Northern Gives Fare Dodgers The Red Card

[Titfield]

https://www.passengertransport.co.uk/2023/02/northern-gives-fare-dodgers-the-red-card/

Worth a read but I dont think provides any significant additional insight to regular readers of this forum.

In Carlisle Group, Powles has a supplier that not only understands the problem and responds to it, but who properly trains and equip its staff as rounded revenue protection experts.

It could be seen as a party political broadcast on behalf of the "Carlisle Party" and thus ignores / air brushes any of their failings. Some may hoot derisively at the statement " properly trains" but nevertheless it is illustrative of how at least one supplier and TOC are working together in the matter of revenue protection.

 

[Bletchleyite]

https://www.passengertransport.co.uk/2023/02/northern-gives-fare-dodgers-the-red-card/

Worth a read but I dont think provides any addtional insight to regular readers of this forum.

He says he is not wanting to write an advertorial, then proceeds to write one by failing to highlight the significant shortcomings of using cheap outsourced security guards to deal with a very complex issue like rail fares, and talks up the quality of these "rentathug" RPIs rather than mentioning the poor communication skills and poor understanding of the rules most of them seem to demonstrate. Definitely an advertorial!

 

[Titfield]

He says he is not wanting to write an advertorial, then proceeds to write one by failing to highlight the significant shortcomings of using cheap outsourced security guards to deal with a very complex issue like rail fares, and talks up the quality of these "rentathug" RPIs rather than mentioning the poor communication skills and poor understanding of the rules most of them seem to demonstrate. Definitely an advertorial!

It would be fascinating to see a selection of sample cases from start to finish including the initial interaction "at the station" (or on train).

You mention poor communication skills and poor understanding of the rules. These problems bedevil any industry which call upon labour at the lower cost end of the market. I am not sure I would call them cheap anymore. Given staff turnover in some of these occupations training them to a higher level seems an almost impossible / unviable task. Likewise you mention "rentathug". Personally I would not tolerate any overly aggressive or inappropriate behaviour towards customers (nor do I condone it) but increasingly watching how people behave (at the gp surgery, in supermarkets and on the roads of Great Britain) and from fly on the wall documentaries I can see how those engaged in this work adopt a robust / cynical approach given how they themselves are treated.

 

[LOL The Irony]

You mention poor communication skills and poor understanding of the rules. These problems bedevil any industry which call upon labour at the lower cost end of the market.

So that makes it OK?

Likewise you mention "rentathug".

Northern do use rentathugs. The name of the company they hire these people from, Carlisle, wouldn't be out of place on an A-Team episode.

but increasingly watching how people behave (at the gp surgery, in supermarkets and on the roads of Great Britain) and from fly on the wall documentaries I can see how those engaged in this work adopt a robust / cynical approach given how they themselves are treated.

This is a strawman argument. I'd say their poor training and the attitude of some will encourage bad behaviour from some in response to their actions.

 

[matt_world2004]

You mention poor communication skills and poor understanding of the rules. These problems bedevil any industry which call upon labour at the lower cost end of the market. I am not sure I would call them cheap anymore. Given staff turnover in some of these occupations training them to a higher level seems an almost impossible / unviable task. Likewise you mention "rentathug". Personally I would not tolerate any overly aggressive or inappropriate behaviour towards customers (nor do I condone it) but increasingly watching how people behave (at the gp surgery, in supermarkets and on the roads of Great Britain) and from fly on the wall documentaries I can see how those engaged in this work adopt a robust / cynical approach given how they themselves are treated

So pay them more and improve terms and conditions

 

[yorkie]

Awful article, I will just pick out two bits:

It’s also interesting to regularly note at Leeds how the queue at the Excess Fares window no longer stretches halfway down Platform 1, but now in dribs and drabs, testimony to the message getting home to fare evaders.

I strongly suspect this is actually due to the rise in e-ticket availability.

In Carlisle Group, Powles has a supplier that not only understands the problem and responds to it, but who properly trains and equip its staff as rounded revenue protection experts.

This is absolutely not consistent with the experiences of myself and others.

(@Titfield - don't forget to edit your post to include a quote and comment please, thanks )

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is absolutely not consistent with the experiences of myself and others.

Indeed. As mentioned, I found it quite amusing that the writer specifically said it wasn't an advertorial then went on to write one.

 

[SuspectUsual]

This is absolutely not consistent with the experiences of myself and others

Absolutely

 

[Class800]

'Rounded' - term used in article - might be right - but only in the sense of 'rotund'!

 

[AlterEgo]

Definitely reads like an advertorial - Northern's fraud detection like "GCHQ"? Give over.

 

[Titfield]

I actually wondered if there was some sort of Award for Best Revenue Protection Team of the Year (a bit like the BBCs Sports Personality of the Year) and this was the team intro delivered by hosts Jonathan Pearce and Alex Scott

"Powles, is a classic example. It seems he’s been on the scene longer than Cliff Richard, but he’s got that steely determination, dynamism and ‘been round the block’ intuition that’s vital in an industry"

"Jason Wade, who despite his boyish good looks is into his 50s and has arguably more specialist experience in revenue protection than anyone else in the UK".

"Louise Shearer, the unflappable boss who oversees the Northern revenue protection team"

"Evans- He’s progressed from security guard to CEO and tackling fare evasion is in his blood. Like your typical bouncer, he’s got piercing eyes and is very much ‘no-nonsense’"

"young Andrew Turnbull, ice-hockey fanatic and marquee signing from local bus company Blazefield"

"Evans, Powles and their entourage are a strange collection of indefatigable, strong-minded, focused individuals who, in their coming together, have formed a team and approach that, bluntly speaking, could be utilised to provide a joined-up, multi-faceted revenue protection service for the entire industry in the new world".

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Feb 2023 ==

Definitely reads like an advertorial - Northern's fraud detection like "GCHQ"? Give over.

GCHQ - more like B and Q.

 

[Scott1]

I'm a firm belive in robust revenue protection, in fact often at odds with pleanty of people on this forum if I'm honest. That said, I can't disagree that this not only reads like a paid promotion, but it doesn't even go skin deep with its analysis of Northern's revenue approach and the wider industry successes and challenges.

It also glosses over the issues of outsourcing to companies like Carlisle. I'm not a fan of the term "rent a thug", it's unfair to the people who do the job well and tars everyone with a broad brush. My TOC also outsources security, in fact I think almost all of them do, and there are some really good officers and some I'd rather not have. Frankly, the biggest problem in my eyes, is what they get paid. It means people with a strong work ethic get little reward, other than my appreciation.

I understand the article probably doesn't want to give away some tricks of the trade, and I get that, but it reads like something for the local newspaper, not something aimed at people who already have a decent knowledge of the industry.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Extract (from linked article in post #1)...

Northern has 474 stations and only operates 20 gatelines.

Blackpool North and Leeds will presumably be two of these 20 gatelines. Where are the other 18 located?

 

[Haywain]

Extract (from linked article in post #1)...


Blackpool North and Leeds will presumably be two of these 20 gatelines. Where are the other 18 located?

Manchester Victoria? Rochdale?

 

[island]

Salford Crescent, Manchester Oxford Road, and Wigan Wallgate

 

[Watershed]

Manchester Victoria? Rochdale?

also Wigan Wallgate, Salford Crescent, Manchester Piccadilly and Oxford Road, Bolton, Warrington Central, Blackburn, Bradford Interchange, Sunderland, Harrogate.

 

[pwharley]

Blackpool North and Leeds will presumably be two of these 20 gatelines. Where are the other 18 located?

To add to those already posted....
Glossop

Watershed - Manchester Piccadilly is a network rail station

 

[Starmill]

Extract (from linked article in post #1)...


Blackpool North and Leeds will presumably be two of these 20 gatelines. Where are the other 18 located?

Barrow-in-Furness
Blackpool North
Blackburn
St Helens Central
Liverpool Lime Street (1-5)
Warrington Central
Bolton
Wigan Wallgate
Salford Crescent
Salford Central (temporarily closed)
Manchester Oxford Road
Manchester Victoria
Glossop
Rochdale
Bradford Interchange
Bradford Forster Square
Skipton
Leeds
Harrogate
Hartlepool

It's not a very accurate picture though of the places they serve which have ticket gates, for obvious reasons, and of course doesn't include Manchester Piccadilly which has more revenue protection staff than most stations with ticket gates. Deansgate has a permanent manual check also. The new station at Sunderland may have ticket gates, I don't know.

It would better protect Northern's revenue if Avanti West Coast and TransPennine Express actually staffed ticket gates at the locations they're already in place, and Warrington Bank Quay, Wigan North Western, Lancaster, Stalybridge, Middlesbrough and Thornaby. TPE did announce Stalybridge, Scarborough and Hull would be fitted, but I don't think they have been yet. More Northern stations were a possibility (e.g. Halifax, Bridlington) but weren't possible on the ground.

 

[Watershed]

To add to those already posted....
Glossop

Watershed - Manchester Piccadilly is a network rail station

It may be a Network Rail managed station but Network Rail don't manage any barrier lines - that is done by one of the TOCs at each of their managed station. Unusually, at Manchester Piccadilly it is done by three different TOCs - TPE for the barriers to platforms 1-3, Avanti for the barriers to platforms 4-8 and Northern for the manual barriers to platforms 9-14.

 

[Starmill]

I'm a firm belive in robust revenue protection, in fact often at odds with pleanty of people on this forum if I'm honest.

Is that really the case? I've never seen anyone advocating for people to use the service unfairly, to everyone else's cost. If you need to buy a ticket, you shouldn't travel ticketlessly. In a similar way I've never seen anyone suggest it isn't wrong to make a GP appointment and no-show it without giving notice.

 

[Merseyrailfan]

No guards on trains and at unstaffed stations means fare dodgers can get away.

 

[Hadders]

No guards on trains and at unstaffed stations means fare dodgers can get away.

Every Northern train has a guard.

 

[Merseyrailfan]

Every Northern train has a guard.

Even the 195 and 331s?

 

[Starmill]

Even the 195 and 331s?

Yes.

 

[Merseyrailfan]

do guards do regular ticket check.

 

[SuspectUsual]

do guards do regular ticket check.

They should, but as ever, it depends. Some seem a lot keener than others, but obviously all I have is what I can see, I don't know what else is going on at any given time

 

[robbeech]

The fact that people here (and I mean this with the upmost respect) do not know that all Northern trains have a guard says a lot about how little revenue work is done by them and how often they show themselves in the carriage.
I’ve done fairly long trips on Northern quite recently, sat quite near the back and not seen the guard short of station stops. Indeed even journeys that were essentially guaranteed a check have gone without of late.

 

[sheff1]

..

 

[johnnychips]

do guards do regular ticket check.

As an almost daily user of Northern, I find tickets are checked at least 75% of the time, at least in South Yorkshire.

 

[156421]

They should, but as ever, it depends. Some seem a lot keener than others, but obviously all I have is what I can see, I don't know what else is going on at any given time

A side effect of the ones who don't bother to check tickets is... you have to go hammering on the door of the "back cab" to request a request stop.