret á Manger per Capita Index!

Sheffield used to have a Pret (in Meadowhall), but it closed down as the good people of South Yorkshire would not tolerate paying over a fiver for a cheese sandwich and a cup of coffee. I do believe Sheffield is the only city where Pret has closed down...

 

[Haydn1971]

I live and grew up in the part of Sheffield that was once in Derbyshire, having worked in Hull, Leeds and Calderdale, I've nearly always been described as a southerner, despite my almost Sheffieldish accent

 

[Busaholic]

Sheffield used to have a Pret (in Meadowhall), but it closed down as the good people of South Yorkshire would not tolerate paying over a fiver for a cheese sandwich and a cup of coffee. I do believe Sheffield is the only city where Pret has closed down...

I know of a London branch that closed.

 

[317 forever]

Buxton and Chesterfield are northern because they are within the 'gravitational field' of Manchester / Sheffield; Ashbourne and Belper aren't because they are within Derby's. IMHO

Does this classification make Bakewell north or south?

He's not saying that.
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Indeed. As for Wales being in the North, that's just wrong. Cardiff is closer to Bristol than Cheshire, let alone Manchester.

I consider Wales to be a western England peninsula, after most areas voted Leave.

As we've said, Sheffield is in Yorkshire.

Sheffield has a similar feel to the West Midlands.

To me, the north of England would stretch from the area bounded by CH, CW, WA, SK (the Cheshire bits), low end of S (the bits in Yorkshire), and the low end of DN (the bits in Yorkshire) postcode areas up to CA and NE.

I am aware that Berwick upon Tweed is TD, which is a Scotland postcode, but bear in mind that Berwick upon Tweed has changed hands several times between England and Scotland throughout its history.

My original neck of the woods of the West Midlands I define as the low end of SY (the bits in England), TF, WV, ST, WS, B, CV, DY, WR, and HR.

The East Midlands I define as DE (I think the old town hall in Burton on Trent was on the Derbyshire side of the Trent, hence the DE allocation rather than a WS, ST, or a high B. Tamworth straddled both Warwickshire and Staffordshire, but the town hall was on the Warwickshire side, hence the allocation of a high B. Perhaps somebody local could confirm if that was the case or not?), LE, NG, high end of S (the bits in Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire), and the high end of SK (the bits in Derbyshire). At a stretch, I would also include LN, as it is east of Nottingham.

I perceive GL, NN, OX, MK, and PE (except Kings Lynn, Boston, and Skegness) as being South Midlands. Of note, Peterborough was once part of Northamptonshire until 1974, when it got moved into Cambridgeshire.

East of England and Anglia to me is CB, NR, IP, CO, CM, SS, RM, and IG.

West of England and Cornwall to me is BS, SN, BA, TA, EX, TQ, PL, and TR. At a stretch, I would also include Gibraltar as it is part of South West Region in European Parliament elections until the day the residents would like it to either be totally independent, or returned to Spain (that is for a different thread).

The Home Counties (another artificial political invention) to me is AL, LU, HP, WD, SL, RG, and EN.

London is obviously the compass point postcodes.

Historic Middlesex is HA, UB, and TW.

Wessex is BH, DT, SP, SO, and PO.

The South of England to me is KT, SM, CR, RH, GU, BN, TN, ME, CT, DA, and BR.

Any thoughts on the above perceptions?

I see you don't believe in Greater London? I'd like Greater London to lose postcodes RM and maybe IG to Essex, UX to Berkshire, SM to Surrey and DA to Kent. I am happy for postcodes EN, HA, TW, KT & BR to remain in Greater London as they voted to remain in the EU along with all traditional London city postal areas.

Sheffield used to have a Pret (in Meadowhall), but it closed down as the good people of South Yorkshire would not tolerate paying over a fiver for a cheese sandwich and a cup of coffee. I do believe Sheffield is the only city where Pret has closed down...

This has still made Sheffield the largest city without a Pret in the city centre.

I know of a London branch that closed.

I think an early one in Hampstead closed down.

 

[InkyScrolls]

For me, 'the North' refers to the seven historic counties (which still exist for 'traditional purposes', though not for administration) of Yorkshire, Cheshire, Lancashire, Cumberland, Westmorland, Northumberland and Co. Durham (map available at the link). So Chester, Crewe and Sheffield are in, but Derby, Grimsby and Scunthorpe are not.

 

[yorkie]

Where would you put 'the North'? What counties would you include? What cities and towns mark the southern border (as fuzzy or well-defined as you may feel that to be)?

As others have said on this forum a few times before, a good place to start is:

1:58
In 2007, a proper academic study was carried out by Professor Danny Dorling.

2:03
Taking a range of cultural and economic factors into account.

2:05
This is the line he came up with.

2:07
JAY: What's noteworthy is that the line goes up at an angle, which puts Leicester which is further north than Coventry in the south

2:13
And Coventry, which is further south than Leicester in the north, and vice versa.

2:16
MARK: And we can tell that Professor Dorling did his research properly, because the line is incredibly squiggly indeed.

The PDF can be found here:
https://www.dannydorling.org/wp-content/files/dannydorling_publication_id2881.pdf

 

[W-on-Sea]

I was at a football match in Shrewsbury recently at which the local team were accused by the away fans, whom I was among, of being, as among other things, dirty and northern. Never having thought of Shrewsbury as being "northern" I found this odd, but this analysis seems to confirm that the description might be considered to be not entirely without legitimacy

 

[route101]

I was at a football match in Shrewsbury recently at which the local team were accused by the away fans, whom I was among, of being, as among other things, dirty and northern. Never having thought of Shrewsbury as being "northern" I found this odd, but this analysis seems to confirm that the description might be considered to be not entirely without legitimacy

Shrewsbury and Lincoln are kind of in the no mans land of North/South.

 

[InkyScrolls]

Shrewsbury and Lincoln are kind of in the no mans land of North/South.

Midlands! Certainly not 'Northern'.

 

[OhNoAPacer]

The simplest way to tell if your town or city is in the North is to divide the number of Greggs bakeries it has by the population. If your location has more than 2.7 Greggs outlets per 100,000 people it is officially in the North.

Newcastle has 10.8 Greggs per 100,000 people.

Whitehaven, population approx 24000 has 3 Greggs* making 12.5 per 100,000.
Egremont, population approx 8000 has 1 Greg's also giving 12.5 per 100,000.

*you can see the Market Place branch from the King Street branch.

 

[plugwash]

Crewe and stock to mind as possible boundary, where the commuter trains from Birmingham meet the commuter trains from Manchester.

 

[Cross City]

My perception as a Brummie:

Draw an imaginary diagonal line south east from the Dee estuary pivoting northeast at Stoke to stop at Lincoln. Chester and Crewe are Northern, Stoke isn't. Chesterfield and Worksop are northern, Mansfield and Lincoln aren't.

Then draw a line from the Severn Estuary at Gloucester to Peterborough, and one from Lincoln to Peterborough to Chelmsford. Anything below the first line is southern anything to the right of the Lincoln - Chelmsford line is Eastern. The gap in the middle is the Midlands. Cheltenham and Northampton are Midlands, Milton Keynes and Oxford are southern.

Anything south of Gloucester and west of a line between Oxford and Southampton is in the South West.

Roughly something like this.

 

[Magdalia]

The Dorling analysis is economic and cultural.

A similar analysis can be done geographically using geology, topography and drainage. Here the north south divide is the ridge of hills running south west to north east through the Cotswolds, the Northamptonshire ironstone hills and the Lincolnshire Wolds. River drainage into the Thames basin and the Wash is southern, drainage into the Severn and Humber estuaries is northern.

This definition can be easily appreciated in transport infrastructure. On the main south to north railways this puts the boundary at Harbury cutting, Kilsby Tunnel, Kibworth summit and Peascliffe Tunnel.

On the roads I have long had a joke that Watford Gap and Gonerby Moor services (on the M1 and A1 respectively) are designed for easy conversion into border posts.

A simple approximation of both Dorling's analysis and the geographical analysis is to draw a straight line from Gloucester to Grimsby.

 

[Cross City]

A simple approximation of both Dorling's analysis and the geographical analysis is to draw a straight line from Gloucester to Grimsby.

Which is rubbish because the Midlands exists

 

[gordonthemoron]

Starts at the Scotland border, ends at the Tyne