Network Rail makes new offer to the RMT union

[Annetts key]

The changes from the previous offer are to leave for registered carers and long service awards. More notable though (in my view anyway) is that the union seems to have now changed to an admission that Modernising Maintenance is happening whether we like it or not, although what that'll actually look like is yet to be seen. Prior to Christmas there was a narrative from the union that we might be able to stop it, and that's what mattered to most people. Now there's resignation that it's happening regardless I think support for more strikes has massively dwindled.

I’m not sure where people are getting this idea that MM is coming in as is regardless. The whole point of the industrial action is to get the company to come back to negotiate properly rather than just telling the RMT team what they are intending to do.

The company are always going to put their side to employees to try to get them to back down.

There will eventually be a negotiated agreement.

Only 40 years?! I don't know the exact age but the stuff I've been working on a lot recently is mentioned in reference book I've got that was printed in 1950... Unsurprisingly they're not the most reliable in the world, but are thankfully simple to work on due to their age.

There are still cables in use that date from the late 1960s in some areas…
Some signalling on the GWML dates from the 1970s, and that’s excluding Devon and Cornwall.
Exeter PSB and Westbury PSB date from the mid 1980s

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Feb 2023 ==

It's been 4 weeks since the last strikes and we've now been given a offer that's basically the one we could have had 8 weeks ago so what was the point of them strikes or of having any more. What has the union been doing for the last month? I've seen our union leaders talking about bringing the government down but unless they pay me my full wage to strike then forget it

It’s never, ever been about bringing the government down. Some union people may talk about this, but they darn well know that it’s extremely unlikely that the government would dissolve Parliament.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Feb 2023 ==

There has been extensive consultation Nationally, and local consultation is underway.

Consultation is not negotiation.

Lack of agreement not helped by the union policy of ‘nothing is agreed until it all is agreed’.

Last year, the company agreed to ‘nothing is agreed until it all is agreed’. But later changed their mind.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Feb 2023 ==

Correct - it isn't as good as the TOC offer but it is better than the nowt NR staff had before!

Careful there. Existing staff (‘protected’) from before BR was split up still get their BR travel facilities.
Some Network Rail staff can take advantage of joint agreements with the relevant train operating companies. For example, Network Rail staff on (employed by, not working on) Western Route already have a discount scheme because there is a joint agreement with GWR.

 

[Thirteen]

I always roll my eyes when union leaders talk about taking down the Government.

 

[DarloRich]

Careful there. Existing staff (‘protected’) from before BR was split up still get their BR travel facilities.
Some Network Rail staff can take advantage of joint agreements with the relevant train operating companies. For example, Network Rail staff on (employed by, not working on) Western Route already have a discount scheme because their is a joint agreement with GWR.

fair point: most staff who started after 1995 (?) get nowt.

The numbers of protected staff employed by NR are falling quite quickly now as they get closer to retirement.

 

[Trothy]

December RPI rate was 13.4%. The current offer is nowhere near that. That said, I personally believe if the offer gets put to a referendum, the result might be closer than some expect. Appetite for striking is waning and many staff have already lost thousands since the start of the dispute with some starting to return to work on strike days.

Historically we have used November's RPI to calculate salary increase. Which means we are falling quite some way off inflation as you say.

Nov 20 RPI - 0.9% - Jan 21 pay offer 0%
Nov 21 RPI - 7.1% - Jan 22 pay offer 5%
Nov 22 RPI - 14% - Jan 23 pay offer 4%

 

[the sniper]

I always roll my eyes when union leaders talk about taking down the Government.

I roll my eyes when people here talk about it.

 

[ROCsteadycrew]

Bringing things up to date, many signalling staff are questioning the point of further strike action. Maintenance staff have been returning to work and, as already mentioned, management are pushing through their changes regardless.

This sums up a change of attitude I've noticed too. Before Christmas the majority seemed to be willing to continue with strike action and feeling positive, now that has changed. I feel a vote on the current deal would be very close...

 

[Bald Rick]

Consultation is not negotiation.

I didn’t say it was. I was responding to the poster who said the changes were being imposed without consultation, which is not the case.

As you know, there has been negotiation too - extensively. What there hasn’t been is agreement.

The numbers of protected staff employed by NR are falling quite quickly now as they get closer to retirement.

That has been the case for a long time. As far back as 2004 fewer than a third of NR staff had safeguarded travel (source, the then Chairman!). Now it will be fewer than 5%.

Historically we have used November's RPI to calculate salary increase. Which means we are falling quite some way off inflation as you say.

Nov 20 RPI - 0.9% - Jan 21 pay offer 0%
Nov 21 RPI - 7.1% - Jan 22 pay offer 5%
Nov 22 RPI - 14% - Jan 23 pay offer 4%

RPI is not now the Government’s standard measure of inflation. It is CPI.
The relevant numbers are 0.6%, 4.6% and 9.3%.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Feb 2023 ==

I feel a vote on the current deal would be very close...

It will be interesting to see if the RMT NEC is brave enough to put it to a vote.

I wonder how many people will leave the RMT if it doesn’t, and more strikes are announced. I expect many will hand in their membership cards (quite a few already have).

 

[Trothy]

RPI is not now the Government’s standard measure of inflation. It is CPI.
The relevant numbers are 0.6%, 4.6% and 9.3%.

That's been the case for a while but that doesn't change the fact that RPI has been used for Network Rail salary negotiation, (the idea of using CPI was rejected for the pay deal back in 2019) so regardless of what the government chooses to use to describe inflation, our salary increases have been based on RPI.

 

[the sniper]

I expect many will hand in their membership cards (quite a few already have).

How many? How many already have?

 

[Annetts key]

RPI is not now the Government’s standard measure of inflation. It is CPI.
The relevant numbers are 0.6%, 4.6% and 9.3%.

Well, it depends on which subject is being discussed, as the government still use RPI for some things…

The point that I think @Trothy was trying to make, is that (before COVID19) previously Network Rail agreed to pay rises based on the November RPI figure.

 

[Facing Back]

That's been the case for a while but that doesn't change the fact that RPI has been used for Network Rail salary negotiation, (the idea of using CPI was rejected for the pay deal back in 2019) so regardless of what the government chooses to use to describe inflation, our salary increases have been based on RPI.

Rejected by whom? The RMT or NR? (Or both?)

*edit - answered thank you

 

[greyman42]

Personally I feel there hasn't been enough changed from the last offer to make it even worth putting this to the membership via a referendum and would hope that the NEC rejects the offer outright.

Should it not be for the membership to decide if the offer is acceptable or not?

 

[Trothy]

Should it not be for the membership to decide if the offer is acceptable or not?

So we should have a referendum everytime NR tweaks a line in the offer?

Do you expect your MP to hold a referendum on every motion in Parliament within their constituency?

They've asked for feedback from the membership. They'll get that and then the NEC will make a decision.

 

[greyman42]

So we should have a referendum everytime NR tweaks a line in the offer?

What tweaks are you referring to?

 

[Bald Rick]

That's been the case for a while but that doesn't change the fact that RPI has been used for Network Rail salary negotiation, (the idea of using CPI was rejected for the pay deal back in 2019) so regardless of what the government chooses to use to describe inflation, our salary increases have been based on RPI.

Yes they were. And now they’re not.

How many? How many already have?

Obviously I don’t have the number, as employers do not know, officially, who is in the union and who isn’t. only the RMT will know that.

However, I have heard multiple reports of this happening, across the country, and in some case entire teams doing it. Some of these reports have come from reps. Of course this is anecdotal and what managers / reps are being told may not be true. But it’s more than a handful. A lot more.

 

[Facing Back]

I’m not sure where people are getting this idea that MM is coming in as is regardless. The whole point of the industrial action is to get the company to come back to negotiate properly rather than just telling the RMT team what they are intending to do.

The company are always going to put their side to employees to try to get them to back down.

There will eventually be a negotiated agreement.

I get the idea that MM is coming in regardless because I keep reading here from several sources that is exactly what is happening at the moment. I am happy to be corrected if that is not the case.

Hopefully there will be a negotiated agreement, but that generally means that neither side is happy with every part of it.

 

[Bald Rick]

So we should have a referendum everytime NR tweaks a line in the offer?

Maybe, maybe not. But it would be good to have a referendum when all those in the dispute fully understand the offer in front of them. Feedback suggests this was not the case during the last referendum.

 

[Trothy]

What tweaks are you referring to?

Well the latest offer has made an improvement for leave for registered carers (welcome - but affects a tiny, tiny proportion of members)

Along with a change to long service awards, awards given at 10, 20, 30 and 40 years service instead of a single award at 25. (No-one cares about this?!)

 

[class 9]

I always roll my eyes when union leaders talk about taking down the Government.

Which rail union leaders have actually said this?

 

[Bald Rick]

No-one cares about this?!)

How do you know?

I spoke to my team about it today, and they thought it was a good thing.

 

[gazzaa2]

As am RMT member, I am beginning to feel that we have wrung every drop we can out of this government. They will continue to side-step negotiations until their anti-strike bill becomes law. Further strikes will only hit us in the pocket, despite the deal on offer being a very poor one.

There'll be a change of government at some point next year. At this point it could rumble on until then.

'Taking down the government' basically means they'll lose the next election (which they will anyway) so what about the next 18 months?

 

[Trothy]

Yes they were. And now they’re not.

Says who? You?

The numbers being banded around are lower than both CPI and RPI so we should be using CPI now? Nope.

 

[Facing Back]

There'll be a change of government at some point next year. At this point it could rumble on until then.

The members will be happy with no pay rise at all for 18 months as well as the maintenance changes being imposed?

 

[Trothy]

How do you know?

I spoke to my team about it today, and they thought it was a good thing.

I spoke to about 30 signallers, several SSM's and several S+T members of staff who all felt that making changes to this was pointless.

 

[Facing Back]

'Taking down the government' basically means they'll lose the next election (which they will anyway) so what about the next 18 months?

If the government loses the next general election do you really think that the rail strike will the major catalyst for it?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Feb 2023 ==

Lack of agreement not helped by the union policy of ‘nothing is agreed until it all is agreed’.

It is annoying but you know it is common when there is little trusts between the sides or one side is giving up a series of smaller items in order to chip away at a "red line".

The government is still using it with ongoing Brexit negotiations.

 

[Broucek]

December RPI rate was 13.4%. The current offer is nowhere near that. That said, I personally believe if the offer gets put to a referendum, the result might be closer than some expect. Appetite for striking is waning and many staff have already lost thousands since the start of the dispute with some starting to return to work on strike days.

I'm a pay consultant. NOBODY is getting even close to inflation in this market. 4-6% is the norm in private sector

 

[Facing Back]

Well the latest offer has made an improvement for leave for registered carers (welcome - but affects a tiny, tiny proportion of members)

Along with a change to long service awards, awards given at 10, 20, 30 and 40 years service instead of a single award at 25. (No-one cares about this?!)

It seems to me to be quite a clever offer.

NR knows it only needs to change the minds of a few percent of the union members so it seems to be presenting ideas such as the carers, the travel and the awards which will appeal to some and not cost very much at all.

It isn't designed to change the minds of staff who have strong objections to the offer.

 

[the sniper]

It seems to me to be quite a clever offer.

NR knows it only needs to change the minds of a few percent of the union members so it seems to be presenting ideas such as the carers, the travel and the awards which will appeal to some and not cost very much at all.

It isn't designed to change the minds of staff who have strong objections to the offer.

We can certainly see some of their managers know how to play the game.

 

[Facing Back]

I'm a pay consultant. NOBODY is getting even close to inflation in this market. 4-6% is the norm in private sector

I'm aware of a very few outliers where they are - but these are companies who increase salaries to staff year on year anyway as they gain experience and become more valuable.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Feb 2023 ==

We can certainly see some of their managers know how to play the game.

Do you object to that?

 

[Annetts key]

However, I have heard multiple reports of this happening, across the country, and in some case entire teams doing it. Some of these reports have come from reps. Of course this is anecdotal and what managers / reps are being told may not be true. But it’s more than a handful. A lot more.

Members who don’t want to take industrial action often say that they are, or intend leaving. But not all of them do. Sometimes, unions gain members because the union is seen to be fighting for members.

Both RMT HO and branches will know, as the current membership is kept under review.

I get the idea that MM is coming in regardless because I keep reading here from several sources that is exactly what is happening at the moment. I am happy to be corrected if that is not the case.

Local consultation is indeed underway. But that does not mean that there cannot be changes at national level. More than once, some local consultation meetings have been postponed because of further talks in London. And the numbers of staff that some routes/regions want is different to the figures from the ‘model’ used at national level. More posts (and therefore staff) are being retained. The company are therefore effectively admitting that the data they have fed into their sausage machine, sorry ‘model’ is inaccurate (See also GIGO). Yet, at national meetings last year, they did not appear to accept this when the union questioned how good their data and their ‘model’ was.

Maybe, maybe not. But it would be good to have a referendum when all those in the dispute fully understand the offer in front of them. Feedback suggests this was not the case during the last referendum.

Yes, it works really well when your employer implies that you, their safety critical employee are not capable of understanding their ‘offer’…

Just like last time round the company were saying that it’s a final offer. Funny that now there is another offer.

Well the latest offer has made an improvement for leave for registered carers (welcome - but affects a tiny, tiny proportion of members)

Along with a change to long service awards, awards given at 10, 20, 30 and 40 years service instead of a single award at 25. (No-one cares about this?!)

There is definitely a long service award at 25, but I thought there was also (already) one at 40. Not that I’m sure mind…

Anyway, I would rather not have MM or have an increase in my wages than have a meal out with my manager, a small gift and a certificate or ornament.