Which of the 5 park and ride car parks was that?
From posts by the EV fan boys here I thought that the vehicle was supposed to magically divert you to a working site.
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UK switching to electric vehicles discussion
- Thread starter MattA7
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From posts by the EV fan boys here I thought that the vehicle was supposed to magically divert you to a working site.
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R
RailUK Forums
Surely depends if the car has a connected navigation system or not, just like any car.
My petrol car will show fuel stations and live pricing for those stations, but not all cars will have this feature.
Plus, while I could search anytime it only shows me stations when I'm below 50 miles remaining and if planning a route, it doesn't plan stops as part of the itinerary and the fuel I have at the start and it predicts I'll have by the end.
Many EVs can do that, which is a very clever and useful feature.
In respect of Nissan Leafs i think it rather depends on what you consider becoming a real issue.
I had company provided Leafs with a claimed range of 167 miles. On a journey that included country lanes then 70 mph dual carriageway then the M25 the absolute max range at the legal speed limit was 90 miles. By 70000 miles (3 years) most of the company car fleet had lost 2 or 3 bars on the battery condition meter and the range had dropped to around 70 miles. Suitable for a run about to the shops or school perhaps.
Ive since retired but the company fleet is now by and large petrol with some Hyundai EVs.
Leafs don't have any thermal management of the battery and suffer badly from degradation as a result, especially if rapid charged. Almost all EV's now use liquid cooled batteries so that the battery does not reach damaging temperatures, and can be conditioned to charge at the highest possible speed.
I understand that, my post was to qualify Reddragon's post that Nissan Leafs don't suffer battery degradation till 200k miles. In my experience and my ex-employer's experience that's not really true for the reasons you detail.
I suspect the jury is still sitting on how well the battery cooling system will hold up after 5 or 10 years.
kevin_roche
Member
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It was Redbridge Park and Ride about 3 years ago. My car doesn't do that automatically and the location they suggested didn't have a Park and Ride Service so it wasn't suitable for my plan to go shopping.
reddragon
Established Member
It's like that old petrol station you went to that was closed but reopened since you were last there.
Redbridge P&R has 12 Tesla, 10 rapids and 20 fast chargers. Quite a hub!
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Well looked after LEAFs seemed to do around 200k. C&C Taxis in St Austell and a taxi company in Blackpool did this on LEAF 1 models with 24 & 30 kW battery. My 30kW LEAF lost 2% in 30,000 miles. My 40kW LEAF 2 lost 10% on a trip to Portugal due to repeat Rapid usage in 40C weather. It went at 22,000 miles. The moral of the story is how you use them and the LEAF wasn't suited to my usage or that of his company.
There are many old LEAFs out there that are quite fine, 80%+ battery health and they have been around since 2011. Yes some batteries are cooked to death as are some ICE engines revved or driven to death!
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kevin_roche
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Yes, I saw that on Zap Map but for some reason Zap Map does not show how much it costs and only shows the provider as 'Other'. That also puts me off as I have arrived in places showing similar in the past only to find them horrendously expensive or to require installation of a new phone app or unhelpful rules like a maximum 1 hour charging time which is completely useless if you are doing a shopping trip. I want to read the terms at home before I set out, not on a sign in the car park in the pouring rain. It does just illustrate the issue for people taking longer trips to places they don't normally visit. I have put off a few visits to the Oxford museums as a result. Perhaps I'll give it a test and find out who is responsible for those chargers. (I don't have a Tesla)
I am not questioning the build quality and reliability, after all KIA give a 7 year / 100,000 mile warranty which is more than parent company Hyundai with 5 years although unlimited mileage.
My concern is something political / miliary will shut off the supply of parts. Cars are so complex now that the days of Quinton Hazell etc being able to supply either the same parts as to the production line and dealer or a copy for almost anything not just routine items like filters and brake discs and pads have passed.
This is the point I made a while ago but did not have time to respond to specific posts.
While I'm sure there are 'paper' documents that outline the requirements right now there needs to be real plans for the required charging network and large construction to start imminently.
Just for cars and light vans most existing motorway service areas need ~500 150kW chargers. For both carriageways a new feed of 100 / 150MW. To receive this substations then distribution to the chargers. All the components and people to install are not going to drop out of the sky. Where the current gap is more than 15 miles new service areas are required. While for e.g. the M50 the sites can be smaller currently there is nothing. The A40 / A449 is effectively a continuation of the M50 to Newport.
Towns like Whitby need the car parks to at least have a shared 15kW charger for most spaces. Again a new feed as well as the installation.
On this housing estate are areas of communal parking for the flats and smallest houses. Added together 150 spaces maybe more. Every one does not need a charger but equally people can not be expected to move their cars around. Intelligent chargers would allow two cars to be connected and switch between them while maximising charging during off peak demand. If say 50 15kW chargers the combined supply required is 750kW / 0.75MW. That is going to need new infrastructure not forgetting that where there is private parking adjacent to the house cars will be charging too.
Across the country how many sites that need to be even 50% active by 2028 then 100% by 2035 ?
johncrossley
Established Member
I understood that. That's why I'm surprised you mention Korean. South Korea is a stable democracy.
How have you calculated that?
Yeah I would love to see the maths here. While many EVs today undoubtedly have ‘shorter’ ranges (100-200 miles) we are increasingly seeing cars such as the Hyundai Ionic 6, Mercedes EQS and Lightyear aimed at folk who want/need longer ranges (300+ mile). In another 12 years, when the full ICE ban comes in, there will be loads of cars capable of these kind of ranges. So I don’t understand why we’d need ‘500’ at services ‘every 15 miles’, especially given that many (most?) services don’t even have car parks that big!
Clearly in areas where most folk live in flats/terraced house with no drives there needs to be much more development of on street charging but that is happening, all be it at a slow pace.
Repeating extracts from my previous posts...
While most manufacturers will offer longer range models this comes with cost, space and weight penalties. I do not think the will be a big reduction in energy usage per mile so longer range cars still need to take on the same amount of charge i.e fewer charging stops but each is a longer time.
I think those who only occasionally make longer journeys will buy a standard range car and just accept the number of times they have to stop and charge plus the cost surcharge over home charging. But they will expect chargers to be available without queuing.
Before I have referenced the Vauxhall E-Mokka with a 50kWh battery solely because of the range simulator.
This gives 209 miles at 40mph, 186 miles at 50mph, 156 miles at 60 mph and 127 miles at 70mph.
These of course are the maximum. Allow 20 miles contingency plus fast charging to 80% then the latter two become 109 and 85 miles using just under 35kW.
If by 2030 the standard battery is 25% higher capacity then 142 and 111 miles.
Neither consider battery capacity reduction with ageing.
85 miles happens to be close to the distance from the M4/M5 interchange to Exeter. Hence most cars will need to stop to recharge. Consider a flow of 6000 cars per hour in each direction and 6 charging stations. At each charging station with 30 minute charger occupancy including connecting, paying and disconnecting 500 100kW fast chargers are required.
if everyone on the motorway drives a 50kwh car, at 70mph, allows 20miles contingency, and (crucially) is travelling more than the range of the car.
None of those things is true. It will be for some people, sure, but not most, not by any means.
When my EV arrives, I will only ever have to use a motorway service station to recharge when travelling from Hertfordshire to Scotland. All other journeys I do (and I’m on the motorway at least twice a week), will be charged from home or someone else’s home.
50KW is on the lower end for a midsize EV (quick glance at EV database) so isn't an unreasonable assumption. Longer range models are over 70kw though.
Which one you going for?
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
The OP asks how matters will be in the UK, but how would responses be to the same posed query in other European mainland countries?
From figures published in 2016, the proportion of car journeys over 25 miles is less than 5%, and the proportion of those over 50 miles is less than 2%. Given that both of those figures are well within the range of all but faulty EVs, a very small proportion of the cars on a busy motorway are likely be on the road for more than a couple of junctions.
That calculation above looks to me like it was designed to arrive at a ridiculously high number of charging stations are needed when the reality is somewhat different as it ignores that however busy the road is, most vehicles on motorways are not travelling from end to end.
Whilst I dont dispute what you say, Im always surprised by the number of EVs that are queueing to charge at the motorway services along the M25/6/20 corridor between Heathrow and the channel. I only normally go in on my motorbike but I have seen over 10 EVs queueing to charge at Cobham services on the M25 at 11pm. I think the demand may be much higher than anticipated at certain hotspots.
Charging up is easier in some European countries, in the Netherlands they identified the problems around payment for charging and having lots of different accounts and apps, so very early on, at least 10 years ago or more, they established a body to create common standards for the charging infrastructure to allow easy roaming across networks. For people charging up, this means that rather than needing lots of apps and RFIDs, it's possible to roam using a single charging account across all public chargers which makes the process far simpler. There's already bodies been established to expand roaming across multiple European countries.
By contrast here in the UK we are significantly behind, we don't have a nationwide roaming system, it isn't even possible to roam in a typical town or county. The
UK EV driver needs about 10 different apps and as many accounts, plus a load of ad-hoc transactions through flakey websites. The UK's approach is far from good.
Unfortunately if you'd written:
By contrast here in the UK we are significantly behind. The UK's approach is far from good.
It would have been nearly impossible to know what of the multiple things that this could have been written about it would have been talking about.
This is the exact opposite of what is happening. Hyundai’s Ionic 5 has two battery pack sizes. The larger battery size is massively outselling the smaller one, to the point that the just released Ionic 6 (built on the same platform) isn’t even getting the smaller pack in the UK market.
Sorry I still don’t understand your maths. It seems to entirely be built around one specifically chosen compact/urban SUV type electric car which has a relatively small battery (it’s battery size is 50kwh/45kwh usable) and one that is built on a converted petrol platform (with all the inherent inefficiency that you mention of cost, space and weight penalties (plus what to me look like fairly poor aerodynamics)), rather than it being built on an EV specific platform such as a Leaf, Tesla or Ionic 5/6. Its not even like it’s a very popular EV; I can’t find it on any top 10 lists. If you want to use Vauxhalls range calculator why don’t you do it for the much more popular e-Corsa?
But more importantly we can see what’s happing with technology: Jeep (a sister brand in the Stellantis group) this week did a press launch for the Avenger, a small urban SUV, built on the same inefficient platform as the Mokka. It has a 54kWh/51kWh usable battery (so 13% usable larger than the mokka), with a WLTP range of 254 miles (tbc) compared to 209 miles (tbc), an increase of 21% over the Mokka.
I can absolutely guarantee that at no point in the future will we all be be driving around in cars with the same specification as the Mokka does today. By 2035 when the full ban comes in some folk who want an urban SUV may go for something like the Mokka. But by 2035 it will have a much bigger range because all its rivals will. Otherwise it won’t exist.
The other part of your maths is based on a flow rate of 6000 cars on the M5. I don’t dispute this figure at all, but I do dispute that 6000 per hour are doing a journey longer than the range of the Mokka. The vast vast majority aren’t.
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We travel quite often to see family and that requires us to travel 210 miles, chances are with any car with a range of 200 miles would only need one charge, as whilst sections would be at 70mph, the majority of our travel would be more likely to average 50mph.
However, at Exeter we'd probably stop at IKEA rather than services. Why, well they aren't all that different in terms of delay due to the stop, yet the food costs are much lower.
According to here:
IKEA Exeter charging point - Zap-Map
IKEA Exeter electric vehicle charging point located at Ikea Way, Exeter, Devon, EX2 7SA
There's 3 chargers (2 with 2 connectors).
Of course we also tend to travel late (we'd be getting to the Exeter area about 8 to 9pm) and so traffic trends to be less busy.
To illiterate this, we once went down that way on the Friday of a bank holiday weekend, other family members took the afternoon off work and sat in traffic for hours, we were delayed but only by about 30 minutes as the vast majority of the traffic had dispersed by then.
Our kids will happily sleep in the car, so arriving to family a bit later at (say) midnight isn't an issue for us, especially if it allows us to avoid the peak times for car charging.
Of course another option would be to stop short of Exeter for a small top up and then a second stop soon after for another.
For those heading from the M4 direction, there's other services along the M5. For example someone heading to Truro they could stop at Cullompton and only need 102 miles of range (obviously all those heading to Plymouth, Bodmin and the many other places shorter than this would also be within this range).
As such the demand at Exeter services is likely to be significantly less than the 500 figure.
We travel quite often to see family and that requires us to travel 210 miles, chances are with any car with a range of 200 miles would only need one charge, as whilst sections would be at 70mph, the majority of our travel would be more likely to average 50mph.
However, at Exeter we'd probably stop at IKEA rather than services. Why, well they aren't all that different in terms of delay due to the stop, yet the food costs are much lower.
According to here:
IKEA Exeter charging point - Zap-Map
IKEA Exeter electric vehicle charging point located at Ikea Way, Exeter, Devon, EX2 7SAwww.zap-map.com
There's 3 chargers (2 with 2 connectors).
Of course we also tend to travel late (we'd be getting to the Exeter area about 8 to 9pm) and so traffic trends to be less busy.
To illiterate this, we once went down that way on the Friday of a bank holiday weekend, other family members took the afternoon off work and sat in traffic for hours, we were delayed but only by about 30 minutes as the vast majority of the traffic had dispersed by then.
Our kids will happily sleep in the car, so arriving to family a bit later at (say) midnight isn't an issue for us, especially if it allows us to avoid the peak times for car charging.
Of course another option would be to stop short of Exeter for a small top up and then a second stop soon after for another.
For those heading from the M4 direction, there's other services along the M5. For example someone heading to Truro they could stop at Cullompton and only need 102 miles of range (obviously all those heading to Plymouth, Bodmin and the many other places shorter than this would also be within this range).
As such the demand at Exeter services is likely to be significantly less than the 500 figure.
That all sounds perfectly sensible but surely you’d just buy a car that meets your needs? If you’re regularly travelling 210 miles you’d buy a car with a range that meets that criteria in the real world. Obviously these tend to be at the more expensive end of the market currently (£40k+, MG4 extended range should be cheaper) so if can’t afford this you may continue buy a hybrid up till 2035 (or a second hand EV capable of doing that). But by 2035 all new family cars will have models with a range of 300 miles (I expect more) as well as 800 volt (or higher) architecture meaning super fast charging. Lightyear is claiming their 2 will have a range of 500 miles and cost less than £40K. I don’t believe either of these things will happen in the real world but it’s pretty obvious where technology is heading, and it’s not 500 charging points at every service station.
Hopefully more cars, even with smaller batteries, will support faster charging speeds so that can help reduce the time needed to charge (and as a consequence, require fewer charging bays). A lot of work has been done to reduce the impact of fast charging, and not everyone needs to charge even to 80%, let alone 100% on a long journey if they are going to take breaks anyway (toilet, coffee etc).
Then there's work on induction charging, which might be a bit slower but allow entire car parks to be enabled and just give small top ups whenever you stop for food, shopping etc.
And the fact that most people will still be able to charge at the start or end of their journey and not on the way because not everyone does crazy mileages.
Another option, although I'm not convinced, are swappable batteries. There are benefits, but I am not sure many people would want to potentially have a defective battery pack given to them on a swap and be stuck with them. Now if there's some sort of rental/lease involved and protections, maybe, but how would you know the condition of the battery being put in your car? Presumably you wouldn't always change it, so what if you're lumbered with a sub-standard battery? I believe there are some serious trials in some countries, but I am not a fan (unless I've missed lots of obvious things).
It's probably every 2 months in average, so whilst a longer range car would be ideal, it would depend on the cost difference.
The point I was making was even with current (which would be a reasonable number of second hand cars in a few years) range of 200 miles a good number of people could still avoid charging at the services at Exeter.
Snow1964
Established Member
Not a very practical mix for a Park and Ride site, where most people will park, connect and come back many hours later.
You need hundreds of lower power chargers where they expect customer to be off site for many hours, or even whole day.
Bit pointless if they expect customer to move their car after 30-60 minutes, but they have taken a bus to city centre for the day.
Part of the solution to charger hogging will be a non-charging penalty and or a (much) higher charge for charging above, say, 85%.
reddragon
Established Member
FastNed and expensive on the rapids on Zapmap 73p/kw
If I was you, doing a regular longer journeys of 200 odd miles, I would simply wait till cars with an appropriate range were in my budget. That kind of range is easily achievable by many mid-top tier EVs today and it wont be long before family cars at the lower end of the market can also do this.
Although the Tesla Model S is a high spec car, it a good example of the advancement of EVs and technology.
Year, model, range
2016, 60d, 215 miles
2023, Dual motor, 350 miles
Both have the same basic body style (so no significant aerodynamic advances) and both weigh around the same (2.6t). The improvement in range is due to improvements such as larger batteries which are lighter per kilo and improved motor efficiency.
reddragon
Established Member
The MG4 LR is already there at £28k