ATW Strike info (thread not for staff bashing)

[313103]

Lets also remember one other factor.

If it wasn't for the industrial relations legislation introduced by the 1979-1997 Conservative government, there would probaly be few if any trains in Wales at all on the strike days, as ATW's ASLEF members would have been free to picket Virgin and FGW depots who's drivers also work over their routes. Fortunately, secondary picketing and sympathy stike action is now illegal.

I would like to see where sympathy action by other companies is made the same way as sympathy strike action ILLEGAL. In that way a company like ATW cannot use any staff for strike breaking purpose from another Arriva company. Then it would be a level playing field.

 

[merlodlliw]

ATW are not running buses on the Bidston line Bob.

Thanks for that IV53, have seen the site, and complained to Wrexham Council who pay for 6 of the 12 services on Sundays.

I can not understand why ATW will not run buses on services the Councils pay total subsidy for.
Conwy valley is another example where the buses which run in place of trains on winter Sundays have been stopped yet again

Bob

 

[Mr D River73]

The next proposed strike being the 12th march will fall on the same rest day pattern as the last strike, so those who were rest day on the last strike, will also be rd on the next one should it go ahead.

 

[Sir Topham Hat]

The next proposed strike being the 12th march will fall on the same rest day pattern as the last strike, so those who were rest day on the last strike, will also be rd on the next one should it go ahead.

This isn't entirely true. I wasn't on a RD last time but will be for the next one. It will vary from depot to depot.

 

[seagull]

Don't think it's been mentioned here, but:

The talks yesterday which ended in continued stalemate consisted of ATW offering an 'improvement' from Time+1/4 to Time+1/3 for Sundays, and of some kind of guarantee that the first 'x' names in a 'Sunday Off' book would be guaranteed to have it off, even if cover could not be found.
This would actually not be a bad solution to one of the major sticking points about the Committed Sunday... except that:

ATW insisted that the deal as above would only be on offer if ASLEF accepted it there and then, without asking/balloting its membership. Given that a fundamental part of the Union rules is that members must be balloted on changes to terms and conditions, one wonders how ATW thought this would ever get through. Needless to say, it didn't.

 

[merlodlliw]

Don't think it's been mentioned here, but:

The talks yesterday which ended in continued stalemate consisted of ATW offering an 'improvement' from Time+1/4 to Time+1/3 for Sundays, and of some kind of guarantee that the first 'x' names in a 'Sunday Off' book would be guaranteed to have it off, even if cover could not be found.
This would actually not be a bad solution to one of the major sticking points about the Committed Sunday... except that:

ATW insisted that the deal as above would only be on offer if ASLEF accepted it there and then, without asking/balloting its membership. Given that a fundamental part of the Union rules is that members must be balloted on changes to terms and conditions, one wonders how ATW thought this would ever get through. Needless to say, it didn't.

Could not Aslef have taken it, subject to ratification by the membership to keep the trains running. This around the houses situation is no good to anyone, and the passengers are getting fed up with it all. I understand T&C but there are ways of getting the problem solved,the two sides must be close to settlement,

Bob

 

[HSTfan!!!]

and the passengers are getting fed up with it all.

They're not the only ones.

 

[seagull]

Could not Aslef have taken it, subject to ratification by the membership to keep the trains running.

If they'd been allowed to I expect they might have - but I understand that the only way ATW would allow it was for an on-the-spot 'yes' answer.

It will be a good thing when this is all done and dusted, hopefully sooner than later.

 

[1V53]

I can confirm that Seagull, Stan Moran said so himself on the radio this am. It is absolutely disgusting that ATW could think Aslef could accept anything altering terms and conditions without consulting the members. Aslef offered to suspend the strike until they had balloted the members but ATW wanted an answer there and then.

So those criticising the staff, these are the sort of people they are dealing with.

Also can confirm those working last Monday wouldnt necessarily be working next Saturday but on a three week four day rota there are bound to be people who cop for 2 out of 3 strike days! I fail to see how those on a 4 day week can be RD both times though unless you have extra rd's in the link or the pattern is all to cock.

 

[rodders133]

Aslef would love to accept that deal if they could get away with it. There have been Union/staff meetings relatively recently. They got heated to say the least, but the main point the staff were getting across to the union is there is no way they should ever accept anything on our behalf where terms and conditions were affected.
If Aslef accepted this, it would start world war 3, and Aslef would lose a lot of members.

Aslef should not have even offered to take this `improved` offer to a ballot, as the improvement is so slight, its neither here nor there.
The next strike date is on 12th March, this coincides with the six nations rugby. There will be no trains Sat or Sun. I do not know how ATW can let this go ahead.
I predict, but may well be wrong that ATW will change their mind next week about allowing the `improved` offer to go to a ballot, so they can avoid the chaos at the weekend, drag it all out for another few weeks while the members are balloted.

FWIW, Aslef asked ATW to make a lesser offer and to withdraw the Sunday commitment, ATW refused and said there would be no offer without the Sunday commitment, so when ATW say in the press, they have done everything in their power to stop the strike, the reality is, all they have to do is knock 2.5% off the offer, which is what is being offered for the Sunday commitment, and the strike will be called off immediately.

I am staggered that Aslef offered to take this `improved` offer to a ballot. This should have been rejected immediately imo.

 

[Sir Topham Hat]

Aslef would love to accept that deal if they could get away with it. There have been Union/staff meetings relatively recently. They got heated to say the least, but the main point the staff were getting across to the union is there is no way they should ever accept anything on our behalf where terms and conditions were affected.
If Aslef accepted this, it would start world war 3, and Aslef would lose a lot of members.

Aslef should not have even offered to take this 'improved' offer to a ballot, as the improvement is so slight, its neither here nor there.
The next strike date is on 12th March, this coincides with the six nations rugby. There will be no trains Sat or Sun. I do not know how ATW can let this go ahead.
I predict, but may well be wrong that ATW will change their mind next week about allowing the 'improved' offer to go to a ballot, so they can avoid the chaos at the weekend, drag it all out for another few weeks while the members are balloted.

FWIW, Aslef asked ATW to make a lesser offer and to withdraw the Sunday commitment, ATW refused and said there would be no offer without the Sunday commitment, so when ATW say in the press, they have done everything in their power to stop the strike, the reality is, all they have to do is knock 2.5% off the offer, which is what is being offered for the Sunday commitment, and the strike will be called off immediately.

I am staggered that Aslef offered to take this 'improved' offer to a ballot. This should have been rejected immediately imo.

You sir, have hit the nail on the head.

 

[CarterUSM]

Aslef would love to accept that deal if they could get away with it. There have been Union/staff meetings relatively recently. They got heated to say the least, but the main point the staff were getting across to the union is there is no way they should ever accept anything on our behalf where terms and conditions were affected.
If Aslef accepted this, it would start world war 3, and Aslef would lose a lot of members.

Aslef should not have even offered to take this `improved` offer to a ballot, as the improvement is so slight, its neither here nor there.
The next strike date is on 12th March, this coincides with the six nations rugby. There will be no trains Sat or Sun. I do not know how ATW can let this go ahead.
I predict, but may well be wrong that ATW will change their mind next week about allowing the `improved` offer to go to a ballot, so they can avoid the chaos at the weekend, drag it all out for another few weeks while the members are balloted.

FWIW, Aslef asked ATW to make a lesser offer and to withdraw the Sunday commitment, ATW refused and said there would be no offer without the Sunday commitment, so when ATW say in the press, they have done everything in their power to stop the strike, the reality is, all they have to do is knock 2.5% off the offer, which is what is being offered for the Sunday commitment, and the strike will be called off immediately.

I am staggered that Aslef offered to take this `improved` offer to a ballot. This should have been rejected immediately imo.

Indeed they should have! Bring it up at your next branch meeting. This is where I have my beef with the union movement as a whole, LISTEN to your members!

 

[1V53]

I'm not so sure. It was 70% in favour of strike but turnout was 80%. Many are concerned about the inability to chuck in a Sunday, and with guaranteed number of opt-outs and another £12 ish for a 7 hour Sunday this would satisfy some. Also with the 20% who didn't vote clearly not feeling strongly enough to vote, but now losing money and possibly now would use their vote... I'm not so sure the result would be so clear cut next time?

 

[Gareth Marston]

The next proposed strike being the 12th march will fall on the same rest day pattern as the last strike, so those who were rest day on the last strike, will also be rd on the next one should it go ahead.

Significance of 12th is Wales V Ireland at the Millennium stadium. Next date in Stans diary will be when Wales plays England at Football.

 

[rodders133]

I'm not so sure. It was 70% in favour of strike but turnout was 80%. Many are concerned about the inability to chuck in a Sunday, and with guaranteed number of opt-outs and another £12 ish for a 7 hour Sunday this would satisfy some. Also with the 20% who didn't vote clearly not feeling strongly enough to vote, but now losing money and possibly now would use their vote... I'm not so sure the result would be so clear cut next time?

Unfortunately, I agree with you. If the dispute went on for another few weeks, and ATW re-offered the original offer of time and a quarter I think it would be close, as people are getting tired of it and just want it to end.

Also, it has been going on for so long now that the back payment would be significant, and this could also sway some people.

ATW`s usual tactic is to make a `final offer`, coming up to Christmas and guarantee the backpay going in before Christmas. This is a great strategy, hats off to them.

I am sometimes more worried about my own union than the company.

When the first offer was put out with standard time on a Sunday, aslef highly recommended the deal. Its members went against them, and the offer has been upped to time and a quarter, then to time and a third, so in effect, the staff alone have negotiated a better deal than their union.

Why would Aslef want this deal to go through so much? If anyone knows why they would want this, please enlighten me.
Am I just paranoid wondering if there is something bigger going on here?

 

[whoosh]

I dare say the company have refused to let ASLEF ballot it's members so that they can then offer it again in an "11th hour" meeting and then somewhat triumphantly declare to the travelling public, "We've managed to get them to call off the strike for the time being, thank God, with a very generous pay offer of x%, and it means that passengers now won't be inconvenienced on the day of the Rugby match," completely failing to mention that the deal will have strings attached, be over two years not one, and is running later than any train at some months overdue. And also not mention their ultimatum in the earlier meeting, which if it had not insisted on, would've suspended the strike straight away whilst a ballot was conducted.

Political manoeuvering. Unfortunately, the public see "they're threatening to go on strike again," and not the management's manoeuvers like this.

 

[TDK]

Unfortunately, I agree with you. If the dispute went on for another few weeks, and ATW re-offered the original offer of time and a quarter I think it would be close, as people are getting tired of it and just want it to end.

Also, it has been going on for so long now that the back payment would be significant, and this could also sway some people.

ATW's usual tactic is to make a 'final offer', coming up to Christmas and guarantee the backpay going in before Christmas. This is a great strategy, hats off to them.

I am sometimes more worried about my own union than the company.

When the first offer was put out with standard time on a Sunday, aslef highly recommended the deal. Its members went against them, and the offer has been upped to time and a quarter, then to time and a third, so in effect, the staff alone have negotiated a better deal than their union.

Why would Aslef want this deal to go through so much? If anyone knows why they would want this, please enlighten me.
Am I just paranoid wondering if there is something bigger going on here?

If Sudays are in the working week or committed ATW or any company for that matter would need more employes - more subs and members for the union, this may not be the answer but that could only be the reason for opting for Sundays in - however originally the drivers were asking for Parity with XC, if you want Parity you cannot then say we want the pay to be nearer XC but do not want to accept their conditions. Catch 22 situation here. I cannot see this dispute ending soon, it is going to drag on.

 

[1V53]

I don't see how them being committed overtime means you need more employees?

I'd agree to a point re the parity issue, although I believe XC are on much more than 39k, and by this time next year will have had another 5% or so. So ATW are moving the pay up by a little in real terms but want a big chunk of conditions for very little money.

I don't understand what they have gained by refusing to let the union suspend the action, take the offer away and let members vote on it?

 

[TDK]

I don't see how them being committed overtime means you need more employees?

I'd agree to a point re the parity issue, although I believe XC are on much more than 39k, and by this time next year will have had another 5% or so. So ATW are moving the pay up by a little in real terms but want a big chunk of conditions for very little money.

I don't understand what they have gained by refusing to let the union suspend the action, take the offer away and let members vote on it?

If Sundays are in the working week 1V53 on a 4 day week they will need more employees, however ASLE&F are not looking for this at this stage however it is the first stage to Sundays being rostered as part of the working week. If the drivers had not mentioned parity in the first place maybe ATW woulkd not have put the Sunday thing into the original pay deal - know knows?

What ATW have gained is the propaganda and the public view on this, all the public will see is "drivers out again and have rejected an even higher pay deal" ATW are not silly they knew all too well that ASLE$F could not accet a "there and then" decision and this is why it was offered. If this happens and ATW drop the Sundays issue what will the guards do if ATW try this on with them? I suspect the RMT will ballot for strike action.

 

[1V53]

Guards pay offer already has committed Sundays in it. RMT is currently holding branch meetings to consult members. The company wants to railroad the Sundays in.

Obviously putting Sundays as part of the working week would need more staff but ATW don't want that as it will cost too much. I was referring to you saying "If Sudays (sic) are in the working week or committed ATW or any company for that matter would need more employes (sic)" - committed Sundays won't need any more staff.

 

[merlodlliw]

NR website for next Saturday, poor suffering passengers again.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service_disruptions/today.html


Bob

 

[Mr D River73]

I reckon ATW will grant Aslef it's ballot, even if it only buys them some time and allows the Rugby to go ahead.

As for the comment i made earlier about rest day patterns, i mis-calculated. Out of the 45 drivers on a 4-Day Week roster, 15 Drivers were RD on the 28th and 15 Drivers would be RD on 12th ( Not same 15 as previous strike ). There will, however, be 15 Drivers, who will have been rostered to work also on both days, and hence will lose a 2nd days pay, but 30 Drivers will remain on just the one day. Sorry for the error.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

The stupid thing is, when you actually explain to passengers why the drivers are striking, they are usually on the side of the driver (spoke to a few at the weekend) the unions need to get out there and tell the public the facts, as they are getting all the bad press at the moment.

 

[Flamingo]

I've had a loojk at the Carmarthen and Swansea replacement buses and it doesn't look like there are veyr many of them. There are a couple of HST's in the afternoon as well though!

FGW run the majority of trains on the Carmarthen - Cardiff corridor on any Sunday, franchise is that FGW run 13 or 14 trains Swa - CDF, ATW run 7.

 

[Greenback]

FGW run the majority of trains on the Carmarthen - Cardiff corridor on any Sunday, franchise is that FGW run 14 trains Swa - CDF, ATW run 7.

It's Llanelli I'm more interested in (as usual) and there are two FGW trains each way!

 

[Flamingo]

It's Llanelli I'm more interested in (as usual) and there are two FGW trains each way!

I thought there was more than that. 3 each way at least, I'm sure.

 

[merlodlliw]

It's Llanelli I'm more interested in (as usual) and there are two FGW trains each way!

As North Wales rail weekly website sees it, scroll down

http://www.nwrail.org.uk/nwnews.htm plus pics & story of VT assisting suffering passengers with extra capacity last Sunday

Pinched your reply Greenback, so Charlie Humes site does not get hidden

Bob

 

[TDK]

As North Wales rail weekly website sees it, scroll down

http://www.nwrail.org.uk/nwnews.htm plus pics & story of VT assisting suffering passengers with extra capacity last Sunday

Pinched your reply Greenback, so Charlie Humes site does not get hidden

Bob

from the site:

as drivers from the Aslef union all chose the option resting on the Day of Rest which is optional in their contracts

I belive the action on Sunday was industrial action from the drivers and not a block of not working their Sundays

 

[Pacerpilot]

No, ASLEF have banned all non-contractual overtme, including Sunday and Restday working.

 

[1V53]

Technically Sunday was industrial action as the union have implemented a Sunday and RD (overtime) ban. So it's official. However I disagree that on previous ("Unofficial") Sunday's it's been 'Unofficial industrial action' as it's optional if you want to work on that day.