WCML Feb weekend closures at Preston

[Bald Rick]

I'm to travel on the WCML to Glasgow on the weekend of Fri 10th - Sun 12th March. What's the best way to find out first when the amended timetable is published? Are the Avanti 'Advance Train Ticket Alerts' any good or is there a better way to find out first when they are available?

The Timetable is due to be published about 3 weeks out, and tickets will be on sale 1-2 weeks out. There’s no direct services, as all lines are booked at Carstairs, so it’s a Voyager service Carlisle - Glasgow via Kilmarnock.

 

[30907]

The Timetable is due to be published about 3 weeks out, and tickets will be on sale 1-2 weeks out. There’s no direct services, as all lines are booked at Carstairs, so it’s a Voyager service Carlisle - Glasgow via Kilmarnock.

And no trains via Preston on the Sunday, see upthread.

 

[185143]

I'm booked on the Northbound Highland sleeper on the night of the 19th Feb, which seems to still be booked via WCML. Yet the Avanti train that leaves Euston 6 minutes earlier terminates at Wigan for a bus to Preston.

Are we going WCML or taking a diversion via the ECML?

 

[Winthorpe]

The Timetable is due to be published about 3 weeks out, and tickets will be on sale 1-2 weeks out. There’s no direct services, as all lines are booked at Carstairs, so it’s a Voyager service Carlisle - Glasgow via Kilmarnock.

And no trains via Preston on the Sunday, see upthread.

Thank you both

 

[MDB1images]

West Coast main line closure for Preston station track upgrades - Rail UK

West Coast main line closure for Preston station track upgrades - Permanent Way

railuk.com

says for 3 full weekends and a Sunday no trains at all through Preston...
and looking at NR journey planner, every single Avanti train journey is split between 2 buses Wigan to Preston and Preston to Lancaster. Hasn't it occurred to them that through passengers don't need to go into Preston to change (losing yet more time and taking more buses for the same work) in the process?

If they are providing enough buses to cope with Pendolinos full of people, surely they realise that shuttling the through passengers direct between Wigan and Lancaster will save them bus-hours and money?

You have to wonder whether the people planning it ever travel by train, or have any concept of minimising passengers' inconvenience...

Don't think the RR Buses are all in the system as yet(it is though 11 days off so most passengers will be checking for route options/times now!)
When looking at NR journey planner earlier for 19/02 it was directing anyone travelling from London to Preston/Glasgow to catch a train to Manchester Piccadilly and then a Rail replacement bus forward from Manchester(Glasgow passengers to catch one Manchester to Lancaster).
The trains are showing in RTT as still running Euston to Wigan, so can only presume the Buses forward haven't been uploaded into the system as yet.
In fact looking at St Helens Central to Preston I'd certainly hope the RR Buses for Wigan are yet to go in the system, it gives a journey time of 2hr41(!!)with a train and 2 buses via Wigan and Bolton!

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Is it too wishful to be running Voyagers, possibly even hired in other stock (e.g. XC 221s like that time there were VT 221s with Preston drivers as conductors on Bournemouth jobs) from Crewe to Carlisle every hour along the Farington curve, Hellifield and Settle every hour?

 

[30907]

Don't think the RR Buses are all in the system as yet(it is though 11 days off so most passengers will be checking for route options/times now!)

I am sure at some stage the NT buses from Wigan to Blackpool were loaded and have now been deleted. VT aren't as the Avanti website states.

 

[Bald Rick]

Is it too wishful to be running Voyagers, possibly even hired in other stock (e.g. XC 221s like that time there were VT 221s with Preston drivers as conductors on Bournemouth jobs) from Crewe to Carlisle every hour along the Farington curve, Hellifield and Settle every hour?

Where does the other stock come from, and what replaces that?

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Where does the other stock come from, and what replaces that?

We are in a world where when a Monarch dies, the money suddenly appears for WCRC and LSL to do all sorts. To suggest that during the Winter timetable XC don't have a couple of Voyagers about, and that you couldn't do *something* with Voyagers (I'm guessing even for Crewe to Carlisle it's 7 pairs), then you cut the Holyheads back to shuttles, cancel the Chester shuttles, and don't run owt through to London that's diesel.

 

[Bungle965]

We are in a world where when a Monarch dies, the money suddenly appears for WCRC and LSL to do all sorts.

That was definitely out of the norm, it was a time where exceptional demand was anticipated and there was an expectation that the current service level at that time simply couldn't cope (Still on a reduced timetable at that time)
Whether you agree with it or not, planned engineering work doesn't come under the same banner.

 

[Tractor37]

I'm booked on the Northbound Highland sleeper on the night of the 19th Feb, which seems to still be booked via WCML. Yet the Avanti train that leaves Euston 6 minutes earlier terminates at Wigan for a bus to Preston.

Are we going WCML or taking a diversion via the ECML?

On our brief we’ve received. The Sleeper's are only diverted via the East Coast on the 26th Feb and 5th March. It doesn’t mention the 19th Feb do they should be running via the West Coast

 

[30907]

To suggest that during the Winter timetable XC don't have a couple of Voyagers about, and that you couldn't do *something* with Voyagers (I'm guessing even for Crewe to Carlisle it's 7 pairs)

Journey time Crewe to Carlisle would be 3.5 hours so that's 8 diagrams meaning an extra 2 hours journey allowing for transfers. That's a challenge to resource at the best of times, leaving aside route knowledge issues which are a fact of life though we might wish it otherwise (I do, and for a Preston-Carlisle block it ought to be the practise).

In this case, though, the block is Wigan-Lancaster which ought to be at most 90min non-stop by coach, which is 30min quicker (again allowing for transfers) - and the trains either side, and the connecting coaches, have to be provided anyway. So the Voyager solution is both slower and less efficient - and could only be done this once as the units will be working via Dumfries in March.

 

[sprinterguy]

To suggest that during the Winter timetable XC don't have a couple of Voyagers about

They don't: The XC Voyager fleet is fully utilised all year round, there isn't the sort of seasonal variation in stock usage that might have been witnessed in decades past, just minor differences in where double sets are deployed between winter and summer.

 

[Watershed]

We are in a world where when a Monarch dies, the money suddenly appears for WCRC and LSL to do all sorts. To suggest that during the Winter timetable XC don't have a couple of Voyagers about, and that you couldn't do *something* with Voyagers (I'm guessing even for Crewe to Carlisle it's 7 pairs), then you cut the Holyheads back to shuttles, cancel the Chester shuttles, and don't run owt through to London that's diesel.

It's demonstrably the case that it would be possible to provide train service via alternative routes, but the question is whether it would be a good use of time and money.

There aren't enough WCRC/LSL etc. locos and sets or Voyagers to operate a normal, or even hourly, diverted service, so a change of trains at either end would be necessarily regardless. Though it will put off most passengers, a coach is likely to be the quickest option.

The points where the industry has fallen down here is in failing to co-ordinate blockades properly (how on earth have LNE been allowed to take an all line block on the ECML at the same time?!) and failing to publish timetables at an acceptable timescale (2 or 3 days in advance is ridiculous - these possessions have been planned a year or more in advance).

 

[MisterSheeps]

Which part of S & C is being replaced? does it block the freight lines away from the station, near the old royal mail platform?

 

[The Planner]

Which part of S & C is being replaced? does it block the freight lines away from the station, near the old royal mail platform?

Reballasting of the lot with lines blocked for the engineering trains

 

[Train Maniac]

Im heading up to Scotland for a weeks rail bashing on Feb 19th. Ive decided to make a bit of an adventure out of it, going via the MML for a lunch break in Sheffield, hop across to Doncaster and then an East Coast service to Edinburgh, all for under £85! (on advances)

 

[MisterSheeps]

Reballasting of the lot

Thank you.
Shhhh, don't mention the L&Y lines

 

[Class 170101]

Journey time Crewe to Carlisle would be 3.5 hours so that's 8 diagrams meaning an extra 2 hours journey allowing for transfers. That's a challenge to resource at the best of times, leaving aside route knowledge issues which are a fact of life though we might wish it otherwise (I do, and for a Preston-Carlisle block it ought to be the practise).

In this case, though, the block is Wigan-Lancaster which ought to be at most 90min non-stop by coach, which is 30min quicker (again allowing for transfers) - and the trains either side, and the connecting coaches, have to be provided anyway. So the Voyager solution is both slower and less efficient - and could only be done this once as the units will be working via Dumfries in March.

Whilst it might be possible to do Wigan NW to Lancaster in 90 minutes by Coach thats by no means guaranteed given its the M6. In addition consider there is a shortage of drivers for them - they have gone to be HGV drivers but haven't been replaced in equal numbers.

Therefore running a diverted service could be considered an option but the biggest challenge is the route between Bolton and Blackburn which is partially a single line and secondly the whole length isn't wired. It is likely to need an hourly Voyager service between either Euston and Carlisle or between Crewe and Glasgow, passengers won't change twice whether there is enough units, I would be surprised.

The other point to note is that passengers will accept, up to a point, a longer journey - and Passenger Focus did research to this effect, if it means they don't have to travel by road and I would say look at the East Coast where it is quicker via the A1 between Newcastle and Edinburgh but the operator (over the years) still operates a train service between Newcastle and Edinburgh via Carlisle.

 

[WatcherZero]

Yeah you have about a 50% chance of being stuck in a traffic jam on the M6 as you pass Preston, particularly in rush hour.

 

[Bald Rick]

Whilst it might be possible to do Wigan NW to Lancaster in 90 minutes by Coach thats by no means guaranteed given its the M6.

Yeah you have about a 50% chance of being stuck in a traffic jam on the M6 as you pass Preston, particularly in rush hour.

It‘s 46 miles. In my frequent experience of travelling that part of the M6 at weekends (which is when this will be happening), congestion is rare, and limited to when there has been an accident, or a particularly big flow to Blackpool (good weather / illuminations, neither of which are likely for the next few weeks). I think I’ve got stuck near Preston once in the last 20 years, and I use it at least 6 times a year.

90minutes is plenty, and I’d expect most trips to do it in around an hour.

 

[Pinus contorta]

I think the likely reason its 90 minutes is to factor in the station forecourt to the junction of the m6 leg of the journey.

I have heard the joke mentioned that the m6 motorway turns to cobbles when you reach Lancashire!

 

[Jimini]

I have heard the joke mentioned that the m6 motorway turns to cobbles when you reach Lancashire!

That happens when you stray further than the M25!

 

[CE142]

Is it too wishful to be running Voyagers, possibly even hired in other stock (e.g. XC 221s like that time there were VT 221s with Preston drivers as conductors on Bournemouth jobs) from Crewe to Carlisle every hour along the Farington curve, Hellifield and Settle every hour?

The Modern Railway doesn't do diversionary route like BR used to do. No Avanti Driver or Guard signs the S&C anymore thanks to the DFT! Same for TPE as well!

 

[Carlisle]

It's demonstrably the case that it would be possible to provide train service via alternative routes, but the question is whether it would be a good use of time and money.

If the staff that’d normally be working are on rest days it might not be , but if NR or whoever are compensating a TOC sufficiently to allow most staff to be paid to essentially do nothing it could well be.

 

[M&NEJ]

The Modern Railway doesn't do diversionary route like BR used to do. No Avanti Driver or Guard signs the S&C anymore thanks to the DFT! Same for TPE as well!

Presumably there's a difference of approach between Avanti and East Coast, because the latter does often seem to divert via the Tyne valley though?

 

[The Planner]

The Modern Railway doesn't do diversionary route like BR used to do. No Avanti Driver or Guard signs the S&C anymore thanks to the DFT! Same for TPE as well!

Nothing to do with the DfT, the TOC chose not to keep route knowledge.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Feb 2023 ==

If the staff that’d normally be working are on rest days it might not be , but if NR or whoever are compensating a TOC sufficiently to allow most staff to be paid to essentially do nothing it could well be.

The compensation is just a fixed rate based on the amended timetable.

 

[The exile]

Nothing to do with the DfT, the TOC chose not to keep route knowledge.

Though the failure to require them to maintain it through a clause in the franchise agreement is down to the DfT.

 

[The Planner]

Though the failure to require them to maintain it through a clause in the franchise agreement is down to the DfT.

I would be surprised if any of the franchise agreements have it in there, or if it is it will just be a very vague statement which can be worked around. At what level do you keep diversionary knowledge for? for some TOCs the permutations are massive.

 

[The exile]

I would be surprised if any of the franchise agreements have it in there, or if it is it will just be a very vague statement which can be worked around. At what level do you keep diversionary knowledge for? for some TOCs the permutations are massive.

Indeed, but the decision not to specify is the DfT’s. “The operating company shall take all necessary measures to ensure that route knowledge is maintained on such diversionary routes as may reasonably be expected to be required to maintain a through train service within the following xyz months” should do it Reasinable to expect ECML to maintain knowledge of Durham Coast, Tyne Valley etc but not Cumbrian Coast in case ECML, S&C and WCML are all simultaneously blocked.