Euston-Watford/North London DC Lines before London Overground

[Ken H]

While we are on the new line i love watching the goings on at Queens Park. Especially the tube trains running through the car sheds. But the cross platform interchange works well there too.

Re AWS. Wasnt there an issue with AWS and 3rd rail. I think hey needed stronger magnets. Which is why 3rd rail AWS magnets are green, not yellow?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Were these removed (or should I say not reinstalled) north of Harrow (and at the south end) under the BR resignalling of the late 1980s?

Correct , - and the 1980's resignalling was very sparse north of Harrow and W.

(in passing , faulty tripcocks were a problem to replace due to lack of spares , - Merseyrail would often oblige by sending one South)

 

[Railsigns]

The LMSR signalling of 1932-33 did have tripcocks all the way to Watford. Were these removed (or should I say not reinstalled) north of Harrow (and at the south end) under the BR resignalling of the late 1980s?

The device beside the track is called a trainstop. Tripcocks are attached to trains.

The new (1988) signalling only had trainstops as far north as Harrow and Wealdstone.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Great minds thing alike!

I always wondered why the brand was Silverlink, yet had the rather odd green and purple colours. To be fair most of Silverlink worked reasonably well, what did it was the security issues on elements of the metro routes.

Yours truly , by rigerous personal attention got the DC up to 95%+ punctuality.

Security was better than people imagined , partly due to the brilliant CCTV center and the dedicated staff that worked it - they would look for possible miscreants and warn them off on the PA that they were being watched. The used to keep a close eye also on what they guessed as vulnerable people and track them on their journeys. Mobile patrols helped in the pre-named dodgy areas at certain times of day. Agree , it could be sketchy in places , especially Carpenders Park !

Noticeable that the 313's seemed safer than the Bakerloo off peak , as a 3 car train had the passengers "together" on lighter loaded services , there was a regrettable number of robbings etc on the Bakerloo trains which could be quiet south of Harrow at certain times of day.

We used to do random station blocks and on train checks , usually harvesting lots of unpaid fares. (when the BTP were with us , they did good business !) - once you have done ticket checks on the 2337 off Euston , one can never be scared of any other trains. (actually , it was fine !)

The 2310 off the Junction was a nightmare train as it picked up a harvest of drunks and worse from Watford to Carpenters Park and again from Harrow , Harlesden etc. It was often out of service at Euston due to "carriage soiling" - discharged extinguishers etc - even plain clothes BTP were appalled the lawlessness. I discovered it was not in the service level commitment so I took it off asap.








I is

 

[Bevan Price]

The Oerlikon (LNWR built) stock - open with end doors - all went (AIUI - just before my time) very quickly after the 501s arrived. The 'older' stock which survived into the 1960s (until services were reduced in the Beeching era) were the LMSR built MetroVick/MCW units of the late twenties, with compartments (similar stock was used on the Liverpool-Southport and Manchester-Altrincham lines - last were obviously for the 1500v OH system).


The DC lines were originally an LNWR only scheme - which included a low-level terminal (loop?) under Euston station. The scheme was later changed to replace this with an extension of the LER Bakerloo Line to Queens Park, and through running (using the Watford Joint Stock) to Watford.

While the 'New Line' from Camden to Watford was always intended to be electric, when it was first opened (1912) it was steam worked: not until 1922 (and completion of the new juntion system) was electric operation through Camden (either from Broad Street or Euston) possible. But there were electric trains earlier, from Broad Street via Gospel Oak and Willesden Jn (1916-17) and the Bakerloo via Queens Park (1917).

What perhaps should be mentioned were the earlier bits of the electric scheme: from Willesden Junction HL over the West London to Kensington Addison Road (now Olympia), thence over the Metropolitan District to Earls couty or High Street Kensington (opened 1914, sevice withdrawn 1940); and Broad Street-RIchmond in 1916.

Those services from Willesden Junction ceased because of war damage to the line and stations in WW2.

 

[thedbdiboy]

What did for the DC was the WCML electrification which gave a huge step change to the frequency at places like Harrow and Watford (limited extent to Bushey) , and population changes in the 1930's suburbs north of Wembley which saw the bright and keen residents of the areas , retire and stop commuting , but they largely (I think) stayed in the area , but their offspring moved away , or further down the line to greener places. Very much in decline from the 1960's onwards and probably reached rock bottom by say 1980. For too long , it was characterized by not very clean trains , vandalized interiors far worse than you would see now (not just slashed seats , but booted in ceiling panels) , and a perception of "not safe" (whereas the Met line in the area was deemed "safe")

It has bounced back a bit - transformed even.

From a security perspective the problem has always been the Kilburn High Road to Wembley Central section, which has simply been unfortunate in serving what was during the 80s and 90s a *very* rough part of London. The atmosphere on this section at night was absolutely horrendous.

While I agree that the presentation of the line is far better than what it was, there is still unfortunately a perception , at least on the northern half of the line, that the Met line is deemed safer. As someone who grew up in Hatch End , I found most of my friends in the area would prefer the walk to Pinner and catching the Met , as compared to using the line from Hatch End , and this was under LO !

I grew up in Hatch End and I remember whenever we had visitors my dad would direct them to the Met line and Pinner - he didn't want them travelling through the badlands of Willesden and Stonebridge Park. However in my teens a group of us would often go to the Mean Fiddler in Harlesden and leg it to get the last train north from Willesden Jn (the 2357 ex-Euston, 0012 off Willesden I think) and we never had any trouble, even though the area was a lot more *ahem* edgy then.

Were class 501s fitted with AWS?

Nope (see image)

The LMSR signalling of 1932-33 did have tripcocks all the way to Watford. Were these removed (or should I say not reinstalled) north of Harrow (and at the south end) under the BR resignalling of the late 1980s?

Correct , - and the 1980's resignalling was very sparse north of Harrow and W.

(in passing , faulty tripcocks were a problem to replace due to lack of spares , - Merseyrail would often oblige by sending one South)

The resignalling north of Hatch End was a classis minimum viable investment, a train leaving Hatch End northbound for example not clearing the section until it departed Carpenders Park. Until the loss of the peak time Bakerloo trains in 1982 this would have been insufficient to let the peak timetable but by 1988 the timetable had been thinned out heavily with just an all day 20 minutes service and a couple of desultory Liverpool St trains that more often than not were cancelled.

 

[bramling]

Yours truly , by rigerous personal attention got the DC up to 95%+ punctuality.

Security was better than people imagined , partly due to the brilliant CCTV center and the dedicated staff that worked it - they would look for possible miscreants and warn them off on the PA that they were being watched. The used to keep a close eye also on what they guessed as vulnerable people and track them on their journeys. Mobile patrols helped in the pre-named dodgy areas at certain times of day. Agree , it could be sketchy in places , especially Carpenders Park !

Noticeable that the 313's seemed safer than the Bakerloo off peak

The latter is an interesting point indeed, and to be fair would match my experiences.

TFL made a big thing of blaming Silverlink for the “personal security issues”, yet as you say it was actually on Bakerloo trains where the atmosphere was most dodgy. For all TFL’s noise, I’m not sure what exactly *they* did about that, save for sticking labels in the trains alluding to supposed CCTV that didn’t actually (and still doesn’t!) exist. Something tells me these labels were the response to one particular incident on one of their Bakerloo trains, and I’d lay a hefty bet it was north of Queen’s Park.

It’s no understatement how horrific the atmosphere was up there in the 90s. Drugged up nutters from the Stonebridge Estate were a typical feature at any time of day.

as a 3 car train had the passengers "together" on lighter loaded services , there was a regrettable number of robbings etc on the Bakerloo trains which could be quiet south of Harrow at certain times of day.

Certainly needed an awareness of surroundings on the Bakerloo.

We used to do random station blocks and on train checks , usually harvesting lots of unpaid fares. (when the BTP were with us , they did good business !) - once you have done ticket checks on the 2337 off Euston , one can never be scared of any other trains. (actually , it was fine !)

The 2310 off the Junction was a nightmare train as it picked up a harvest of drunks and worse from Watford to Carpenters Park and again from Harrow , Harlesden etc. It was often out of service at Euston due to "carriage soiling" - discharged extinguishers etc - even plain clothes BTP were appalled the lawlessness. I discovered it was not in the service level commitment so I took it off asap.

Amazes me who would want to go for a night out in Watford, but I suppose everything in life is relative!

 

[Bald Rick]

Nope (see image)

Wonder what ASLEF would make of that cab now…

 

[nw1]

From a security perspective the problem has always been the Kilburn High Road to Wembley Central section, which has simply been unfortunate in serving what was during the 80s and 90s a *very* rough part of London. The atmosphere on this section at night was absolutely horrendous.

Naively I've never associated this area with being particularly rough, though I don't know it other than vaguely being in the same area as Hampstead and Wembley.

I guess I may have got lucky (in avoiding trouble) on one occasion in that case. I remember one evening in early January 1996 (probably about 6pm, I remember immediately before I had been observing the early peak of the Chatham lines at Victoria) I attempted to use Willesden Junction to observe some WCML traffic (i.e. 86s and 87s) go past, so remember taking some mode of train transport there, probably the tube. I found that the view of the WCML was completely blocked by high walls, rendering observation impossible (so left and headed back into central London) but perhaps it was a less than salubrious place to hang around after dark anyway?

I do also seem to remember not liking the atmosphere there either (otherwise, I might have hunted around a bit for a better view). Wet, dark and a little bit deserted.

 

[R Martin]

Sorry, not verry good at blogging! I may have been wrong about the maker of the older units, being a young electrician I was more interested in the electrical equipment witch was MetroVick with the electrical control equipment behind the drivers cab with just a single rail or bar between the walkway and 630V DC!.
In answer to a previous question the original supply was from a generating station at Stonebridge Park. their were also substations around the network but the only one I can remember is the one at Euston, which also had disused resistor bank and switchgear for regeneration. I think Stonebridge Park was closed in 1962.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

What perhaps should be mentioned were the earlier bits of the electric scheme: from Willesden Junction HL over the West London to Kensington Addison Road (now Olympia), thence over the Metropolitan District to Earls couty or High Street Kensington (opened 1914, sevice withdrawn 1940); and Broad Street-RIchmond in 1916.

This picture from disused stations shows original LNWR electrification still in place at K.Olympia in the 1950s as i believe the service was withdrawn as a wartime economy.

 

[Bald Rick]

To put that area into context. One day when I was a mere stripling, the then Railtrack head of Signal Engineering took me to the erstwhile Willesden PSB when it was the very early stages of being thought about resignalling. I was astonished that we walked straight in through an unlocked door, and straight into the relay room (my first relay room visit). That scared the b’Jesus out of me, seeing the tangles of wires, crocodile clips and DO NOT TOUCH” on relay bases and wiring paths etc*, and wondering what damage someone malevolent could do with a pair of garden shears and a fire extinguisher (this was when the IRA was a threat).

However the point of this anecdote was that we then went up to the operating floor, where 2 of the signallers were proper big fellas: 6ft 4 at least and probably 16st of what looked like pure muscle. They were very keen to have a trackside walking route installed to the PSB, and of course the new box (Wembley Main Line), as they were too scared to walk on the streets there at night. These being the streets I’d just walked down from Harlesden Station.

* not as scared as I was when we left the box, ambled across the slow lines to a location case in the 10 foot to look at some line side wiring and wire degradation. With trains walloping past at 90mph plus. More on that tale in the book…

 

[bramling]

Naively I've never associated this area with being particularly rough, though I don't know it other than vaguely being in the same area as Hampstead and Wembley.

Like much of London, problem areas could be very localised. I think it was the case that this section of line just seemed to run right through a string of such localities.

Certainly the likes of Stonebridge Park and Harlesden have featured variously as gun crime capitals of Britain at times, and I seem to remember at one point Harlesden was regarded as the most dangerous place in the whole UK. It does seem a bit better now, though probably still an area to be wary of.

It’s quite strange really as the area has always had pretty good transport links, so how it ended up being such a ghetto isn’t entirely clear. Perhaps an element of Brent putting all their problem people in one area?

I guess I may have got lucky (in avoiding trouble) on one occasion in that case. I remember one evening in early January 1996 (probably about 6pm, I remember immediately before I had been observing the early peak of the Chatham lines at Victoria) I attempted to use Willesden Junction to observe some WCML traffic (i.e. 86s and 87s) go past, so remember taking some mode of train transport there, probably the tube. I found that the view of the WCML was completely blocked by high walls, rendering observation impossible (so left and headed back into central London) but perhaps it was a less than salubrious place to hang around after dark anyway?

Willesden Junction wasn’t quite such an issue as there tended to be plenty of people about, both people changing trains, and staff. As ChiefPlanner says, the biggest risk was on board lightly loaded Bakerloo Line trains. These were essentially left to their own devices, no security measures at all.

I do also seem to remember not liking the atmosphere there either (otherwise, I might have hunted around a bit for a better view). Wet, dark and a little bit deserted.

If you found Willesden Junction bad, you’d have found the likes of Kensal Green, Harlesden and Stonebridge Park worse!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Feb 2023 ==

To put that area into context. One day when I was a mere stripling, the then Railtrack head of Signal Engineering took me to the erstwhile Willesden PSB when it was the very early stages of being thought about resignalling. I was astonished that we walked straight in through an unlocked door, and straight into the relay room (my first relay room visit). That scared the b’Jesus out of me, seeing the tangles of wires, crocodile clips and DO NOT TOUCH” on relay bases and wiring paths etc*, and wondering what damage someone malevolent could do with a pair of garden shears and a fire extinguisher (this was when the IRA was a threat).

However the point of this anecdote was that we then went up to the operating floor, where 2 of the signallers were proper big fellas: 6ft 4 at least and probably 16st of what looked like pure muscle. They were very keen to have a trackside walking route installed to the PSB, and of course the new box (Wembley Main Line), as they were too scared to walk on the streets there at night. These being the streets I’d just walked down from Harlesden Station.

Similar has applied to the LU depot at Stonebridge Park, staff prefer to drive there or enter/leave by train.

The 16st of muscle wouldn’t have been much help in that area at the time as gun and knife crime was already a massive issue.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The latter is an interesting point indeed, and to be fair would match my experiences.

TFL made a big thing of blaming Silverlink for the “personal security issues”, yet as you say it was actually on Bakerloo trains where the atmosphere was most dodgy. For all TFL’s noise, I’m not sure what exactly *they* did about that, save for sticking labels in the trains alluding to supposed CCTV that didn’t actually (and still doesn’t!) exist. Something tells me these labels were the response to one particular incident on one of their Bakerloo trains, and I’d lay a hefty bet it was north of Queen’s Park.

It’s no understatement how horrific the atmosphere was up there in the 90s. Drugged up nutters from the Stonebridge Estate were a typical feature at any time of day.



Certainly needed an awareness of surroundings on the Bakerloo.



Amazes me who would want to go for a night out in Watford, but I suppose everything in life is relative!

Watford still has a host of insalubrious drinking places and some equally unattractive night clubs. (well I think so) , the once famous Railway Hotel at Harrow (where the Stones etc played and many others) , was infamous for rowdyism which was generally dealt with firmly by the local police (one of my retired police mates) , but even they struggled at times , the McDonalds at Harlesden (used rarely by some of the staff) , had shotguns fired into the ceiling , Harlesden also had the Mean Fiddler , a good music venue , but the clients could be a bit lively , and of course the many pubs in the Kilburn area had certain issues. You can see why the ex 2310 had problems catering for this traffic. The last train moved to 2245 had many less problems. The trouble is the odd "normal" passenger changing at Watford late in the evening inadvertently walked into this hell hole of a train.
The Bakerloo line's habit of turning very late ECS trains into passenger workings (e.g a Harrow to Stonebridge Park ECS) - to rack up loaded passenger miles was utter folly , though great for robbers.

BTP advised the line was a happy hunting ground for South London gangs who worked off their home turf.

Brent had some "tasty" estates - Stonebridge Park and of course Chalk Hill near Wembley Park station. Both demolished now I believe.

 

[bramling]

Watford still has a host of insalubrious drinking places and some equally unattractive night clubs. (well I think so) , the once famous Railway Hotel at Harrow (where the Stones etc played and many others) , was infamous for rowdyism which was generally dealt with firmly by the local police (one of my retired police mates) , but even they struggled at times , the McDonalds at Harlesden (used rarely by some of the staff) , had shotguns fired into the ceiling

I seem to remember when TFL took over the DC stations one of the first jobs was removing bullet holes from Harlesden. Definitely a big problem round there.

The Bakerloo line's habit of turning very late ECS trains into passenger workings (e.g a Harrow to Stonebridge Park ECS) - to rack up loaded passenger miles was utter folly , though great for robbers.

Madness, but goes with the whole notion of LU doing very little useful, whilst at the same time in public blaming Silverlink for issues on board their own trains.

Brent had some "tasty" estates - Stonebridge Park and of course Chalk Hill near Wembley Park station. Both demolished now I believe.

South Kilburn is the other one I was thinking of but couldn’t place the name, just round the corner from Queen’s Park. All three built to a particularly brutalist design, and all three very problematic. I think you’re right they’re all gone now, though presumably at least some of the people still there.

Having said all this, the DC lines didn’t have a monopoly on all this. The Bexleyheath line for example served a notorious estate at Kidbrooke (also now gone), I’d imagine this gave trouble at times too.

 

[Ken H]

To think my grandfather and his young family lived in Kensall Green post WW1. He was in Beckenham by 1925 when Dad was born. Different times...

 

[ChiefPlanner]

One of the crushingly naive ideas on "Silverlink Metro" - "fast , frequent and fun" - seriously , was the idea of retail opportunties on stations.
Many stations and trains had "informal" retail opportunities and sales going on if you follow the reasoning.
So every station on the DC got brand new drink machines installed to sell canned , fizzy , muck.
Predictably they lasted days - the Kenton one was torn off the mountings , slid across the booking hall floor and used to barricade the poor booking clerk in his office; the Harlesden one flung onto the tracks bringing the breakers out and blocking the lines , and most of the rest were wrecked and burgled.
All these brand new machines ended up going for scrap at Bedford. Dread to think what the compensation was.
THe DC and NLL 313's had window wedges to prevent the removable seat squabs being posted out. Ilford removed them on C6 , but they had to be put back. Incidentally - the comparison between a WAGN and NLR 313 when stripped down showed the NLL ones having hundredweights of black dust in the cable runs etc , indicative of their harsh urban berthing places - whereas the WAGN ones mostly berthed in clean and airy Hertfordshire. I was very dissapointed that thanks to "leasing" , the only benefit was in fitting door locks on internal cars so you could lock out a single car (subject to various rules etc) - to keep a train in passenger service as far as possible. Luckily the car cleaners at
Watford were excellent in dealing with the inevitable problems encountered.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Feb 2023 ==

notorious estate at Kidbrooke (also now gone), I’d imagine this gave trouble at times too.(he Ferriers Estate)
Good friend covered the area as SM Relief - any arriving down train disgorged maybe 200 passengers , 100 of which jumped the wooden fence. Day 2 he got the top of the fence coated with point greasing oil (which they could not complain about when they automatically tried to wipe their hands on the clothes - suits may be too posh for some of them) - Day 3 he got the PW to saw the joists on the fence , so the next 100 or so had the fence collapse under them
There was a donkey ride on the common at Blackheath , some of the residents stole the poor animals and held them hostage. They were returned safely - but the criminals had got them into a lift in the flats and held them in a flat.

 

[Tester]

By the mid 80s the DC line signalling was showing its age; many of the components were bespoke, particularly the searchlight signals (83 1/3Hz AC for immunity from both DC and 50Hz AC traction).

So the decision was made to thin out the signals - removing the signals (typically two or four on each line) between the stations from Harrow to Bushey; leaving just the platform signals and their repeaters. This released spares to keep things going.

I think back to the job and compare it with modern ways with a mixture of pride, amazement and horror. I sketched the line circuit alterations on a spare set of maintenance diagrams, and my boss checked my work - the design office had nothing to do with it other than subsequently updating the records.

All changed over on one Saturday night, with no possession (merely a signalling disconnection under the then rule E6) and an empty class 501 running up and down. Certification utterly minimal.

Interestingly the DC resignalling which subsequently replaced all this was commissioned the very day the Clapham Junction collision occurred. Things suddenly became very different!

 

[nw1]

South Kilburn is the other one I was thinking of but couldn’t place the name, just round the corner from Queen’s Park. All three built to a particularly brutalist design, and all three very problematic. I think you’re right they’re all gone now, though presumably at least some of the people still there.

Were these tall tower blocks? I do seem to remember there being some in that area, somewhere round Willesden, perhaps a bit further in.

Trying to think of the nature of the cityscape travelling out from Euston to Watford, it's been a while now (pre-Covid, certainly). I seem to remember the inner bit being very densely populated with some tower blocks, then it opens out around Willesden and Wembley with wide sweeping views over NW London. Beyond Willesden/Wembley, through Harrow and towards Watford, it just looks like average suburbia similar to places like New Malden and Raynes Park.

Oddly the really dodgy areas (Stonebridge Park and Harlesden) do not seem to correspond to the areas I perceived as perhaps most risky from the general look of the area (the inner bit, between Willesden and Euston).

Having said all this, the DC lines didn’t have a monopoly on all this. The Bexleyheath line for example served a notorious estate at Kidbrooke (also now gone), I’d imagine this gave trouble at times too.

This thread is very good for learning the dangerous areas of London!

I've not been to Kidbrooke but I have been to Blackheath (by train), to visit people, and wandered round the Blackheath area quite a bit, which for the most part seemed very nice and not at all dangerous. Would be interesting to hear exactly where this estate was. When wandering round Blackheath I got as far as the A2, probably not too far from Kidbrooke station; I think I mostly was in the area formed by the triangle of the two railway lines and the A2, plus central Blackheath itself.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Feb 2023 ==

Like much of London, problem areas could be very localised. I think it was the case that this section of line just seemed to run right through a string of such localities.

Certainly the likes of Stonebridge Park and Harlesden have featured variously as gun crime capitals of Britain at times, and I seem to remember at one point Harlesden was regarded as the most dangerous place in the whole UK. It does seem a bit better now, though probably still an area to be wary of.

It’s quite strange really as the area has always had pretty good transport links, so how it ended up being such a ghetto isn’t entirely clear. Perhaps an element of Brent putting all their problem people in one area?




Willesden Junction wasn’t quite such an issue as there tended to be plenty of people about, both people changing trains, and staff. As ChiefPlanner says, the biggest risk was on board lightly loaded Bakerloo Line trains. These were essentially left to their own devices, no security measures at all.

Ah OK. Thinking about it I think I would have used the Bakerloo Line to get there, as I was coming from Victoria and it was the obvious route. I am fairly sure it was an Underground train anyway. But looking at the map I wouldn't have gone to Stonebridge Park or Harlesden, and it was presumably busy as it was rush hour.

That said, I never registered either Stonebridge Park or Harlesden as risky areas until I read this thread; for whatever reason they don't seem to have achieved the notoriety in the media of some other high-crime urban areas.

It's a good job I didn't abandon Willesden and then move on to Stonebridge Park in the hope of a better view!

If you found Willesden Junction bad, you’d have found the likes of Kensal Green, Harlesden and Stonebridge Park worse!

The station itself probably wasn't too bad, but as I wanted to observe the WCML I was a little way away from the platforms. I have a memory of being on a bridge over the WCML (which the station did not serve) and that felt a little bit isolated - and there was no point hanging around anyway as you couldn't see anything due to some annoyingly high walls. I remember hearing WCML expresses whizz by without being able to catch a glimpse of them.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Were these tall tower blocks? I do seem to remember there being some in that area, somewhere round Willesden, perhaps a bit further in.

Trying to think of the nature of the cityscape travelling out from Euston to Watford, it's been a while now (pre-Covid, certainly). I seem to remember the inner bit being very densely populated with some tower blocks, then it opens out around Willesden and Wembley with wide sweeping views over NW London. Beyond Willesden/Wembley, through Harrow and towards Watford, it just looks like average suburbia similar to places like New Malden and Raynes Park.

Oddly the really dodgy areas (Stonebridge Park and Harlesden) do not seem to correspond to the areas I perceived as perhaps most risky from the general look of the area (the inner bit, between Willesden and Euston).


This thread is very good for learning the dangerous areas of London!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Feb 2023 ==


Ah OK. Thinking about it I think I would have used the Bakerloo Line to get there, as I was coming from Victoria and it was the obvious route. I am fairly sure it was an Underground train anyway. But looking at the map I wouldn't have gone to Stonebridge Park or Harlesden, and it was presumably busy as it was rush hour.

That said, I never registered either Stonebridge Park or Harlesden as risky areas until I read this thread; for whatever reason they don't seem to have achieved the notoriety in the media of some other high-crime urban areas.

It's a good job I didn't abandon Willesden and then move on to Stonebridge Park in the hope of a better view!

The station itself probably wasn't too bad, but as I wanted to observe the WCML I was a little way away from the platforms. I have a memory of being on a bridge over the WCML (which the station did not serve) and that felt a little bit isolated - and there was no point hanging around anyway as you couldn't see anything due to some annoyingly high walls. I remember hearing WCML expresses whizz by without being able to catch a glimpse of them.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Feb 2023 ==

Many of these areas are now "much improved" - Willesden Jct was never particularly bad , especially as it was quite busy and there were train crew reliefs and supervisors around. As is often the case , the immediate streets around could be more dangerous. There was a footpath alongside the eastbound North Woolwich line where muggings could be observed from passing trains. Ditto (and to this day) - never chance the alley/footpath linking West End Lane to the Finchley Road (a seemingly short cut between the areas - best walk down the proper , lit streets. I mentioned before that in otherwise leafy Herts , Carpenders Park station had issues. Now staffed and barriered , a much better place.

Railways are victims of society and environment - the Greater London Council for their own reasons , planted social housing estates in the middle of otherwise typical suburban housing areas (your traditional red tiled semi detached and sometimes better) - I mentioned Chalk Hill (Wembley) , Kidbrook , Greenford etc , maybe they had wonderful ideas and hopes on "diversity and population mix" - the result being the creation of almost no-go areas which after several decades were cleared and replaced with more human scale housing. The unsympathetic rebuilding of Wembley Central station created a gloomy cave on the DC platforms and the once no doubt much vaunted Station Square became a drug dealers patch, - the building of Brent Cross Shopping Centre (the first in London !) , destroyed the local shopping streets which suffered badly as a result.

Being by training a Geography graduate (x 2) , I found all this very interesting , and though it was very hard work , largely enjoyable.

Anyway - Willesden Jct is now transformed and there is a decent looking coffee shop upstairs. Go again and get your fix of the 72TS , the busy TMD and of course a wide range of traffics on the WCML.

(wondering whether there ought to be a thread on memories of the North London and Gospel Oak - Barking lines ?)

 

[nw1]

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Feb 2023 ==

Many of these areas are now "much improved" - Willesden Jct was never particularly bad , especially as it was quite busy and there were train crew reliefs and supervisors around. As is often the case , the immediate streets around could be more dangerous. There was a footpath alongside the eastbound North Woolwich line where muggings could be observed from passing trains. Ditto (and to this day) - never chance the alley/footpath linking West End Lane to the Finchley Road (a seemingly short cut between the areas - best walk down the proper , lit streets. I mentioned before that in otherwise leafy Herts , Carpenders Park station had issues. Now staffed and barriered , a much better place.

Railways are victims of society and environment - the Greater London Council for their own reasons , planted social housing estates in the middle of otherwise typical suburban housing areas (your traditional red tiled semi detached and sometimes better) - I mentioned Chalk Hill (Wembley) , Kidbrook , Greenford etc , maybe they had wonderful ideas and hopes on "diversity and population mix" - the result being the creation of almost no-go areas which after several decades were cleared and replaced with more human scale housing. The unsympathetic rebuilding of Wembley Central station created a gloomy cave on the DC platforms and the once no doubt much vaunted Station Square became a drug dealers patch, - the building of Brent Cross Shopping Centre (the first in London !) , destroyed the local shopping streets which suffered badly as a result.

Being by training a Geography graduate (x 2) , I found all this very interesting , and though it was very hard work , largely enjoyable.

Anyway - Willesden Jct is now transformed and there is a decent looking coffee shop upstairs. Go again and get your fix of the 72TS , the busy TMD and of course a wide range of traffics on the WCML.

(wondering whether there ought to be a thread on memories of the North London and Gospel Oak - Barking lines ?)

Interesting.

I started reading the Wikipedia article on the Ferrier estate (Kidbrooke) and, if accurate (obviously with Wikipedia there is an "if" there), it does point out some of the problems of these regeneration schemes:

"Ferrier residents were given to believe that the scheme would be a rolling programme of redevelopment, and gave their approval. They were even encouraged to have input into the designs of the new homes. However, it became apparent soon after the first residents were removed that this was a fiction. As pressure mounted to reach deadlines, phased relocations were abandoned and residents all over the estate were moved as alternative properties became available. The result was pockets of isolation and fire escape routes through neighbouring flats being sealed off with steel doors. Vermin abounded as pigeons, rats and mice took up residence in neighbouring vacated homes. Eventually the Council, with the housing waiting lists doubling, resorted to court action to attempt to force residents to accept homes they regarded as unacceptable. The last tenants left in 2011, and it is estimated that about only 25% have the opportunity of returning to the new homes."

Obviously it's not good to have high-crime areas but it is unfortunate that "bad" (brutal, high-crime) estates cannot be replaced with liveable (pleasant/"nice"), but affordable, alternatives, together with schemes to help out the residents and offer them a better life, and deal with the crime problem ("tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime" may be a cliche but arguably it's the best approach) - I would imagine that most residents were perfectly law-abiding. From my interpretation of the above - if true - it appears that the replacement to the estate was unaffordable by its former residents, with rents presumably way too high, suggesting that gentrification does not stop the problems, it just moves them elsewhere. I realise this is going way OT!

 

[Egg Centric]

Ditto (and to this day) - never chance the alley/footpath linking West End Lane to the Finchley Road (a seemingly short cut between the areas - best walk down the proper , lit streets.

Ah, Billy Fury Way. Notorious enough to spur several articles.

 

[Wolfie]

Were these tall tower blocks? I do seem to remember there being some in that area, somewhere round Willesden, perhaps a bit further in.

Trying to think of the nature of the cityscape travelling out from Euston to Watford, it's been a while now (pre-Covid, certainly). I seem to remember the inner bit being very densely populated with some tower blocks, then it opens out around Willesden and Wembley with wide sweeping views over NW London. Beyond Willesden/Wembley, through Harrow and towards Watford, it just looks like average suburbia similar to places like New Malden and Raynes Park.

Oddly the really dodgy areas (Stonebridge Park and Harlesden) do not seem to correspond to the areas I perceived as perhaps most risky from the general look of the area (the inner bit, between Willesden and Euston).


This thread is very good for learning the dangerous areas of London!

I've not been to Kidbrooke but I have been to Blackheath (by train), to visit people, and wandered round the Blackheath area quite a bit, which for the most part seemed very nice and not at all dangerous. Would be interesting to hear exactly where this estate was. When wandering round Blackheath I got as far as the A2, probably not too far from Kidbrooke station; I think I mostly was in the area formed by the triangle of the two railway lines and the A2, plus central Blackheath itself.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Feb 2023 ==


Ah OK. Thinking about it I think I would have used the Bakerloo Line to get there, as I was coming from Victoria and it was the obvious route. I am fairly sure it was an Underground train anyway. But looking at the map I wouldn't have gone to Stonebridge Park or Harlesden, and it was presumably busy as it was rush hour.

That said, I never registered either Stonebridge Park or Harlesden as risky areas until I read this thread; for whatever reason they don't seem to have achieved the notoriety in the media of some other high-crime urban areas.

It's a good job I didn't abandon Willesden and then move on to Stonebridge Park in the hope of a better view!

The station itself probably wasn't too bad, but as I wanted to observe the WCML I was a little way away from the platforms. I have a memory of being on a bridge over the WCML (which the station did not serve) and that felt a little bit isolated - and there was no point hanging around anyway as you couldn't see anything due to some annoyingly high walls. I remember hearing WCML expresses whizz by without being able to catch a glimpse of them.

Living in North London l certainly heard about Stonebridge Park...

Gang wars made estate a no-go zone for police – until they found a supergrass

Key witness gave rare insight into organised crime that brought order to Brent's most notorious area

www.theguardian.com

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Feb 2023 ==

Interesting.

I started reading the Wikipedia article on the Ferrier estate (Kidbrooke) and, if accurate (obviously with Wikipedia there is an "if" there), it does point out some of the problems of these regeneration schemes:

"Ferrier residents were given to believe that the scheme would be a rolling programme of redevelopment, and gave their approval. They were even encouraged to have input into the designs of the new homes. However, it became apparent soon after the first residents were removed that this was a fiction. As pressure mounted to reach deadlines, phased relocations were abandoned and residents all over the estate were moved as alternative properties became available. The result was pockets of isolation and fire escape routes through neighbouring flats being sealed off with steel doors. Vermin abounded as pigeons, rats and mice took up residence in neighbouring vacated homes. Eventually the Council, with the housing waiting lists doubling, resorted to court action to attempt to force residents to accept homes they regarded as unacceptable. The last tenants left in 2011, and it is estimated that about only 25% have the opportunity of returning to the new homes."

Obviously it's not good to have high-crime areas but it is unfortunate that "bad" (brutal, high-crime) estates cannot be replaced with liveable (pleasant/"nice"), but affordable, alternatives, together with schemes to help out the residents and offer them a better life, and deal with the crime problem ("tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime" may be a cliche but arguably it's the best approach) - I would imagine that most residents were perfectly law-abiding. From my interpretation of the above - if true - it appears that the replacement to the estate was unaffordable by its former residents, with rents presumably way too high, suggesting that gentrification does not stop the problems, it just moves them elsewhere. I realise this is going way OT!

Read up on what happened at Elephant and Castle....

 

[Dave W]

(wondering whether there ought to be a thread on memories of the North London and Gospel Oak - Barking lines ?)

I should certainly be grateful for it! - I've shared in this section before I moved to London in 2012 (between the Olympics and Paralympics), and have, bar my first year in Finchley (N), spent all that time with the Goblin, and wider NLL, as my nearest and dearest; even in that decade, things have changed hugely in various areas. One associates Crouch Hill with the rather more leafy Crouch End confines on the far side of the hill for which it's named, but I found it and neighbouring Stroud Green rather intimidating in the early 2010s... Not so now!

As a loop back to the topic, I've also mentioned I spent the first year or so of my career at HMRC, doing field inspections for VAT. One of these sent me to a furniture company in Harlesden; the business I saw was fine, the business next door might as well have had "illegal" in neon lights - I wisely decided not to investigate further! But more than that, wearing my cheap TK Maxx suit and tie and the other characteristics I am bestowed with meant I stuck out like a sore thumb! Ditto on an occasion when I did a garage on an industrial estate in sight of the Mcvities factory! And to think around that period I used to go taking photographs all over the Goblin, NLL and DC Lines, with my not inexpensive Nikon in full view Oh to be that young and daft again!!!

 

[Doctor Fegg]

and of course the many pubs in the Kilburn area had certain issues.

You could say that. I lived there for a while in the 90s and there were certain pubs where you’d be guaranteed to find pro-IRA graffiti in the gents…

 

[stuu]

You could say that. I lived there for a while in the 90s and there were certain pubs where you’d be guaranteed to find pro-IRA graffiti in the gents…

In the gents! I went with someone who knew the area to an Irish pub where an old bloke came around with a collection bucket "for the cause". Maybe 1995

 

[Taunton]

The 2310 off the Junction was a nightmare train as it picked up a harvest of drunks and worse from Watford to Carpenters Park and again from Harrow , Harlesden etc. It was often out of service at Euston due to "carriage soiling" - discharged extinguishers etc - even plain clothes BTP were appalled the lawlessness. I discovered it was not in the service level commitment so I took it off asap.

When I first came to London the US-worldwide major high tech company I was with moved their HQ into the large twin curved office buildings in Stonebridge Park beside the line, in I think 1986. I never worked there, only visited, but we heard all the stories, it was an apparent nightmare, selected by US-based staff who knew nothing of Stonebridge's reputation - ironically the company was headquartered in inner city Detroit. Someone thought close to Heathrow was good enough, and I bet it was cheap. They progressively upped the security, they had one or two serious incidents, and in the end it was given up and they took a big loss. Never occupied since. Everyone seemed to go there by car, when the North Circular Road alongside was widened and they lost some car parking, and were told by the council to use public transport, that was it. Apparently it had been Brent council's biggest commercial rates property in its time. I always look at it, unlit, when passing on the WCML. Here:

The derelict building by the North Circular Road that everyone wonders about

The large building along the A406 North Circular Road has been empty since 1998

www.mylondon.news

Report - - Former Unisys Buildings, Brent - July 2009 | Other Sites

Many thanks to Liam_CH for showing us round the Unisys towers in Brent, showing us all the best places. Explored by Liam, Myself and my friend James, we arrived bright and early, (me already tired at 10:30am, navigating London’s many “WTF?!?!?â€

www.28dayslater.co.uk

 

[Lewlew]

When I first came to London the US-worldwide major high tech company I was with moved their HQ into the large twin curved office buildings in Stonebridge Park beside the line, in I think 1986. I never worked there, only visited, but we heard all the stories, it was an apparent nightmare, selected by US-based staff who knew nothing of Stonebridge's reputation - ironically the company was headquartered in inner city Detroit. Someone thought close to Heathrow was good enough, and I bet it was cheap. They progressively upped the security, they had one or two serious incidents, and in the end it was given up and they took a big loss. Never occupied since. Everyone seemed to go there by car, when the North Circular Road alongside was widened and they lost some car parking, and were told by the council to use public transport, that was it. Apparently it had been Brent council's biggest commercial rates property in its time. I always look at it, unlit, when passing on the WCML. Here:

There is a waste processing (from skips, appears to be mostly scrap metal) outfit that has been using the grounds for a while and have expanded their operations a fair bit in recent years. The site has also been used for parking for some events in the area (mosque?).

 

[ChiefPlanner]

When I first came to London the US-worldwide major high tech company I was with moved their HQ into the large twin curved office buildings in Stonebridge Park beside the line, in I think 1986. I never worked there, only visited, but we heard all the stories, it was an apparent nightmare, selected by US-based staff who knew nothing of Stonebridge's reputation - ironically the company was headquartered in inner city Detroit. Someone thought close to Heathrow was good enough, and I bet it was cheap. They progressively upped the security, they had one or two serious incidents, and in the end it was given up and they took a big loss. Never occupied since. Everyone seemed to go there by car, when the North Circular Road alongside was widened and they lost some car parking, and were told by the council to use public transport, that was it. Apparently it had been Brent council's biggest commercial rates property in its time. I always look at it, unlit, when passing on the WCML. Here:

Very interesting and thank you. Inspired by this thread I took a trip down memory lane on Wednesday - a very fast Met to Harrow on the Hill and walked across the center (noting the many changes and not for the better) and down the DC , done properly on a 72TS.

The ride south of Wembley Central is like a cresta run - rough as anything , and well up for renewal which is imminent. Forgotten the pleasure of going though the car sheds at Queens Park which must be unique. Bearing in mind previous off peak dialogue on the "dangers" of the Bakerloo , I sat in the front car not far off the Train Operator.

Those buildings Taunton , look like on the verge of demolition. (much like a lot of the Cricklewood - Brent Cross area , as part of the regeneration of the area)

 

[Belmont Circle]

The maximum line speed limit is now 50mph. Was it ever faster than this?
Did class 501s ever run at near their 70mph limit anywhere?