London Buses Discussion

[Snow1964]

Not a surprise, though you'd assume that battery buses elsewhere in Europe would face much lower winter temperatures?

Yes, but they were probably specified with bigger batteries to allow use during colder winter days. European Operators also tend to leave them plugged in to heat the buses before service, and fit double glazing to better insulate buses.

From what I understand, some London Operators (particularly Abellio) have tried to save money on chargers, so they have to unplug buses in middle of the night, as each charger is doing two buses each night. Not then so easy to pre-heat a bus before it leaves depot, which means extra load on batteries.

TfL sets lots of specs for its buses, but I don't think fuel tank size or electric range is one of them. I suspect some Operators chose buses with batteries that they thought were sufficient for normal duty cycles, but didn't allow sufficient margin for cold days when lots of electric heating of the bus is needed.

However it does explain why some routes were seeing diesel or hybrid buses in the evening instead of their booked electric buses.

 

[Mikey C]

Yes, but they were probably specified with bigger batteries to allow use during colder winter days. European Operators also tend to leave them plugged in to heat the buses before service, and fit double glazing to better insulate buses.

From what I understand, some London Operators (particularly Abellio) have tried to save money on chargers, so they have to unplug buses in middle of the night, as each charger is doing two buses each night. Not then so easy to pre-heat a bus before it leaves depot, which means extra load on batteries.

TfL sets lots of specs for its buses, but I don't think fuel tank size or electric range is one of them. I suspect some Operators chose buses with batteries that they thought were sufficient for normal duty cycles, but didn't allow sufficient margin for cold days when lots of electric heating of the bus is needed.

However it does explain why some routes were seeing diesel or hybrid buses in the evening instead of their booked electric buses.

With its resources and massive budget when compared to the rest of the country, London has often been a guineapig for the British bus market. Until you have all year round experience, you can never be entirely whether you've exactly got it right, as shown by early low floor buses and hybrids in London having issues resolved in later iterations.

With electric buses, from your comment above getting the garage infrastructure right is as big an issue as speccing the buses right!

 

[Dstock7080]

info to Staff:

The New Routemaster (NRM) Refurbishment Programme has reached its 200th refurbishment - signalling 20% of completed NRM’s.

The midlife interior and exterior refurbishment ensures that the NRM’s are kept on the road for as long as possible meaning that they’re less likely to be taken out of service for reactive maintenance.
Customer experience and safety is also greatly improved - not to mention the improved comfort and safety for our drivers with a re-upholstered driver seat, new leather covering and fully sealed cab door screens to improve driver safety.
By the end of March 2023, we’re hoping to achieve 272 refurbishments and by April 2024 the aim is for 600 completed refurbishments.

 

[FOH]

info to Staff:

Interesting. Is there any news as to how the fully electric trial which started in November has gone at all?

 

[Busoccultation]

Interesting. Is there any news as to how the fully electric trial which started in November has gone at all?

Apart from a few out of service runs along the 390 route from a few months ago, the electric convert LT11 still isn't being used in normal service unless it has gone somewhere for further testing related developments.

 

[MotCO]

Route One reports that Reading Buses has ordered 7 new Enviro400s for their Green Line services to London. This would imply that the routes are making money for them after Arriva(?) First withdrew, presumably because they could not make them pay.

Reading Buses orders seven Enviro400s for Green Line - routeone

Reading Buses has ordered seven Alexander Dennis Enviro400 City models for its Green Line 702 and 703 services to London and Heathrow Airport.

www.route-one.net

Reading Buses has ordered seven Alexander Dennis Enviro400 City models for its Green Line 702 and 703 services between Legoland, Windsor and London, and Bracknell, Windsor and Heathrow Airport, respectively.


Then will be the first 11.5m Enviro400s built with the City style of bodywork. Among the municipal operator’s specification is a glazed staircase, skylights, air chill equipment, wood effect flooring, high backed seats with USB and wireless charging, social seating areas and LED mood lighting.


Five of the buses will have space for two wheelchair users. The others will come with an additional luggage rack for airport journeys. All will seat 76 and supplant existing Enviro400s on both Green Line services.


Speaking about the deal, Reading Buses Chief Executive Officer Robert Williams says: “We are delighted to be placing this order with Alexander Dennis after a full tendering exercise showed the best specification for our customers alongside the best value for money, 24-hour support and the lowest carbon impact.


“We anticipate this order setting a trend for the future as bus patronage continues to recover following the pandemic, and we look forward to deploying the buses onto our high-profile Green Line services.”


Adds Alexander Dennis Regional Sales Manager Mark Taylor: “We are pleased to have secured this prestigious order from Reading Buses as the award-winning operator upgrades its iconic Green Line services.


“Our experience in tailoring vehicles to operators’ requirements means that these will set new standards, with a bespoke specification that will enhance passengers’ journeys to and from London and Heathrow Airport. The Reading Buses team will be fully supported around the clock by our comprehensive AD24 aftermarket service.”

Edit - to correct previous operator

 

[duncombec]

Route One reports that Reading Buses has ordered 7 new Enviro400s for their Green Line services to London. This would imply that the routes are making money for them after Arriva(?) withdrew, presumably because they could not make them pay.

The 702 was previous a First Berkshire operation.

According to a note from Robert Williams (reading MD) on another newsgroup, they will feature a 'refreshed livery'.

 

[MotCO]

The 702 was previous a First Berkshire operation.

According to a note from Robert Williams (reading MD) on another newsgroup, they will feature a 'refreshed livery'.

Yes, I couldn't remember who previously operated the service - thanks for the correction.

 

[FOH]

Apart from a few out of service runs along the 390 route from a few months ago, the electric convert LT11 still isn't being used in normal service unless it has gone somewhere for further testing related developments.

Ah shame to hear that. Thanks for the info!

 

[Silver Cobra]

The long-running dispute at Abellio's London bus operations has now finally come to an end after drivers accepted a "richly deserved" pay offer.

London bus strikes: Abellio drivers accept pay rise

Abellio London workers have been holding a series of strikes over recent months.

www.bbc.co.uk

A long-running dispute involving more than 1,800 bus drivers in London has come to an end after workers accepted a "richly deserved" pay offer.
Members of Unite employed by Abellio have staged a series of walkouts in recent months, disrupting journeys in south and west London.
Unite said an offer had been accepted that would see drivers with over two years' service being paid £18 an hour.
Abellio London said it was "delighted" the offer had been accepted.

The pay rise equates to an increase of 18% on the basic rate, while the agreement also includes all rates being raised, including overtime and rest-day working.
Unite general secretary Sharon Graham called it an "important pay victory".
"Workers have stood firm and with the support of their union, Unite, they have secured a richly deserved pay increase," she added.
A spokesperson for Abellio London said the "substantial pay rise" equated to an increase of about £100 a week and made the firm "one of the highest-paying operators in London".
"It was disappointing that strikes unnecessarily continued into February despite this fantastic offer being made at the beginning of the year," they added.

A very good result for the drivers, it has to be said.

 

[MotCO]

The long-running dispute at Abellio's London bus operations has now finally come to an end after drivers accepted a "richly deserved" pay offer.

London bus strikes: Abellio drivers accept pay rise

Abellio London workers have been holding a series of strikes over recent months.

www.bbc.co.uk

A very good result for the drivers, it has to be said.

If the increase is £100 per week, this will add considerably to Abellio's costs. How is this affordable, or will the TfL contracts be renegotiated or handed back?

 

[Snow1964]

If the increase is £100 per week, this will add considerably to Abellio's costs. How is this affordable, or will the TfL contracts be renegotiated or handed back?

TfL contracts have an annual escalator for inflation etc, that adjusts the contract value each year. From memory first year is per tender bid. I suspect it will not be based on paying 18% so Abellio will have to swallow the excess.

I think contracts can be handed back after 3 years (for the 5 year contracts), it might be after 4 or 5 years for new fixed 7 year contracts. I know RATP have done it with couple of routes that they inherited with Tower Transit takeover (routes 23 and C3) as it was in the December tender update on TfL website (routes were added as additional tranches 837A and 846A respectively). Dec update is no longer online as now replaced by a Feb tender update.

Tendering Programme Update
6th February 2023
The following changes will be made to the tendering programme:
Tranche 865: Routes W12, W13 & W14 moved to new Tranche 865A. Tranche 868: Moved to 2024/25 Tendering Programme as Tranche 905A. Tranche 873: Route X26 moved to new Tranche 873A.
Tranche 879: Route P4 moved to new Tranche 879A.
In addition, following agreement of a two – year contract extension for route 533, Tranche 887 will be cancelled.

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/uploads/forms/tender-programme-update-february-2023.pdf

Both routes 23 and C3 are currently electric buses, of course RATP might just rebid at much higher price and hope no one else has spare electric buses available at relatively short notice. The only other option would be if TfL sanction changing from zero emission until more electric buses can be obtained. I cannot imagine RATP would dump them on the market to make it easy for another Operator.

 

[MotCO]

TfL contracts have an annual escalator for inflation etc, that adjusts the contract value each year.

If it is based on RPI, then it could be at least 10%, which would help, but obviously it is not as much as 18%. It also depends on whether it is a one year or two year deal.

 

[JonathanH]

The long-running dispute at Abellio's London bus operations has now finally come to an end after drivers accepted a "richly deserved" pay offer.

A very good result for the drivers, it has to be said.

Evidence that well targeted strikes work?

 

[Thirteen]

Evidence that well targeted strikes work?

I find it interesting that the offer by Abelio was made in January but I guess Unite needed more in order to accept it such as restating a union rep and other business.

 

[90sWereBetter]

Big surprise in the latest tender results - RATP have lost the 9/N9 to Metroline from early 2024. That route's been with RATP and its predecessors for over 30 years.

 

[MotCO]

Big surprise in the latest tender results - RATP have lost the 9/N9 to Metroline from early 2024. That route's been with RATP and its predecessors for over 30 years.

It is perhaps surprising that a route operated by buses leased from TfL has changed hands. It would either be on the basis of performance or cost. I would imagine that the main variable costs would be staff costs or fuel, which, unless they are offering substantially lower wages, or have secured a discount on fuel deliveries, would be similar between both companies. Maybe it is the contribution to overheads (cost of depot, backroom activities) which is the difference.

 

[Snow1964]

It is perhaps surprising that a route operated by buses leased from TfL has changed hands. It would either be on the basis of performance or cost. I would imagine that the main variable costs would be staff costs or fuel, which, unless they are offering substantially lower wages, or have secured a discount on fuel deliveries, would be similar between both companies. Maybe it is the contribution to overheads (cost of depot, backroom activities) which is the difference.

I do wonder if maintenance costs are also becoming high risk, route 9 was one of the first ones to convert, so it's buses are already about 10 years old.

Like a number of recent new routemaster tender awards, it is a fixed 5 years, (award is January 2024-2029), I wouldn't be surprised if they are likely to be a pain to maintain by 2028-29 and parts for its hybrid system difficult to get.

 

[chopperman21]

It is perhaps surprising that a route operated by buses leased from TfL has changed hands. It would either be on the basis of performance or cost. I would imagine that the main variable costs would be staff costs or fuel, which, unless they are offering substantially lower wages, or have secured a discount on fuel deliveries, would be similar between both companies. Maybe it is the contribution to overheads (cost of depot, backroom activities) which is the difference.

This is not the first route to change hands where the (NRM) buses have moved with the route. Lets not forget the troubles that RATP have had for a number of months, have they started to put more realistic costs in place now? I am not sure we can say its TfL punishing them either, unless Abellio are next on the list. The other thing to bare in mind is, have Metroline found some greater efficiencies over RATP, such as remote sign on etc?

I do wonder if maintenance costs are also becoming high risk, route 9 was one of the first ones to convert, so it's buses are already about 10 years old.

Like a number of recent new routemaster tender awards, it is a fixed 5 years, (award is January 2024-2029), I wouldn't be surprised if they are likely to be a pain to maintain by 2028-29 and parts for its hybrid system difficult to get.

I am not sure it has much to do with maintenance, just simply the buses would exceed the permitted age if they had a 7 year contract. Again this is not the first contract to only be given a 5 year term based on vehicle age.

 

[Snow1964]

I am not sure it has much to do with maintenance, just simply the buses would exceed the permitted age if they had a 7 year contract. Again this is not the first contract to only be given a 5 year term based on vehicle age.

The 9 converted to LTs October 2013, so unless there is going to be a replacement with later examples sometime during the contract, these buses would be 15 years 3 months old at end of contract.

This is higher than what I thought TfL allows for age.

 

[MotCO]

The 9 converted to LTs October 2013, so unless there is going to be a replacement with later examples sometime during the contract, these buses would be 15 years 3 months old at end of contract.

This is higher than what I thought TfL allows for age.

If TfL convert NRMs to BEV, does the age limit still apply, or is it considered a 'new' bus? If not, what was the point of converting one as a trial - the payback period would have been too short to be viable if the buses only had a limited life remaining.

 

[chopperman21]

The 9 converted to LTs October 2013, so unless there is going to be a replacement with later examples sometime during the contract, these buses would be 15 years 3 months old at end of contract.

This is higher than what I thought TfL allows for age.

We don't really know how TfL will manage the LTs end of life care, at that stage 12 weeks might not mean too much to them. Given they have messed around with the contract length so much over the last 10 years. Equally they may request a change to the allocated batch, to allow the oldest to be withdrawn.

 

[GusB]

Big surprise in the latest tender results - RATP have lost the 9/N9 to Metroline from early 2024. That route's been with RATP and its predecessors for over 30 years.

Could have a source for this, please?

 

[SteveHFC]

Could have a source for this, please?

http://www.londonbusroutes.net/changes.htm#3

 

[Surreyman]

This is not the first route to change hands where the (NRM) buses have moved with the route. Lets not forget the troubles that RATP have had for a number of months, have they started to put more realistic costs in place now? I am not sure we can say its TfL punishing them either, unless Abellio are next on the list. The other thing to bare in mind is, have Metroline found some greater efficiencies over RATP, such as remote sign on etc?


I am not sure it has much to do with maintenance, just simply the buses would exceed the permitted age if they had a 7 year contract. Again this is not the first contract to only be given a 5 year term based on vehicle age.

Given that the LTs are owned by Tfl, I wonder what the accountants have allowed as 'Asset book life' - London buses seem to average about 13 years in service, although that might be more to do with leasing terms than an official age limit, as the LTs are owned and will have been refurbished, 15 years maybe?
Moving the 9 to Metroline involves more 'dead running' than with RATP, currently based at Chiswick High Rd(Stamford Brook depot) to start at Hammersmith bus station.
Metrolines nearest depot/outstation is Kings Cross - Parent depot Holloway(currently full with the 30 & 274) at the eastern end or Brentford at the western end.

 

[chopperman21]

Given that the LTs are owned by Tfl, I wonder what the accountants have allowed as 'Asset book life' - London buses seem to average about 13 years in service, although that might be more to do with leasing terms than an official age limit, as the LTs are owned and will have been refurbished, 15 years maybe?
Moving the 9 to Metroline involves more 'dead running' than with RATP, currently based at Chiswick High Rd(Stamford Brook depot) to start at Hammersmith bus station.
Metrolines nearest depot/outstation is Kings Cross - Parent depot Holloway(currently full with the 30 & 274) at the eastern end or Brentford at the western end.

Metroline have confirmed on a internal staff notice that it will be Brentford operated.

 

[Surreyman]

Metroline have confirmed on a internal staff notice that it will be Brentford operated.

That will be easier if any drivers TUPE across.

 

[londonbridge]

What happened to the proposed changes to some routes in and around Croydon/Sutton, which included the withdrawal of route 455 and replacing part of it by extending the S4 from Roundshaw to Waddon Marsh, as well as changes to the 407, S1 and S3? Last I knew the consultation had ended, some of the plans had been confirmed and some revised, but there was no implementation date. Late last year I asked an S4 driver if the changes were still going ahead and he said yes, but I can’t find any more info or dates.

 

[Edsmith]

What happened to the proposed changes to sone routes in and around Croydon/Sutton, which included the withdrawal of route 455 and replacing part of it by extending the S4 from Roundshaw to Waddon Marsh, as well as changes to the 407, S1 and S3? Last I knew the consultation had ended, some of the plans had been confirmed and some revised, but there was no implementation date. Late last year I asked an S4 driver if the changes were still going ahead and he said yes, but I can’t find any more info or dates.

As far as I'm aware they are happening next year but it does seem incredibly long winded.

 

[londonbridge]

Next year now? Does seem rather drawn out, although the whole process was delayed by the pandemic.