Euston-Watford/North London DC Lines before London Overground

[ChiefPlanner]

Mod note: split from

Shenfield Metro before TfL Rail

I am fascinated by the operation of the "Shenfield Metro" Shenfield - Liverpool Street service (now extended to Paddington and becomes part of Elizabeth line). It is now basically a tube line in all but name, with the 9-car 345 trains all crush-loaded in peak hours running every 4 to 5 minutes...

www.railforums.co.uk

Didn't the DC lines have express services up until the 90s?

Not in my day , and I operated it from 1996 to 1999 (and pulled round both performance and "ambience" , cos it seemed no one else had paid it any attention for too long. I digress.

The DC had some interesting "skip-stop" patterns in I think , the 1920 - 1930 era, such that the lesser stations were passed - certainly South Kenton and probably Stonebridge Park.

It is crying out for a really detailed book on the fascinating history , but more so on the operating and social implications at various times. Never been done. The LMS resignalling was quite superb in giving both the capacity and the "way ahead" guidance to the LMS and LT "motormen" (as they were in those days) - 18 tph in the heyday , protected of course by tripcocks ! - and the capacity signalling of those days extended beyond Harrow to Watford (the replacement signalling , was very much dumbed down in the 1980's partly due to cost constraints , so minimal it was)

What did for the DC was the WCML electrification which gave a huge step change to the frequency at places like Harrow and Watford (limited extent to Bushey) , and population changes in the 1930's suburbs north of Wembley which saw the bright and keen residents of the areas , retire and stop commuting , but they largely (I think) stayed in the area , but their offspring moved away , or further down the line to greener places. Very much in decline from the 1960's onwards and probably reached rock bottom by say 1980. For too long , it was characterized by not very clean trains , vandalized interiors far worse than you would see now (not just slashed seats , but booted in ceiling panels) , and a perception of "not safe" (whereas the Met line in the area was deemed "safe")

It has bounced back a bit - transformed even.

(I think the Shenfield line population - though changed over the years - has kept the volume up over the years , which the DC did not , and of course the Crossrail effect has greatly assisted)

Comments welcome.

 

[Springs Branch]

Didn't the DC lines have express services up until the 90s?

The DC had some interesting "skip-stop" patterns in I think , the 1920 - 1930 era, such that the lesser stations were passed - certainly South Kenton and probably Stonebridge Park.

For pretty much the past five decades it has been all-trains-all-stops along the Watford DC line proper, although I think the Broad Streets routinely missed a good handful of intermediate stations whilst they were on the North London Line.

The older ways seemed to have been resurrected sometime in the mid-1960s, when a very small handful of peak hour Broad Streets skipped some of the quietest stations - South Kenton, Stonebridge Park and Kensal Green (as intimated by @ChiefPlanner). These odd stops were missed seemingly on a random basis; you certainly wouldn't describe these variations as "expresses".
Table 52 in the LMR 1965 timetable on the Timetable World website shows the details of these.

I've attached a couple of scans of peak hours from the 1960 timetable for info - from an era when the Class 501s were new and shiny and probably all the fleet was needed out in service on weekdays.

I know this is OT for a Shenfield thread - my excuse is I'm comparing and contrasting ways intensive services were worked between GEML and Watford DC!

Notice the 2 - 3 minute headways (but no repeating cycles like the GEML) and the tube going through to Watford Junction - I've underlined Wembley Central (as a random example) to help illustrate. It feels like ancient history now, but I suppose a 17-year-old lad commuting from South Kenton to his job as a junior clerk in the City would be 80 years old now, so may still remember those days.

It is crying out for a really detailed book on the fascinating history , but more so on the operating and social implications at various times. Never been done. The LMS resignalling was quite superb . . .

Yes, I'll be at the front of the queue for my copy if/when one appears.

As a non-local, it's hard for me to explain my particular interest in the Watford DC route. Certainly, on board a southbound Inter-City, my first sight of one of Eastleigh's finest trundling alongside the main lines was always a sign we were now in (Greater) London. (London proper was when I spotted both the first red tube train and a Routemaster bus, inevitably when passing Queen's Park). And all that intriguing bespoke ironmongery associated with the signals along the line.

 

[30907]

It looks as if the skip-stopping in the morning peak allowed a couple of extras (note the Bushey starter!) to be squeezed into the timetable without a full rewrite.

 

[Springs Branch]

The LMS resignalling was quite superb in giving both the capacity and the "way ahead" guidance to the LMS and LT "motormen" (as they were in those days) - 18 tph in the heyday , protected of course by tripcocks ! - and the capacity signalling of those days extended beyond Harrow to Watford (the replacement signalling , was very much dumbed down in the 1980's partly due to cost constraints , so minimal it was)

The searchlight signals on the DC lines were certainly intriguing.

Back in the day I usually observed these signals while zipping past in a Mk.2 on the fast lines; they always seemed very closely spaced along the route and, in the absence of easy research via the internet, I had assumed they were just some above-ground versions of London Transport Underground signalling on account of Bakerloo trains going all the way to Watford Junction at the time.

Plausible as this theory might have been on the automatically-signalled plain, open line, there were a couple of places near junctions and the like where the signal construction looked very peculiar. A three-pronged example at the end of the down platform at Bushey springs to mind.

The unusual and non-standard configurations came about because the New Lines signalling was installed in 1932 (around the same time the LMS was dabbling with its speed signalling scheme at Mirfield), and before use of route indicators became standard British practice for colour light signalling - meaning each diverging route had its own signal head.

This meant in some locations, under some conditions, a signal might display nearly as many coloured lights as a Christmas Tree.

Nowadays websites such as LMSR "New Lines" signalling give easy access to a full explanation and diagrams of what it was all about:-

History
The LMSR "New Lines" signalling system was introduced in 1932-3. Despite the name, it was actually found on two separate suburban lines in the London area. Both were owned by the LMSR, both were used by London Underground trains, and both saw an intensive service as a result.

The first such line runs from Camden to Watford Junction. In 1912-3 the LNWR (one of the LMSR's precursor) opened a third pair of tracks (hence the "New Lines") over this section to keep suburban services separate from the busy long-distance lines. For most of the length they paralleled the main line, but between Bushey and Watford Junction they swung to the west to serve Watford High Street. Between 1915 and 1917 the lines were electrified on the four rail system and the London Underground Bakerloo Line was extended on to it.

Principles of operation
The basic characteristics of the signalling system were:

- the line was track-circuited throughout, so signals could be made automatic on plain line;
- all stop signals had train stops;
- trains were mostly electrical multiple units with good brakes, so braking distances could be short (other trains were severely restricted in speed);
- the intensive service meant that it was necessary to handle failures (particularly of track circuits) efficiently.

On plain track there were two kinds of signals: stop signals and repeaters, with a repeater at braking distance before each stop signal. A stop signal showed green if the line was clear to the end of the overlap of the next signal (a section of track, typically 183 metres long, following the signal), and red otherwise. In the latter case, a second red light was shown below the first to indicate that it was a stop signal.

When the stop signal was green the corresponding repeater was green, while when it was red the repeater was yellow. However, if there was a train between the repeater and the end of the overlap of its corresponding stop signal, the repeater showed red. To make it clear that it was a repeater (although trains should not normally be coming across these signals, because the previous stop signal would still be red) this also had a second red light below the main signal, but this time offset to the left. The second red light, in both cases, was called the "marker light"

So it turns out it wasn't just Tube Train-style pneumatic tripcocks and signalling transposed to the open air.

The book Two Centuries of Railway Signalling by G. Kichenside & A. Williams devotes a good three or more pages to the DC Lines ecosystem, with signal aspect diagrams and lineside photos.

This book includes an account of an author's personal observations (from an unspecified period) when the "Stop, then Proceed with Caution" rule on authority of the Calling On light had apparently become diluted over time. Some motormen allegedly took off again rather smartly as soon as the tripcock had dropped - effectively "Stop, then Proceed without much Caution", and a particularly dodgy way of working during thick fog.

There were several collisions in the 1960s involving BR units running into the back of Bakerloo trains. For example this one at Watford. Presumably when peak-hour frequencies fell off from the 1970s onwards, there would have been fewer instances of trains catching up with the one in front and less potential for mishaps.

 

[ScottGallagher]

I actually travelled on this line for the first and last time to Wembley from Euston a couple of months ago, thankfully without incident but I much preferred getting the tube home from Wembley Park.

 

[Taunton]

I think the DC line was my first ever experience of an electric train, albeit a Bakerloo one. We had relatives living near Wembley Central, and would come into Paddington and go on from there. There were still trolleybuses at Wembley, so someone can date this; not the first seen, because they could be seen from the train at Reading as well. Lesser-informed grandparents called them "trams".

I recall returning one late afternoon, coming down onto Wembley Central platform just as the Up Royal Scot stormed through with a Duchess on the fast lines. Never seen a red loco before, and more memorable the gangway cover on the back of the rear coach had Royal Scot emblazoned on it. We had been given explicit train instructions about which return train to take, which were emphasised as "red train" and "green train", the latter also being called locally the Overground, to distinguish from the red Underground, even then, 50 years before the official branding.

I've written various notes over time about watching the North London 3rd rail extended from Stratford to North Woolwich, this eastern end handled very few passengers and was always the first part to be given up in any shortages. Somehow the DLR lines that later replaced it now seem to carry 100 times more passengers. The initial Southern 2-EPB units were in turn changed over to spare 313 trains, in the worst livery imaginable, purple and lime green. I think this was in @ChiefPlanner 's time. I wonder if the graphic artist who devised it is feeling better yet ...

 

[bramling]

Mod note: split from

Shenfield Metro before TfL Rail

I am fascinated by the operation of the "Shenfield Metro" Shenfield - Liverpool Street service (now extended to Paddington and becomes part of Elizabeth line). It is now basically a tube line in all but name, with the 9-car 345 trains all crush-loaded in peak hours running every 4 to 5 minutes...

www.railforums.co.uk

Not in my day , and I operated it from 1996 to 1999 (and pulled round both performance and "ambience" , cos it seemed no one else had paid it any attention for too long. I digress.

The DC had some interesting "skip-stop" patterns in I think , the 1920 - 1930 era, such that the lesser stations were passed - certainly South Kenton and probably Stonebridge Park.

It is crying out for a really detailed book on the fascinating history , but more so on the operating and social implications at various times. Never been done. The LMS resignalling was quite superb in giving both the capacity and the "way ahead" guidance to the LMS and LT "motormen" (as they were in those days) - 18 tph in the heyday , protected of course by tripcocks ! - and the capacity signalling of those days extended beyond Harrow to Watford (the replacement signalling , was very much dumbed down in the 1980's partly due to cost constraints , so minimal it was)

What did for the DC was the WCML electrification which gave a huge step change to the frequency at places like Harrow and Watford (limited extent to Bushey) , and population changes in the 1930's suburbs north of Wembley which saw the bright and keen residents of the areas , retire and stop commuting , but they largely (I think) stayed in the area , but their offspring moved away , or further down the line to greener places. Very much in decline from the 1960's onwards and probably reached rock bottom by say 1980. For too long , it was characterized by not very clean trains , vandalized interiors far worse than you would see now (not just slashed seats , but booted in ceiling panels) , and a perception of "not safe" (whereas the Met line in the area was deemed "safe")

It has bounced back a bit - transformed even.

(I think the Shenfield line population - though changed over the years - has kept the volume up over the years , which the DC did not , and of course the Crossrail effect has greatly assisted)

Comments welcome.

From a security perspective the problem has always been the Kilburn High Road to Wembley Central section, which has simply been unfortunate in serving what was during the 80s and 90s a *very* rough part of London. The atmosphere on this section at night was absolutely horrendous.

I don’t really blame Silverlink nor North London Railways for this, as the stations were no different to comparable stations elsewhere in London, just the comparable stations elsewhere weren’t unfortunate enough to have disaster zones like the Stonebridge or Carlton Vale estates on the doorstep.

Aside from that, my recollection is that the 313 trundled up and down every 20 minutes generally fairly predictably without too much fuss. The Bakerloo service was more erratic, indeed it has never really been great that a relatively infrequent service north of Harrow has to mesh in with a more intensive service south of Queen’s Park, plus the Bakerloo is well known for being more difficult to control than one might outwardly think thanks to the lack of options available to the control staff for putting things back on timetable.

I haven’t been up that way for ages so others will have to comment on how the most recent timetable works in practice and compares to the past. However the in-town section of the Bakerloo seems to function quite smoothly nowadays so something seems to be working well.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

Lived in Queen’s Park 1987-89. Bakerloo Line was my preference but used the DC lines regularly from Euston. Never busy and almost always possible to get a seat at Queen‘s Park even off a through Bakerloo train.

On the signalling front I recall a board at Queen‘s Park advising drivers to telephone the signaller immediately on being stopped at a red. This was post resignalling- am I right that the new signals took a long time to settle down?

 

[Ken H]

The DC lines were a joint venture between LNWR and London Underground group. They got some special trains, the Watford Joint Stock, better configured for the longer journey. To compete with the rival Metropolitan Railway perhaps?
The 'New Lines' were not an electrification. They were built as an electric railway from new.

 

[magpiespy]

I lived in Kensal Green 1998-2000. On first moving there, I needed to catch the 0651 from Kings Cross to Royston every weekday, so I used the DC lines to Euston and then walked to Kings Cross. The 0606 southbound from Kensal Green was very reliable, in a way. It always turned up around 6 minutes late, to the extent that I got into the habit of arriving at 0610 and, as far as I can recall, never missed it. There was no departure information at the station in those days, but it was easy to tell if the DC line train was due, as the signal at the end of the platform was green. A yellow signal indicated that a Bakerloo line train was next.

 

[sk688]

For too long , it was characterized by not very clean trains , vandalized interiors far worse than you would see now (not just slashed seats , but booted in ceiling panels) , and a perception of "not safe" (whereas the Met line in the area was deemed "safe")

It has bounced back a bit - transformed even.

While I agree that the presentation of the line is far better than what it was, there is still unfortunately a perception , at least on the northern half of the line, that the Met line is deemed safer. As someone who grew up in Hatch End , I found most of my friends in the area would prefer the walk to Pinner and catching the Met , as compared to using the line from Hatch End , and this was under LO !

 

[R Martin]

I remember that line in the early 1960's The 501's were called "57 stock" and worked the Watford Junction Euston service, while the order Oricon(Yes I don't know the spelling!) did the Harrow to Broad Street service. The older stock didn't last long and were eventually stored at Crocksly Green.

 

[TrenHotel]

The murder of a young lawyer near the unstaffed Kensal Green station in 2006 seems to have been a factor in the line getting first train-to-last staffing when London Overground was created the following year.

BBC NEWS | England | London | Night staff for unmanned stations

 

[Lewlew]

The murder of a young lawyer near the unstaffed Kensal Green station in 2006 seems to have been a factor in the line getting first train-to-last staffing when London Overground was created the following year.

BBC NEWS | England | London | Night staff for unmanned stations

Although Kensal Green (and the other Bakerloo stations except Willesden Junction) is now staffed by London Underground and can and does get left unattended.

 

[TrenHotel]

Although Kensal Green (and the other Bakerloo stations except Willesden Junction) is now staffed by London Underground and can and does get left unattended.

Of course - I'd forgotten that it was the Underground that took charge of those stations when Silverlink ended. Shame to hear they are now left unattended once again.

Safety boost as London Underground takes full control of 14 Silverlink stations

These stations are set for huge improvements after their recent transfer to London Underground (LU) control.The move, which took place on 11 November, means that these previously neglected stations, now served by both LU and London Overground trains,

tfl.gov.uk

 

[eastwestdivide]

Oricon

Oerlikon I think - after the Swiss electricals

See

LNWR electric units - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Oerlikon Electric Trains

18 stations from Watford to Euston

www.ouroxhey.org.uk

Oerlikon 28249

Former Euston to Watford DC lines Oerlikon driving car 28249 at the NRM, York. Mon 28.11.2016. (2)

www.flickr.com

 

[Ken H]

And the Watford Joint Stock

London Underground Watford Joint Stock - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Some pix at the bottom of the Wiki entry

 

[racyrich]

I remember that line in the early 1960's The 501's were called "57 stock"

Made in 1957. 57 units, with 57ft coaches.

Heinz would have been proud

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I've written various notes over time about watching the North London 3rd rail extended from Stratford to North Woolwich, this eastern end handled very few passengers and was always the first part to be given up in any shortages. Somehow the DLR lines that later replaced it now seem to carry 100 times more passengers. The initial Southern 2-EPB units were in turn changed over to spare 313 trains, in the worst livery imaginable, purple and lime green. I think this was in @ChiefPlanner 's time. I wonder if the graphic artist who devised it is feeling better yet

Remember the diversion from Broad St to Stratford and beyond was , a strategic move at the time - a bit basic certainly , but it did help the revitalisation of that area bit by bit. When it was 4 tph Stratford to Richmond , the Woolwich section dropped to 2 tph. (Frankly , that section was a bit light , the real action was towards Richmond from Stratford)

The 313's in part ended up on the DC to allow the closure of the depot at Croxley Green , one the 501's had gone for scrap , and as there were not enough 313's (cascaded from the GN inners and elsewhere) , the Selhurst 2-EPB's filled the gap. Not very well , as one less car and older and not well maintained sets.

Once the full quota of 313's were available , the EPB's were got rid of. Amazingly some went to Slade Green for the end of their days.

Anyway , come 1996 , and a daft new name , the 313's were up for a C6 and accordingly fresh paint. 313034 was the first one in that livery. Had it not been NX who won the franchise , the other contenders were Connex and Great Western , so they could have been either yellow and blue etc , or even (eventually First Group blue) , the failed MBO was aligned with whatever company ran the local red buses in North West London (Metroline) , so it could have been any colour. (I think green was favoured though)

 

[Taunton]

in the worst livery imaginable, purple and lime green. I think this was in @ChiefPlanner 's time.

How unfortunate that @ChiefPlanner 's logo here on RailUK Forums is purple, and @Taunton 's is lime green

the EPB's were got rid of. Amazingly some went to Slade Green for the end of their days.

If I am not mistaken I passed a onetime 2-EPB only a couple of hours ago just north of Stoke-on-Trent, in a siding, 40 years on. Presumably a works unit - but I was surprised to see ir.

 

[randyrippley]

I remember that line in the early 1960's The 501's were called "57 stock" and worked the Watford Junction Euston service, while the order Oricon(Yes I don't know the spelling!) did the Harrow to Broad Street service. The older stock didn't last long and were eventually stored at Crocksly Green.

Oerlikon ?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Oerlikon ?

Yes - I wanted a 313 named that to celebrate in 1997 a significant birthday for the DC - but not allowed.

In a previous job , under great security I had to arrange a "caravan" of precious vehicles from York to Swindon , a few Royal vehicles and so on , plus the NRM owned Oerlikon vehicle , so being keen etc , I went to York and assessed the train before it left. (47375 for the record) , I had to arrange almost on departure that the shoegear was still on and not "strapped up" , so we got the fitters to do it safely.

The other memorable thing about that evening I was not liked by the accompanying BT police dog, who decided I was a risk and had not the handler been well on the case , I suspect a bite was narrowly avoided. So I rode the caravan to York and got dropped off in the platfrom , and got the last IC back to London and the last Northern line back to South Wimbledon for home. A long day.

 

[stuu]

While I agree that the presentation of the line is far better than what it was, there is still unfortunately a perception , at least on the northern half of the line, that the Met line is deemed safer. As someone who grew up in Hatch End , I found most of my friends in the area would prefer the walk to Pinner and catching the Met , as compared to using the line from Hatch End , and this was under LO !

Hatch End aside, the places the DC line goes are mostly a bit more run down and prone to anti-social behaviour and shady characters than the Met. I suspect the difference in quality of the two services is an important factor in why that has come about

 

[Taunton]

Remember the diversion from Broad St to Stratford and beyond was , a strategic move at the time - a bit basic certainly , but it did help the revitalisation of that area bit by bit. When it was 4 tph Stratford to Richmond , the Woolwich section dropped to 2 tph. (Frankly , that section was a bit light , the real action was towards Richmond from Stratford)

My local interest is in that bit. Did it have any substation, or was it fed fully from Stratford just along the conductor rail? Beyond Custom House the last part was single track for the electric line (the other track, through the tunnel under the Royal Docks, was retained as a long siding). I seem to recall that one timetable at least, in peak periods when the service was enhanced, half the trains were turned at Custom House.

If you thought patronage there was a "bit" light, you should have seen it just a couple of hours ago today, with big crowds at Custom House leaving Excel, and both the Elizabeth and DLR completely mobbed!

 

[etr221]

I remember that line in the early 1960's The 501's were called "57 stock" and worked the Watford Junction Euston service, while the order Oricon(Yes I don't know the spelling!) did the Harrow to Broad Street service. The older stock didn't last long and were eventually stored at Crocksly Green.

The Oerlikon (LNWR built) stock - open with end doors - all went (AIUI - just before my time) very quickly after the 501s arrived. The 'older' stock which survived into the 1960s (until services were reduced in the Beeching era) were the LMSR built MetroVick/MCW units of the late twenties, with compartments (similar stock was used on the Liverpool-Southport and Manchester-Altrincham lines - last were obviously for the 1500v OH system).

The DC lines were a joint venture between LNWR and London Underground group. They got some special trains, the Watford Joint Stock, better configured for the longer journey. To compete with the rival Metropolitan Railway perhaps?
The 'New Lines' were not an electrification. They were built as an electric railway from new.

The DC lines were originally an LNWR only scheme - which included a low-level terminal (loop?) under Euston station. The scheme was later changed to replace this with an extension of the LER Bakerloo Line to Queens Park, and through running (using the Watford Joint Stock) to Watford.

While the 'New Line' from Camden to Watford was always intended to be electric, when it was first opened (1912) it was steam worked: not until 1922 (and completion of the new juntion system) was electric operation through Camden (either from Broad Street or Euston) possible. But there were electric trains earlier, from Broad Street via Gospel Oak and Willesden Jn (1916-17) and the Bakerloo via Queens Park (1917).

What perhaps should be mentioned were the earlier bits of the electric scheme: from Willesden Junction HL over the West London to Kensington Addison Road (now Olympia), thence over the Metropolitan District to Earls couty or High Street Kensington (opened 1914, sevice withdrawn 1940); and Broad Street-RIchmond in 1916.

 

[Belmont Circle]

Were class 501s fitted with AWS?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Were class 501s fitted with AWS?

Almost certainly not - (the North London did not !) , but the DC had tripcock fitment south of Harrow and Wealdstone.

 

[Bald Rick]

Anyway , come 1996 , and a daft new name , the 313's were up for a C6 and accordingly fresh paint. 313034 was the first one in that livery.

Always thought you missed a trick by not painting them Silver.

 

[bramling]

Always thought you missed a trick by not painting them Silver.

Great minds thing alike!

I always wondered why the brand was Silverlink, yet had the rather odd green and purple colours. To be fair most of Silverlink worked reasonably well, what did it was the security issues on elements of the metro routes.

 

[etr221]

Almost certainly not - (the North London did not !) , but the DC had tripcock fitment south of Harrow and Wealdstone.

The LMSR signalling of 1932-33 did have tripcocks all the way to Watford. Were these removed (or should I say not reinstalled) north of Harrow (and at the south end) under the BR resignalling of the late 1980s?