UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

[jon0844]

The MG4 LR is already there at £28k

And later this year there's an extended range model coming with over 300 miles (there was talk of some crazy dual motor version but apparently that's on hold as the order list is already getting out of control).

Indeed MG has put the prices up a bit, just as Tesla has cut its pricing.

People are waking up to cheaper cars, even with slightly fewer toys.

I don't know the price of the ER/XR version but it they do a non Trophy spec model it's possible it will be comparable to the LR Trophy model in price - say £32/33k.

 

[The Ham]

If I was you, doing a regular longer journeys of 200 odd miles, I would simply wait till cars with an appropriate range were in my budget. That kind of range is easily achievable by many mid-top tier EVs today and it wont be long before family cars at the lower end of the market can also do this.

Although the Tesla Model S is a high spec car, it a good example of the advancement of EVs and technology.

Year, model, range
2016, 60d, 215 miles
2023, Dual motor, 350 miles

Both have the same basic body style (so no significant aerodynamic advances) and both weigh around the same (2.6t). The improvement in range is due to improvements such as larger batteries which are lighter per kilo and improved motor efficiency.

Agree, although again the point was that even those doing an infrquent trip with a car with a listed range of 200 miles could skip past Exeter services, so no need for 500 chargers.

 

[Noddy]

The MG4 LR is already there at £28k

Yeah the MG4 LR is definitely there or there abouts, but may not quite do 200 in very cold temps if driven at 70. The extended range should definitely do it, but I expect will be in the low 30s.

 

[david1212]

I understood that. That's why I'm surprised you mention Korean. South Korea is a stable democracy.

While stable now maybe wrongly I wonder about the long term ' interest ' of North Korea or even another country.

If you want to use Vauxhalls range calculator why don’t you do it for the much more popular e-Corsa?

I used the Mokka-e as slightly larger but using the Corsa-e range calculator only marginally changes the distances given at 60mph the quoted maximum at 60mph is 161 miles and at 70mph 130 miles. With the same 20 mile contingency and fast charging to 80% then 113 and 88 miles.
If Vauxhall add the same calculator for the Astra-e which is stated to be 54kWH capacity we will see if the range is around the same or significantly more.
If you can find comparable range calculators for other brands do post the results of a sample stating the battery capacity and using the same basis of 20 mile contingency and fast charging to 80%. This would show variations in energy use under the same conditions.

I have only considered cars. Both cars towing caravans and motorhomes will use significantly more energy per mile which has to be replenished be that relative to cars more frequent stops or occupying a charger for longer.

Along various sections of road the average total journey length of the vehicles will vary. For say the M6 Rugby to M54 or even Stoke-on-Trent and the M60 around Manchester I think is significantly different to the M5 other than the first few junctions and around Bristol. The results of a survey of the average journey length taken on between M5 Jns 21 and 22 in the summer and particularly Friday - Sunday would be interesting.

If before 2030 battery technology development does allow significantly faster charging without impacting battery life then yes for roadside charging stations fewer chargers needed but the required supply infrastructure remains the same i.e. 500 x 100kW and 250 x 200kW are both 50MW. For other places where people will leave cars for several hours either one high output charger has multiple connected cars and charges them in sequence or still more low power chargers.

Part of the solution to charger hogging will be a non-charging penalty and or a (much) higher charge for charging above, say, 85%.

That would work and at peak times required at roadside service / charging stations but not anywhere where cars will be left for several hours if not all day e.g. park and ride, tourist and leisure destinations, hotels etc.

Overall in 10 years it will be interesting to look back to this thread and see which posts are fundamentally correct and which are not.

 

[AM9]

That would work and at peak times required at roadside service / charging stations but not anywhere where cars will be left for several hours if not all day e.g. park and ride, tourist and leisure destinations, hotels etc.

Overall in 10 years it will be interesting to look back to this thread and see which posts are fundamentally correct and which are not.

It would if the charges 'guided' users to use lower power chargers more appropriate to the time that the vehicle would be preventing others from using them. Lower power, say 7kw chargers would be much easier to install in larger numbers, and apart from hotels/workplaces and other locations where users were likely to be present, e.g. those near residential areas, a significant proportion of users could be residents without charging facilities at home.

 

[The Ham]

It would if the charges 'guided' users to use lower power chargers more appropriate to the time that the vehicle would be preventing others from using them. Lower power, say 7kw chargers would be much easier to install in larger numbers, and apart from hotels/workplaces and other locations where users were likely to be present, e.g. those near residential areas, a significant proportion of users could be residents without charging facilities at home.

It could be that chargers could be smart.

For example, assuming 100 chargers in one location:

10 could charge at 150kw and a further 50 could charge at 70kw at any given time (any of the 100 could provide that charge) with the rest running at 7kw.

When someone arrives, if it's quiet, every car is offered a free 5 minute fast charge before dropping back to what they've paid for.

As demand for the very rapid speeds increase then the cost for using them ramps up to a maximum figure, as does the cost for the mid speed.

For a lot of people an extra 20 minutes at 7kw might be enough to get them where they are going (yes it's only 10 miles, but that could be that's needed to sure to get there).

Likewise if you've stopped and you're taking longer than 15 minutes the the rapid charger drops back to a slower speed allowing another user to benefit from the boost in charging rate without your car needing to be unplugged and moved.

Likewise when you turn up and another is using the rapid charger (but is due to finish in 5 minutes) then your car gains a few miles before the rapid charger kicks in.

If you know that you're going to be some time (for example staying overnight) then you don't pay for the boost in speeds, as you've be charged by the morning anyway.

 

[Noddy]

While stable now maybe wrongly I wonder about the long term ' interest ' of North Korea or even another country.




I used the Mokka-e as slightly larger but using the Corsa-e range calculator only marginally changes the distances given at 60mph the quoted maximum at 60mph is 161 miles and at 70mph 130 miles. With the same 20 mile contingency and fast charging to 80% then 113 and 88 miles.
If Vauxhall add the same calculator for the Astra-e which is stated to be 54kWH capacity we will see if the range is around the same or significantly more.
If you can find comparable range calculators for other brands do post the results of a sample stating the battery capacity and using the same basis of 20 mile contingency and fast charging to 80%. This would show variations in energy use under the same conditions.

I have only considered cars. Both cars towing caravans and motorhomes will use significantly more energy per mile which has to be replenished be that relative to cars more frequent stops or occupying a charger for longer.

Along various sections of road the average total journey length of the vehicles will vary. For say the M6 Rugby to M54 or even Stoke-on-Trent and the M60 around Manchester I think is significantly different to the M5 other than the first few junctions and around Bristol. The results of a survey of the average journey length taken on between M5 Jns 21 and 22 in the summer and particularly Friday - Sunday would be interesting.

If before 2030 battery technology development does allow significantly faster charging without impacting battery life then yes for roadside charging stations fewer chargers needed but the required supply infrastructure remains the same i.e. 500 x 100kW and 250 x 200kW are both 50MW. For other places where people will leave cars for several hours either one high output charger has multiple connected cars and charges them in sequence or still more low power chargers.


That would work and at peak times required at roadside service / charging stations but not anywhere where cars will be left for several hours if not all day e.g. park and ride, tourist and leisure destinations, hotels etc.

Overall in 10 years it will be interesting to look back to this thread and see which posts are fundamentally correct and which are not.

The issue I have with your calculations, including your 500 charging points at every service station every 15 miles, is that you are failing to recognise that

a) the ban full ban on petrol/diesel cars isn’t coming in until 2035, and there is no ban on second hand cars
b) you’re choosing a selection of converted ICE cars which are heavier, generally have poorer aerodynamics and are more space constrained because of this.
c) battery technology is rapidly improving, and now all car companies (pretty much) have accepted EVs are where we are heading the amount of investment in battery and motor technology is huge. Look at the range improvement for the Tesla Model S in 7 years-it’s over 60% (with no significant weight or aerodynamic changes).


Here are some other brands and websites range calculators:

Polestar 2 – Range and charging | Polestar UK

Learn more about the range of the single and dual motor versions of Polestar 2 and the intelligent features that make it go further on a single charge.

www.polestar.com

Electric Vehicles | How Far Can an EV Go? | Jaguar

https://www.motormatchup.com/efficiency (American but does Teslas)

But none of the calculators (inc Vauxhalls) are properly scientific.

 

[reddragon]

For real world range use - https://ev-database.uk/ It give you all the statistics you need in one place.

It could be that chargers could be smart.

For example, assuming 100 chargers in one location:

10 could charge at 150kw and a further 50 could charge at 70kw at any given time (any of the 100 could provide that charge) with the rest running at 7kw.

When someone arrives, if it's quiet, every car is offered a free 5 minute fast charge before dropping back to what they've paid for.

As demand for the very rapid speeds increase then the cost for using them ramps up to a maximum figure, as does the cost for the mid speed.

For a lot of people an extra 20 minutes at 7kw might be enough to get them where they are going (yes it's only 10 miles, but that could be that's needed to sure to get there).

Likewise if you've stopped and you're taking longer than 15 minutes the the rapid charger drops back to a slower speed allowing another user to benefit from the boost in charging rate without your car needing to be unplugged and moved.

Likewise when you turn up and another is using the rapid charger (but is due to finish in 5 minutes) then your car gains a few miles before the rapid charger kicks in.

If you know that you're going to be some time (for example staying overnight) then you don't pay for the boost in speeds, as you've be charged by the morning anyway.

That is generally how they already work, dependant on software installed, on site battery and usage.

 

[MotCO]

When my EV arrives, I will only ever have to use a motorway service station to recharge when travelling from Hertfordshire to Scotland. All other journeys I do (and I’m on the motorway at least twice a week), will be charged from home or someone else’s home.

That leads to an interesting social question. Given a full charge could easily cost £30 or more, I would assume that you would offer to pay for the electricity. But what about the skinflint who doesn't offer?

 

[Bletchleyite]

That leads to an interesting social question. Given a full charge could easily cost £30 or more, I would assume that you would offer to pay for the electricity. But what about the skinflint who doesn't offer?

That's certainly one of those etiquette issues that hasn't quite been resolved yet.

 

[Bald Rick]

That leads to an interesting social question. Given a full charge could easily cost £30 or more, I would assume that you would offer to pay for the electricity. But what about the skinflint who doesn't offer?

I certainly would. Well, for most people

I guess it’s similar as people who turn up for dinner without a bottle of wine. Pretty soon they don’t get asked back.

 

[Noddy]

That leads to an interesting social question. Given a full charge could easily cost £30 or more, I would assume that you would offer to pay for the electricity. But what about the skinflint who doesn't offer?

The answer to this is ‘smart’ charging. All new home chargers (since Summer 22 I believe) have to be smart enabled and ultimately someone will come up with a system where you can plug in any EV to any home charger, and rather than the owner of the charger being billed for the electricity used the car owner will. How long this will take to come on the market I don’t know!

 

[telstarbox]

Has anyone here got or tried out a VW ID3?

 

[trebor79]

Has anyone here got or tried out a VW ID3?

I test drove one last year. Nice car.

 

[telstarbox]

They look good! Tempted when second hand ones start coming through.

 

[Bald Rick]

Has anyone here got or tried out a VW ID3?

I know a couple of people with them. Both pensioners. Both love them, but I gather it is quite an, ahem, “steady” car and not particularly exciting. However they get good range out of them and have plenty of space apparently.

 

[Noddy]

Has anyone here got or tried out a VW ID3?

I have got no direct experience but from the reviews I’ve seen the car seems fine, but the software/infotainment side of things are generally very poorly reviewed (this applies to all VW IDs). To put it politely. It was a major contributor to VW CEO Herbert Diess being sacked last summer. From what I can tell it has extremely poorly laid out menus, is full of bugs, randomly crashes out completely and the over the air (OTA) updates still aren’t working. I believe the Cupra Born (VW family sibling) is marginally better to drive and the software isnt quite so bad so might be another option…

 

[reddragon]

Has anyone here got or tried out a VW ID3?

I did along with a dozen others. Bought the MG4 instead, better, 7y warranty and £10k cheaper.

 

[Roast Veg]

The answer to this is ‘smart’ charging. All new home chargers (since Summer 22 I believe) have to be smart enabled and ultimately someone will come up with a system where you can plug in any EV to any home charger, and rather than the owner of the charger being billed for the electricity used the car owner will. How long this will take to come on the market I don’t know!

Not really a priority right now in the charger software world. Vehicle to Grid is where the money is.

 

[reddragon]

Not really a priority right now in the charger software world. Vehicle to Grid is where the money is.

Smart charging was chosen by the experts as the top priority. It enables time of use setting and DNO control to get EVs charged during low demand and not peak demand, the biggest potential issue ahead.

V2G or V2H is very expensive to install requiring major changes to the fusebox, addition of a gateway and circuit changes.

 

[Roast Veg]

Smart charging was chosen by the experts as the top priority. It enables time of use setting and DNO control to get EVs charged during low demand and not peak demand, the biggest potential issue ahead.

V2G or V2H is very expensive to install requiring major changes to the fusebox, addition of a gateway and circuit changes.

I'm specifically quoting the "charge me for my use at someone else's home charger" feature described in the post. All other forms of "smart charging" are in play as you describe. Many new installations will support V2X from the outset (especially if they buy from us).

 

[trebor79]

I'm specifically quoting the "charge me for my use at someone else's home charger" feature described in the post. All other forms of "smart charging" are in play as you describe. Many new installations will support V2X from the outset (especially if they buy from us).

Fantasy. Non trivial due to the way domestic electricity is billed, and there's no 2 way coms between car and home charge point so it would be impossible for the charge point to know who's car was taking the power.

 

[AM9]

Smart charging was chosen by the experts as the top priority. It enables time of use setting and DNO control to get EVs charged during low demand and not peak demand, the biggest potential issue ahead.

V2G or V2H is very expensive to install requiring major changes to the fusebox, addition of a gateway and circuit changes.

Surely, V2H for grid-tied operation can be simple to effect through a single connection provided the charger has an inverter that can overlay an exporting a live supply, (just like all PV installations have). Then that feed on the consumer side would replace some or all of the draw from the grid through the meter. If the meter was a conventional smart meter, - as will eventually be the norm, it will be able to register an export flow to grid, therefore enabling V2G operation. It is only if off-grid power for the home is wanted that the necessary isolation hardware would be needed as with a PV istallation.
With a universally accepted protocol for charging operations present in the vehicle where the vehicle owner has an account, and the charger where the home occupiers has the account linked to the energy account, energy transfer to or from the vehicle, through the charger and thought the smart meter can be recorded and billed appropriately.

 

[Roast Veg]

Fantasy. Non trivial due to the way domestic electricity is billed, and there's no 2 way coms between car and home charge point so it would be impossible for the charge point to know who's car was taking the power.

There absolutely is 2 way communication between the two, it's called ISO15118. If it didn't exist I wouldn't have a job! Personal billing isn't on our radar though.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Feb 2023 ==

Surely, V2H for grid-tied operation can be simple to effect through a single connection provided the charger has an inverter that can overlay an exporting a live supply, (just like all PV installations have). Then that feed on the consumer side would replace some or all of the draw from the grid through the meter. If the meter was a conventional smart meter, - as will eventually be the norm, it will be able to register an export flow to grid, therefore enabling V2G operation. It is only if off-grid power for the home is wanted that the necessary isolation hardware would be needed as with a PV istallation.
With a universally accepted protocol for charging operations present in the vehicle where the vehicle owner has an account, and the charger where the home occupiers has the account linked to the energy account, energy transfer to or from the vehicle, through the charger and thought the smart meter can be recorded and billed appropriately.

Correct. The standards for communication and billing have taken years to finalise, but they exist.

 

[trebor79]

Surely, V2H for grid-tied operation can be simple to effect through a single connection provided the charger has an inverter that can overlay an exporting a live supply, (just like all PV installations have). Then that feed on the consumer side would replace some or all of the draw from the grid through the meter. If the meter was a conventional smart meter, - as will eventually be the norm, it will be able to register an export flow to grid, therefore enabling V2G operation. It is only if off-grid power for the home is wanted that the necessary isolation hardware would be needed as with a PV istallation.

No. The inverter is in the car. A home charge point supplies AC to the car.
The complications are around earthing, and not electrocuting linesmen fixing a fault during a power cut.

 

[Roast Veg]

No. The inverter is in the car. A home charge point supplies AC to the car.
The complications are around earthing, and not electrocuting linesmen fixing a fault during a power cut.

Not all home chargers are AC, there are some DC products internationally. During a power cut you'll get no return current as the charger won't be able to negotiate a connection to the grid.

 

[AM9]

No. The inverter is in the car. A home charge point supplies AC to the car.
The complications are around earthing, and not electrocuting linesmen fixing a fault during a power cut.

Then the charger would automatically isolate itself from the home supply in the event of a loss of ac from the grid, just as a grid-tied PV system does. In normal charging operation, the charger is tied to the local ground via the consumer unit, which is tied to the netral at the meter/co. fuse. If the incoming power had a fault, it would be no different to a normal domestic PV installation where devices just shut down, which in the case of the vehicle battery feeding power into the charger, would stop transferring and the vehicle would be a disconnected device (except for a ground connection to the premises installation).*
* presumably, none of the power connections through the charging plug/socket are connected to the vehicle chassis (other than the ground line).

 

[trebor79]

Then the charger would automatically isolate itself from the home supply in the event of a loss of ac from the grid, just as a grid-tied PV system does. In normal charging operation, the charger is tied to the local ground via the consumer unit, which is tied to the netral at the meter/co. fuse. If the incoming power had a fault, it would be no different to a normal domestic PV installation where devices just shut down, which in the case of the vehicle battery feeding power into the charger, would stop transferring and the vehicle would be a disconnected device (except for a ground connection to the premises installation).*
* presumably, none of the power connections through the charging plug/socket are connected to the vehicle chassis (other than the ground line).

Unless the property has a local earth (unusual theres days as the earth is usually tied to neutral in the meter cabinet) you cannot rely on the earth to provide protection in the event of a power cut.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Feb 2023 ==

Not all home chargers are AC, there are some DC products internationally. During a power cut you'll get no return current as the charger won't be able to negotiate a connection to the grid.

None in the UK. It would be pointless as 99% of homes aren't going to have suffice grid capacity to make it worthwhile.

 

[Roast Veg]

None in the UK. It would be pointless as 99% of homes aren't going to have suffice grid capacity to make it worthwhile.

Not publicly!

 

[AM9]

Unless the property has a local earth (unusual theres days as the earth is usually tied to neutral in the meter cabinet) you cannot rely on the earth to provide protection in the event of a power cut.

Unless there is an off grid capability,* the property would (normally) be just like a normal house withjout a charger of any PV kit, i.e. with a PME (protective multiple earth) system where all grounded parts of the site are connected and cross bonded ot the gas water and outer of the incoming cable. So if somebody has a 12V battery charger connected to an ICE vehicle and a suypply power cut occurs, there is no special provision to protect anybody touching the car body.
* I specifically made that clear in posts #1133 and post #1137