Extending the Northern Line to Clapham Junction

[fandroid]

The principle of this has probably been discussed before, but according to the BBC website, Wandsworth Council are apparently looking into whether they should fund a pre-feasibility study into a Tube extension to Clapham Junction

Northern line at Clapham Junction being considered

Wandsworth Council is set to investigate extending the underground network.

www.bbc.co.uk

The Northern Line being extended to Clapham Junction is an option being considered as part of a masterplan for the south London area.
Wandsworth Council is looking at extending the underground network as the station presents a "long-standing challenge".
A further council report said extending the Northern Line would link Clapham Junction to the London Underground and provide "significant new and improved journey opportunities".
A TfL spokesperson said: "There are no current plans to extend the Northern line further to Clapham Junction; however, the design of the Northern line extension means a further extension could be possible in the future.

 

[Taunton]

As this has been taken to quite a detailed stage previously, one wonders why a "strapped for cash" council should repeat the exercise.

I seem to recall the principal reason for the extension ending in the middle of nowhere instead of Clapham Junction was not an engineering one, and certainly not a passenger demand or convenience one, but a turf war between TfL and SWR/DfT (or their predecessors) that the resulting division of revenue in favour of TfL would leave the others very much out of pocket.

 

[Doppelganger]

I thought there were capacity issues too.

Lots of people piling onto the Northern Line which then heads into central London means that those served further up the line will struggle to get on.

 

[AzureOtsu]

Imo I feel like an extension is only feasible capacity wise if Camden town gets remodelled to finally allow the northern line to split. Having crowds cram onto the occasional BPS branch train to get fed into central London would create bursts of congestion which could be mitigated by a higher service frequency that the split would allow for.

 

[endicomark69@g]

In any "same" Transport Planning environment this would have been part of the Power Station extension, and funded accordingly - "forcing" the Developers to commit to being part of the package in return for them keeping their tax-sweetners and not looking too closely while they fiddled the Social Housing aspect of their whole scheme. They were always going to do this (Social flats becoming a "Whoops, we miscounted!") anyway so they may as well actually work for the Public Good for a change.

But just like the No-Brainer extension to the BLoo this will be left to dangle as a nice-to-have aspiration up against the DfT/Treasury desire to spend as little as possible for the next decade in London.

And are we REALLY prepared to accept "It'll get too crowded/can't do it!" at a pivotal location like this as a valid reason for NOT joining up what will otherwise be an under utilised boondoggle providing little value that "somehow" managed to get built during a time of retrenchment?

The same "argument" could have been made about the Overground at CJ once upon a time, but that seems to be coping just fine.

Also CR2 - while even this type of Govt loves the idea of chucking ridiculous amounts of public subsidy at it's Friends in the Consulting and Construction Industries for two decades, it's not going to happen when HS2 is going to end up north of £100Bn (and north of Euston at this rate) and the budget for this Project would end up being similarly bloated and ridiculous.

Until The Industry can be brought a bit more in Line with reality on likely Project Expenditures (and nobody even has a clue on how to start going about doing that) NO Govt of any stripe is going to commit to green lighting yet another money pit. At least not in London.

 

[duncanp]

I thought there were capacity issues too.

Lots of people piling onto the Northern Line which then heads into central London means that those served further up the line will struggle to get on.

I can't see a point in the extension of the Northern Line to Clapham Junction.

Who would want to get the Northern Line from Clapham Junction to Waterloo when there is a perfectly adequate service from South Western Railway.

Commuters headed into Victoria can change on to the Nothern Line at Balham if they want.

 

[A0]

I can't see a point in the extension of the Northern Line to Clapham Junction.

Who would want to get the Northern Line from Clapham Junction to Waterloo when there is a perfectly adequate service from South Western Railway.

Commuters headed into Victoria can change on to the Nothern Line at Balham if they want.

Bit in bold - you mean like who would want to get the Victoria Line or Piccadilly Line from Finsbury Park to Kings Cross or the Central Line from Stratford to Liverpool Street ? (Just to give a couple of examples).

Whilst I'm unconvinced as to the merits of extending the Northern line to Clapham Junction, the argument there's a parallel National Rail service isn't a compelling one.

 

[PTR 444]

Who would want to get the Northern Line from Clapham Junction to Waterloo when there is a perfectly adequate service from South Western Railway.

Remember it’s not just about Clapham Junction to Waterloo. Many passengers will be heading beyond on the tube, and boarding an extended Northern Line rather than SWR at CLJ will avoid passengers having to transfer at the mainline concourse at WAT. This purpose is ultimately what Crossrail 2 will achieve.

The big question for CLJ to WAT passengers is whether a Northern Line extension will be quicker than SWR for that journey, factoring in the time it takes to get from street to platform and bearing in mind the mainline approach to Waterloo is a rather slow one.

 

[Domh245]

The big question for CLJ to WAT passengers is whether a Northern Line extension will be quicker than SWR for that journey, factoring in the time it takes to get from street to platform and bearing in mind the mainline approach to Waterloo is a rather slow one.

Quite a few people would end up changing at Clapham (subject to it not being too long an interchange) purely because as the terminus they'd have a much better chance of getting a seat than if joining at Waterloo.

Commuters headed into Victoria can change on to the Nothern Line at Balham if they want.

Only those on "short" distance Southern services - by my quick count there's 11 trains per hour (from the extremities of the Southern Network) which call at Clapham but non-stop Balham who would benefit from this. It'd also be beneficial for those who currently change at Balham with destinations on the Charing X branch, who would have a quicker (in theory) journey time without a need to change at Kennington

 

[PGAT]

The Charing Cross branch can also be accessed from Battersea Park - Battersea Power Station. Yes I know changing from Clapham Junction would be quicker but it also wouldn't be worth the half billion that would be spent on it.

 

[duncanp]

Bit in bold - you mean like who would want to get the Victoria Line or Piccadilly Line from Finsbury Park to Kings Cross or the Central Line from Stratford to Liverpool Street ? (Just to give a couple of examples).

Whilst I'm unconvinced as to the merits of extending the Northern line to Clapham Junction, the argument there's a parallel National Rail service isn't a compelling one.

I should imagine that Clapham Junction to Waterloo on the Northern Line will be quite a bit slower than on SWR.

Also, considering the number of SWR services that call at Clapham Junction, the Northern Line would not have the capacity to absorb all of them using the Northern Line to travel to Waterloo.

At Waterloo you have the choice of the Bakerloo. Northern and Jubilee lines for various destinations in the West End, which helps to even out the load and reduce overcrowding.

 

[zwk500]

I should imagine that Clapham Junction to Waterloo on the Northern Line will be quite a bit slower than on SWR.

But Clapham junction to Tottenham Court Rod may well be faster.

Also, considering the number of SWR services that call at Clapham Junction, the Northern Line would not have the capacity to absorb all of them using the Northern Line to travel to Waterloo.

This will be a big concern, especially as the Battersea Power Station residential development fills up.

 

[Jonny]

I thought there were capacity issues too.

Lots of people piling onto the Northern Line which then heads into central London means that those served further up the line will struggle to get on.

My understanding (partly from other users on this forum, but from various other sources) is that the main overcrowding is on the Morden branch rather than the Battersea Power Station branch (Battersea Power Station-Station is the obvious point for an extension to Clapham junction to start/join).

 

[duncanp]

This will be a big concern, especially as the Battersea Power Station residential development fills up.

I think this is the reason the extension will not proceed.

The extension was built to serve the Battersea Power Station development, and the developers and residents will not be best pleased if the trains are full of people trying to save a few minutes/trying to get a seat on a journey along the Charing Cross branch of the Northern Line.

The other reason why the extension will not proceed is that TfL are skint.

 

[Metro95]

I know it's unlikely that the Northern Line will get extended to Clapham Junction, let alone beyond, but after Clapham Junction I want the Northern Line extended further to Kingston via Wandsworth Town, East Putney, Roehampton and Kingston University.

 

[zwk500]

I know it's unlikely that the Northern Line will get extended to Clapham Junction, let alone beyond, but after Clapham Junction I want the Northern Line extended further to Kingston via Wandsworth Town, East Putney, Roehampton and Kingston University.

Do you happen to live/work/study in one of those particular locations, by any chance?

FWIW, if TfL have any cash lying around I'd far rather they spent it on the Bakerloo line to Hayes than anything with the Northern Line. Getting 4 main line paths an hour back would be rather helpful, as would the simplification of the junction arrangements.

 

[PGAT]

Very slim chance the Bakerloo will get that far. Right now Lewisham is the target but even that's in doubt now

 

[zwk500]

Very slim chance the Bakerloo will get that far. Right now Lewisham is the target but even that's in doubt now

Oh I'm well aware the chances of any major spending are at rock bottom for a long while yet.

 

[WizCastro197]

I know it's unlikely that the Northern Line will get extended to Clapham Junction, let alone beyond, but after Clapham Junction I want the Northern Line extended further to Kingston via Wandsworth Town, East Putney, Roehampton and Kingston University.

The Northern line is already very long, and can be complicated to navigate with absolutely no knowledge of it. Anyway, wouldn't a journey from Kingston to say Waterloo be quicker by train anyway?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Feb 2023 ==

My understanding (partly from other users on this forum, but from various other sources) is that the main overcrowding is on the Morden branch rather than the Battersea Power Station branch (Battersea Power Station-Station is the obvious point for an extension to Clapham junction to start/join).

Yes correct, practically very few people use the Charing Cross branch past Kennington, after that it is a ghost train almost. The Morden branch service South London's very populous areas like Clapham, Tooting , Balham, South Wimbledon etc. The Battersea extension, less so, as the area is still going through regeneration.

 

[Metro95]

Do you happen to live/work/study in one of those particular locations, by any chance?

FWIW, if TfL have any cash lying around I'd far rather they spent it on the Bakerloo line to Hayes than anything with the Northern Line. Getting 4 main line paths an hour back would be rather helpful, as would the simplification of the junction arrangements.

No, I don't live/work/study in one of those particular locations, but I would still want the Northern Line to be extended to those areas.

 

[WizCastro197]

No, I don't live/work/study in one of those particular locations, but I would still want the Northern Line to be extended to those areas.

Is it alright if I ask why? These areas already receive services to Waterloo, and I am not sure quite what the Northern line would achieve by going there?

 

[Metro95]

Is it alright if I ask why? These areas already receive services to Waterloo, and I am not sure quite what the Northern line would achieve by going there?

Because the more tube stations in South London, the better.

 

[WizCastro197]

Because the more tube stations in South London, the better.

More money is spent unesscessarily, when there is adequate rail services available, rather than taking a circuitous route to Waterloo on the tube.

 

[PGAT]

When people ask for the tube in South London 90% of the time they are actually just asking for better services from their local stations.

 

[WizCastro197]

When people ask for the tube in South London 90% of the time they are actually just asking for better services from their local stations.

Yes, which can be achieved cheaper than spending a load of money on tube extensions that take time to plan, so quicker anyway.

 

[AM9]

Aside from a few wanting more tube stations south of the river for reasons unlikely to be entertained anytime soon, where do TfL stand with respect to the agreement with the Battersea developers? Is there a time limit on the embargo against extensions?

 

[Bald Rick]

And are we REALLY prepared to accept "It'll get too crowded/can't do it!" at a pivotal location like this as a valid reason for NOT joining up what will otherwise be an under utilised boondoggle providing little value that "somehow" managed to get built during a time of retrenchment?

You can of course choose not to accept it.

However the passenger modelling was very clear - extending the Northern to Clapham Junction would overwhelm the Northern line sufficiently to cause major issues at Waterloo / London Bridge (ie cause the closure of the tube stations at peak times), and make the interchange flows at Clapham Junction itself unmanageable, requiring that station to be closed at peak times, which thus defeats the whole object.

 

[rebmcr]

Aside from a few wanting more tube stations south of the river for reasons unlikely to be entertained anytime soon, where do TfL stand with respect to the agreement with the Battersea developers? Is there a time limit on the embargo against extensions?

I think you may have jumped to your conclusion, there is no mention of any official embargo enjoyed by the BPS developers.

However the passenger modelling was very clear - extending the Northern to Clapham Junction would overwhelm the Northern line sufficiently to cause major issues at Waterloo / London Bridge (ie cause the closure of the tube stations at peak times), and make the interchange flows at Clapham Junction itself unmanageable, requiring that station to be closed at peak times, which thus defeats the whole object.

Indeed the modelling suggests that it would be viable after Crossrail 2 is built, which would offer passengers a faster route to destinations beyond Waterloo than a Northern extension — freeing it to instead provide important connections for mid-point journeys.

Crossrail 2 would at that point also provide service enhancement in places like Kingston, rendering the further extension suggested upthread somewhat unnecessary.

 

[Mikey C]

The existing fleet is stretched enough as it is, having to absorb the Battersea extension with no extra trains. And while the 95s are excellent trains, they're at midlife now and not going to get more reliable...

 

[Busaholic]

What seems to be forgotten here is that Crossrail 2 is planned to run from Clapham Junction northeastwards in the (very!) distant future, regardless of the route taken south and west of CJ. Theoretically, Crossrail 2 (or Elizabeth 2?) is still very much a planned project, so I can't see a Northern extension getting the go-ahead for this as well as the other good reasons stated.